Two Organisms, Same Govt Hysteria—Where Is the Consistency?

Six years ago, a prosecutor summed up the government’s case against a Missouri cheesemaking family: “This is not about the state’s goal to put this dairy out of business. This case is not a campaign against raw milk cheese or the raw milk movement. It is not about the defendant being subject to unfair laws. It is about protecting the health and lives of every Missourian and citizens across the nation….This cheese can potentially kill those who consume it….Our hard evidence will show there is very harmful bacteria in this cheese.”

The prosecutor was making such a dire argument about bacteria possibly killing us, despite the fact that no bacteria from the farm she was accusing had ever made anyone sick, in more than a decade of producing raw-milk cheese.

On Monday, Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly told a congressional hearing that it’s possible some terrorists have already entered the country while a court stay holding up an executive order to ban immigration from seven majority Muslim countries has been in place. No one will know until they act — or, as Kelly put it, “until the boom.”

The Homeland Securities secretary was making his warning despite the fact that no refugees or others from the seven countries targeted by the ban had been involved in an American terrorist incident, and despite the fact, by his own admission, there was no specific evidence of trouble from one of the countries .

Listening to the arguments in favor of the immigrant ban over the last week, I have felt a lot like I did listening to the arguments against raw dairy products over the years. Lots of hysteria, but little hard evidence to back it up.

I know, the White House issued a list of several hundred terrorist incidents around the world. To me, it sounded a lot like the U.S. Centers for Disease Control issuing its list of illness outbreaks. For raw milk, it and the FDA have cited dozens of illnesses from around the country, and the CDC also likes to wheel out its study indicating there are 48 million annual illnesses from tainted food every year.

So I’m having a difficult time understanding why, on the one hand, there is such disbelief among food rights supporters when the government warns that they may die from living organisms in raw milk products, and, on the other hand, such immediate acceptance when the government warns they may die from living organisms who come as refugees to the U.S. The raw dairy consumers feel little fear about the unseen potentially dangerous organisms in raw milk, certain that the good organisms in their body will probably overwhelm the bad ones. Even if they don’t, the odds of illness are very low, they feel.

It seems as if a similar scenario plays out with refugees. The U.S. has for decades been a melting pot, a beacon to refugees from around the world. One of America’s great economic and cultural strengths is that people from all kinds of backgrounds and all kinds of foreign cultures, blend together. Go to many workplaces and schools, and you will find people with all kinds of last names, all different races, all manner of customs. The good and experienced organisms help the new and uncertain ones fit in.

Does that mean a refugee from the Middle East or Africa will never again be involved in a terrorist incident here, after the horror of 9-11? Of course not.  Steps have been taken to reduce the risk, but there is no way to eliminate that risk, just as there is no way to eliminate the risk that you’ll get very sick from listeria or E.coli O157H7. Yet there seems to be zero tolerance for the refugee organisms, and endless tolerance for the risk of the bacteria organisms.

I’ve had a hard time understanding the huge amount of hostility to refugees, from readers of this blog. We, more than anyone, know that trying to keep our food and immediate environment sterile is a recipe for health disaster, has spawned all kinds of chronic auto-immune disease. Trying to keep our country similarly sterile has the same kinds of negative impacts, by fostering suspicion and hostility.

But there is one piece of advice that rings true, from Cheesemaker: “At the end of the day, we’re all in this thing together whether you like it or not.” I agree. We have to find ways to continue welcoming people from all over the world into our communities, with vetting and other precautions, just as we continue welcoming unseen living organisms into our microbiome communities.


In a related human organism case, the government continues its assault on salve maker Sam Girod. Yesterday, in a five-minute hearing, a judge agreed to add a count to his list of accusations in connection with him not showing up for a hearing last summer. The new count could add another 10 years to the 58 the Kentucky Amish business owner faces, according to Sally O’Boyle, a food activist, who was at the hearing. More info here.

126 comments to Two Organisms, Same Govt Hysteria—Where Is the Consistency?

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad


    There is no hostility on my part towards refugee’s… apprehension perhaps, with respect to all the oppressive religious and cultural baggage they bring along with them, but no hostility. Germany, France and England etc. are experiencing some real difficulties as a result of refugees attempting to implement sharia law in their nations.

    I agree, “We have to find ways to continue welcoming people from all over the world into our communities, with vetting and other precautions…”

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Refugees have historically brought heavy-duty religious and cultural baggage. That’s why they tend to live in communities with other refugees when they first arrive. But most, especially those who come to the U.S., tend to be sufficiently motivated to fit in and succeed that they gradually dispense with the baggage, and become absorbed in the culture.

      This from today’s NYTimes: “Remember Steve Jobs? His biological father was Abdulfattah “John” Jandali. He came to America as a student in the 1950s and studied at the University of Wisconsin. He was from … Homs, Syria.”

      There are so many of those stories in the U.S., that have helped make the country an economic and education leader. Parents of Trump’s son in law were Jewish refugees from the Holocaust.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    Why the need for legislation such as M103 in Canada, singling out a specific religious orientation when the Canadian constitution already protects freedom of Religion and expression?

    “M-103 coming before Parliament on February 16 to urge special consideration regarding “Islamophobia” without defining the word… could lead to curtailments of freedom of speech deemed hateful towards Muslims, but also, critically, towards Islam itself. Blasphemy laws conceived according to Shariah law have been adopted in a number of western countries.” Barbara Kay National Post columnist

  • David, I like the parallels you draw between bacterial diversity and political exclusion of immigrants with out regard to the visa vetting process that has worked exceptionally well. It is a wonderful statement about human value and what makes America strong.

    Just today, Trumps statements made no sense when he claimed that huge numbers of bad people were taking advantage of entry into America during the lifting of his ban.

    This is crazy talk….no less. Only vetted visa holding people can cross into the USA through airports now or at anytime!!!??? It takes years to get a vetted visa!!!

    What is he thinking…? Clearly…his intellect is very low, he is a sociopathic liar, or he thinks that all Americans are as brain dead stupid as the minority that voted for him.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      What are you thinking Mark and where is your moral compass pointing when you refer to your fellow Americans who voted for Trump “brain dead stupid” ?

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Mark, I agree, it is crazy talk. But I fear it is crazy talk with a purpose. I’ve always had this sense that when public health people or their lawyers try to create hysteria over raw dairy, they put themselves into a position of wishing for their dire predictions to come true. Then, if there is an outbreak of illnesses, they can say, “See! See! We warned you.” Same thing with Trump. The more he comes down on the judges for holding up his order, and actually blames them in advance if there is some kind of terrorist incident, the more he is putting himself into a position of wishing for the worst.

      It’s gotten so bad with Trump that his Supreme Court nominee, Gorsuch, said he found the president’s hysteria about judges “disheartening.” And now I read that Trump is livid with rage at Gorsuch and wants to retract the nomination.

      I hate to keep bringing Hitler up, but it is relevant when you talk about self-fulfilling prophesies: He railed against “communists” the way Trump rails against “radical Islamic extremists”, trying to create hysteria. Shortly after assuming office, Hitler’s people set the parliament building on fire, and blamed it on the communists. They then used that incident, the Reichstag Fire, as an excuse for decrees prohibiting freedom of the press and freedom of assembly.

  • Cat

    Dear David,
    Good observation.
    The consistency is that fear, paranoia, hatred and biased opinion instead of good science and risk assessments lead to these ‘complete bans’.

    Regulators, politicians, leaders have in all times been using this kind of information to scare people, to bring out strong feelings, to direct decisions.

    Just the fact that USA have a current leader that feel that twitter is enough to spread his opinions, say a lot about how they lack a multi-dimensional view of the world.

    I fear that this complete ban from some certain parts of the world is a huge danger for USA. Hatred, fear, non-tolerance is the breeding ground for danger.

  • David, right from the start you again prove you are adept at sophistry.

    ‘The Homeland Securities secretary was making his warning despite the fact that no refugees or others from the seven countries targeted by the ban had been involved in an American terrorist incident…”

    That is true, but leaves out an important detail. While there have been no incidents, there HAVE been arrests and convictions of prople from those countries who were in various stages of planning one of those “incidents” that haven’t happened…yet.

    You also show that you are a good writer…you use words well…but an increasingly poor journalist:

    “Listening to the arguments in favor of the immigrant ban over the last week, I have felt a lot like I did listening to the arguments against raw dairy products over the years. Lots of hysteria, but little hard evidence to back it up.”

    First, if you were truthful you would not use the word “ban” because it is not a ban. It is a pause…either 4 or 6 months (I believe it was 6 months originally but has been shortened to 120 days) to give the United States time to put good, effective vetting procedures in place, something Homeland Security, the DIA, the FBI, and, I believe, the CIA have testified before Congress that does not currently exist.

    And there IS hard evidence of a problem…see the reference to arrests and convictions, above.

    Your comparison to raw dairy is sophistry as well. What the CDC, USDA, FDA, and Dep0artment of Agriculture have been doing is really a ban, not a pause. Two hugely different things, but that seems to escape you.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Bob, I had to look up the word “sophistry”. That wasn’t a course we had at Columbia Journalism School. (It is an argument that sounds logical, but is meant to deceive.) Deception wasn’t my intention, but coming from you, saying I did something well, I’ll take as a compliment.

      Not sure what you are referring to with raw dairy and CDC, USDA, FDA. The first two agencies have no regulatory power over raw dairy. FDA in 1987 instituted a prohibition on interstate shipments of raw milk. FDA reg on raw milk cheese allows it for retail sale, so long as it is aged at least 90 days. Raw milk safety and consumption is regulated by states, and each one has its own regs. A few allow even retail sale, while a few “ban” all sales. Most fall somewhere in between, allowing on-farm sales or herd shares, etc.

      I think these technicalities, like your reference to arrests, and ban, get off the track from the larger point, which is that the government has been whipping up lots of hysteria about both raw dairy and Muslim immigrants.

  • Joseph Heckman

    “Our Health and Human Services ministry launches predawn raids on peaceful family farms suspected of selling fresh milk that has not been cooked to specific federal guidelines.”

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad


    I think you will agree that Donald Trump is not a political correct kind of guy… right or wrong, he will tell you how he sees it in no uncertain terms. Indeed, for many who have ben victimized by, and view politicians, bureaucrats and those involved in the judicial system as insincere, deceitful master manipulators… Donald trump is a breath of fresh air. For those who view him with hate and contempt, he is the embodiment of evil and they, including establishment republicans and democrats, the media and the mob will do everything in their power to nurture division and attempt to destabilize the government he is trying to set up. This unfortunately demonstrates a gross disrespect for the electoral process in your country.

    • E.G.

      My question: Are the operators RAWMI-trained? And, do they have on-farm food safety (OFFS) plans such as a RAMP and SSOP? If neither of these, then there is room for improvement and potentially implementing prevention measures. I hope that they contact RAWMI for advice.

      To play devil’s advocate: If in Canada, every licensed commercial dairy farmer since 2013 must be CQM-trained and have on-farm food safety plans even though all the milk is going for pasteurization — why isn’t training and having OFFS plans mandatory elsewhere, and for raw milk? If we know that training and food safety planning can prevent outbreaks, why isn’t there a will to implement this?

    • Lynn_M Lynn_M

      Another misleading headline. Before anyone gets huffy about this being a classic example of the need for testing and preventive surveillance, they need to read Cindy’s comments to that story. It appears the Pride and Joy Dairy was railroaded by inspectors using poor sample control and blaming the dairy only because it was a common element in the two people who were ill. The two people had Salmonella Dublin, not E-Coli, and no Salmonella was found in the P&J milk samples.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      A typical knee jerk response by inspectors and the media based on so-called epidemiological evidence.

  • Mary,

    The Pride and Joy issues in the state of WA is a classic example of the need for more testing and preventative surveillance. When the state finds your problems first.( during one time per month testing ) ….your food safety testing program is not adequate. With the advent of AOAC FDA BAX PCR testing, results are available in 10 hours, accurate, and cheap.


    Trump is a Nazi….in his heart and soul. The arrest and deportation of an Arizona mother with two American born children as she was reporting to her once per year immigration meeting is the basis of my defining Trump as Nazi. She was first arrested years ago during an immigration raid when she was working!!!! Obama refused to have her deported during his presidency. Now Trump is breaking up a working mother from her American born kids. Trump is cold blooded and heartless on top of his list of other deranged inhuman fascist qualities. For those of you that think I have lost it….remember the advice and observations of psychiatrists: Projection of ones own issues onto another…..

    I have never been more clear in my thoughts or the foundation of the reason underlying my thoughts.

    Progress is being made on the education side of RAWMILK. I have been asked to present all about raw milk along side a USDA soil biologist during the upcoming National Farmers Union convention in San Diego next month. There is direct connection beteeen the health of soils and the health of our human gut. From Grass to Glass and Soil to Body, we will connect the dots between nutrition and food and prevention of disease. In the end it is the farmer that must become the farmacist if we intend to sustain farming and prevent disease. The current “processor first mentality” is killing both farmers and consumers.

    Yes….a USDA Phd and me on the same page. Good things happening inspite of a crazy sociopathic ass in the whitehouse.

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      Mark, even with RAWMI and extensive testing, you know first hand that E.coli outbreaks can still happen. It’s a hardy pathogen.

      • Emma G.

        But they likely happen less often, Mary. Just as with the introduction of HACCP programs in the meat processing industry in 1997 — over the next 7 years, E.coli outbreaks due to meats fell something like 42%.

        I’m not an expert, but when I hear of Salmonella in milk, my first question is about whether they are allowing poultry to be in-contact with cows. From their website: “Using chickens to clean your pasture of parasites and provide the healthiest eggs and meat.” – . Hmmm…

        As for E.coli, I’d like to find out more about their udder prep routine and equipment sanitation procedures.

        Lot of questions that could bear investigating. I hope they come and participate here, because I want to hear their side of it.

    • Lynn_M Lynn_M

      Mark, you neglect to say the Arizona mother in this country illegally and recently deported was found guilty of a felony for using a fake Social Security number. She was ordered deported in 2013. If it hadn’t been for the felony conviction, she wouldn’t have been deported. This was an enforcement of the rule of law. Do you think we should abandon the rule of law?

      • Cathy Raymond

        Lynn_M. thank you for telling the rest of the story that did not fit in with the Liberal slant.

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          One thing I’ve learned from the raw milk battles of the last decade is that they do wonders for opening your eyes to other political battles, to the hypocrisy of politicians and regulators picking on people who may be in the right morally, but are in a gray area of the law. So you, Cathy, and Lynn, among others, come here self-righteously proclaiming to use “the rule of law” for wanting to throw out existing immigrants, deny entry to Muslim and Mexican immigrants, and generally trash so-called “liberals” for seeming to coddle these foreigners.

          Now think back to the many raw dairy farmers we all so enthusiastically supported over the last decade. Richard Hebron of Michigan, Barb and Steve Smith of New York, Vernon Hershberger of Wisconsin, David Hochstetler of Indiana, Mark Nolt of Pennsylvania, and on and on the list goes. What did the regulators say about them? They may be nice people, but they are breaking the law. Federal law prohibits interstate milk shipments and sales, state laws in many of these places prohibit any sale of raw milk. Besides, the milk isn’t safe, and people will get sick and die from it. What happened to the rule of law, by golly?

          And what did we argue? What did FTCLDF argue? What did WAPF argue? These small farmers aren’t doing anything wrong. They are in a gray area. They have the inherent right to produce this healthy food, and we have the inherent right, above and beyond any specific regulations or laws, to acquire this milk. Who were the “liberals” in those arguments?

          I’m truly disappointed that the battles over raw milk, when we were the ones on the shaky side of the law, didn’t teach you more about questioning and challenging the arbitrary gray areas of law and regulation that the new powers that be want to stamp down on with an iron fist. Many immigrants are in a gray area of the law. They came to this country because we had jobs for them that Americans refused to take because they didn’t pay enough, and were too physically demanding. Or they came to this country to be with family members already here. Why wouldn’t you push instead for reforming our immigration laws so that the law-abiding among them (and most of them are) can somehow remain, just as you have pushed to reform our dairy laws to legalize the availability of raw milk, and the interstate sale of raw milk? I sense you despise these people in much the same way that many people have despised our raw dairy farmers.

          • Gordon S Watson

            as for “a grey area of the law” … what the Supreme Court of the United States had to say in the case of : Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457 (1892),[1] is directly on-point. Among other things, it’s the precedent for how the judiciary was to go about interpreting statutes. Most of all, it articulated that America is a Christian country.

            sure = you can gainsay all you want, about how the outward trappings change over time. But the pronouncement by the princes of the Judiciary, cinches my themes on this forum, a nation is comprised of people who are related by blood. Regardless of the Babylonian rabble invading our territory, the Law of our God is written on our hearts and minds … “us” being white people. The name of that God being “Jesus Christ”. Amer Reich is the land of milk and honey, promised to our ancestors. Whole fresh raw milk from healthy kine, is a heritage food = part of our birthright

          • David Gumpert David Gumpert

            The case you reference does contain much flowery language about the beauty of Christianity, by judges who apparently each want to portray themselves as religiously devoted, but the case itself was a very narrow one that had very little applicability to real life. The reality is that since that case, in the late 1890s, the U.S. Supreme Court has consistently upheld the idea of the U.S. as a secular state, with church and state strictly separated. It banned prayer in public schools, even made illegal forced recitations of the pledge of allegiance because it includes the phrase “one nation, under God, indivisible…” (I said it every day going through school, as did everyone in public school, and never thought much about that phrase, but respect the court’s inclination to be sensitive to the slippery slope of mixing religion and government.) For a list of key cases reinforcing the separation, take a look here.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    African American, South Carolina Republican Senator Tim Scott read the hate mail he has received for supporting President Trump’s attorney general nominee Jeff Sessions on the Senate floor Wednesday evening.

    “If you sign up to be a black conservative, the chances are very high you will be attacked,” the South Carolina Republican stated. “It comes with the territory, and I’ve had it for 20 years, two decades, but my friends and my staff, they’re not used to the level of animus that comes in from the liberal left that suggests that I somehow are not helpful to the cause of liberal America and therefore I am not helpful to black America.”

  • brad

    i like the article, thanks. For anyone who has ANY interest in the issues i suggest they look at these two links by NumbersUSA – the first is a simple, graphic, (colorful, lol) video about gumballs.

    This second one shows the effect of immigration. Most people don’t realize we are NOT continuing a formerly successful immigration policy. Congress has vastly, and without request by we the people – MASSIVELY increased immigration to the point that it is damaging. By the numbers, Gumballs part II.

    We used to have different cultures come in – Chinatown, Japantown, Little Mexico, etc – but you could basically walk down them. You can’t do that in Dearborn if you aren’t muslim. This is not assimilation and is the furthest thing from strengthening the nation with diversity – which WOULD be okay…

    None of this even touches on the illegals – Since 2010 in Texas alone – about 10 less than 3,000 murders, 600,000 plus crimes, including the murders, rapes, child sex trafficking, slavery, and more…

    We have problems. Immigration solves NONE of those problems.

  • windy

    It ain’t Swedish choirboys building bombs and running trucks into crowds.

    You have to start somewhere weeding out the bad guys – don’t see any of the “good” muslims turning in their bad brothers.

    Cut Trump some slack – at least he buys raw milk and questions vaccine policy.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      I know he questions vaccine policy, but I have yet to see any evidence he buys or consumes raw milk. To the contrary, he has bragged about his love of fast food.

  • eram

    I’m sure many would say the difference is terrorists have stated they intend to enter the USA by posing as refugees. There is a smuggling network operating along our border with Mexico, and I suspect the smugglers aren’t doing background checks to weed out terrorists. I have no problem with enhanced border security and temporary restricted immigration. So, to answer your question, IMO the difference is terrorists have expressed INTENT to come to the USA and harm people, by posing as refugees or illegally crossing our southern border. Regarding pathogens, food producers are not intending to harm anyone–quite the contrary.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Interesting point about intent. You suggest by your comment that there isn’t much anti-terrorism work going on behind the scenes by our enforcement, military, and intelligence agencies. We’ve heard about American drone attacks in troubled countries, and I think it’s safe to assume there is a lot of effort going on that we don’t hear about.

    • eram

      No, I believe we’ve had significant anti-terrorism work going on here & abroad. However, ICE took a political risk by endorsing Trump which sends the message that they believe more needs to be done to secure our borders and “keep the bad guys out.” I agree with that, especially after reading about attack after attack across Europe last year–recall the priest whose throat was slit during mass??? The travel ban is temporary, and the hysteria is unwarranted. Personally, I’m anti-interventionist. Even mainstream press acknowledged Clinton was more hawkish than Trump–I believe she would’ve escalated Obama’s interventionism around the world (Obama dropped 26K+ bombs on troubled countries in 2016). Our past approach to combating terrorism with regime change and drone attacks will only further promote terrorism (this is evidenced by recent history–Iraq, Syria, Libya). I knew a Pres H. Clinton would escalate that failed approach, and my hope was that Trump would take a different approach. (and I’m simply baffled by progressives lining up behind neocon war mongers McCain and Graham) Trump is far from perfect and has made mistakes, but this constant outrage from the left is going to backfire as Independents like me witness the hypocrisy and are drawn more toward the right. (I voted for every Democratic presidential nominee since 1992–until last year. I may never vote for another Democrat again).

  • I am so very happy….the judicial is kicking butt on the executive!!!!! We will be saved by the constitution and the cross check of power on branches of governemnt. Trump even alienated and upset his own nominee for Supreme Court. Can’t make this stuff up!! Jumping for joy. Inside of congress there is a movement already to move for removal from office.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad


      Don’t count your chickens before their eggs have hatched…

      And as stated earlier with respect to your previous comment… What are you thinking and where is your moral compass pointing when you refer to your fellow Americans who voted for Trump as “brain dead stupid”?

      • Cathy Raymond

        Wise counsel Ken. Mark’s comments feel a bit rabid on this topic and a good dose of Fox News might balance his perspective. I listen to NPR, read NYT and watch Fox to make sure I’m getting many sides of the story, so I can make up my own mind. What Mark is spouting is pure liberal bias. One-sided and mostly dark.

        Do you think it was surprising to ANYONE that a liberal majority court (with over 86% failure – overturned decisions by the Supreme Court), didn’t support the EO?

        Remember Mr. Trump’s sister was a well respected Federal judge, who became inactive on Feb 2017.

        Do you think he’s getting bad advice from his sister? It’s very likely that the EO was a bait for impotent liberals to rush to use the liberally sprinkled court system (their only “nuclear” option), so that the weaknesses – the personal bias, inattention to the constitution – could be broadcast for the nation to see. I haven’t heard anyone praise their decision except you and them. Actually, their decision is more than a bit scary.

        Imagine if someone told you could not test for pathogens in your milk. I doubt if you’d do a happy dance. I know your customers appreciate the care it takes.

        The Supreme Court will dismiss the case because the states have no standing. And, likely there will be some admonition about these frivolous lawsuits and lawsuit abuse.

        Trump is a masterful leader. You, David and the rest of us could be taking notes. The direction you would be “leading” us on this thread is falsely based, primarily on personal fears, without fact.

        Trump Hitler? I think not. You missed the MARK. Trump Racist? You can do better than that.
        Trump’s EO was a mess? Perhaps, but it was his first week in office. I’ll cut him some slack.
        Trump Hair Challenged – well, I’ll agree with you there, but hey at least he has hair Mark.

        He’s a reMARKable human being. I pray for his safety every day.

  • Mary,

    As you know food safety is about risk reduction.
    Lets be fair….12 deaths from pasteurized dairy products since 2007.

    I have them memorized: Cravens cheese, Roos brothers cheese, Whittier Farms, Blue Bell Icecream. All FDA ultra safe, guaranteed safe!!!! Not quite.

    Raw milk risk is not even on the top ten list of risky foods. Two pasteurized dairy products are on the top ten most risky foods list: Ice Cream and Cheese.

    The fda even classifies pasteurization as a risk reduction of 5 logs. If you know math, that means that risk is reduced by 5 logs….not to zero.

    Hey….I got a call from Lucy in New York, she is the one doing the TV special for Netflicks on raw milk as an emerging market. She said she had spoken with you. She interviewed me for an hour. She was amazed that you and I actually have a reasonable relationship. I shared with her that I gave you much credit for the initiative that inspired our first food safety program at OPDC. Thank you for the positive vibes.

  • Mcafee, of course you like the 9th’s decision. You like anything that is liberal/progressive/communist, especially the last. Its in your DNA.

  • John Dutcher

    I generally agree with most of your statements, but this one liberal/progressive/communist is not true at all. A liberal/progressive a communist does not make. That is the problem with most people today, very few know the difference between,socialism,communism,socialist domcracy, or even fascism( better known as corporatism)You cannot make general categorizations of people like that. There are so many people that fit both liberal and conservative, like me, I am gun owning liberal :>)

  • Cathy Raymond

    David, do you think that Iran poses no threat to Israel? That thought has been puzzling me for a long while.

    From Wiki – Iran’s immigration policy:

    Admission is refused to women not wearing Islamic head cover, scarf, long sleeves or stockings.[1] Citizens of Israel are totally banned from entry to Iran.[2][3]

    Why not run them up about irrational fears and such?

    Most of the problem is vetting Iranian immigrants, since, for some reason, we don’t have an American Embassy there. Wonder why?

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Cathy, I know you had a troubling relationship with Iranians that colors your view. I also know you are aware of the complex history of Iran, and especially American-Iranian relations. America has had crazy relationships with any number of countries. You may not be old enough to remember back to the 1960s, when China was as foreign to Americans as North Korea is today. The only Americans in China were U.S. Air Force pilots shot down while flying spy planes. Until just a few months ago, we had no relations with Cuba, just 90 miles from our shore, for over 50 years. Cuba, like Iran, had had a revolution, and thrown out a government that collaborated with the U.S. to support a brutal dictator.

      I haven’t cared for Iran’s virulent anti-Israel threats, though I know they grow in large measure from Israel’s close relationship with the U.S. I also sense that many of the threats are bluster, meant for public consumption. I thought the nuclear treaty Obama negotiated with Iran was positive, since it removed their nuclear development as a threat for at least a decade. What’s wrong with trying to improve relations with an enemy? (Isn’t that what many say about Trump cozying up to Putin?)

      One suggestion I would offer to you, and others interested in learning more about Iran, is to watch some of the independent films that have been made in recent years by Iranian producers. Two that I’ve seen, and highly recommend, are “About Elly” and “Leila”. One thing you learn from such movies is that the reality of Iranian society is much more diverse than suggested by American propaganda, which paints it is an obsessive Muslim fundamentalist society. In fact, there is a significant secular component, especially in the big cities like Tehran, and the young people have goals not that much different from westernized people like us.

      • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad


        I am certainly not an expert on these complex historical religious matters. However, it would appear that the rift between Judaism and Islam started long before there ever was a United States of America.

        Did it not begin back when the Jews first rejected Muhammad’s claim as a prophet and disputed a number of passages in the Qu’ran, which they believed contradicted the Torah? It would seem that it went more or less downhill from then on? If there was an event that truly cemented that rift, it was the invasion of the west by the Turks which was countered by Christan forces a.k.a. the crusades 1095-1291. Initially, the primary objective for the crusades was to halt the westward advance of Muslim Turks into Europe, and to liberate Palestine from their control; an advance that began back in 622 AD. Ever since then and to this day the situation in the Middle East has been an ongoing series of wars, territorial changes and shaky peace treaties involving Britain and the United Nations.

        This respected muslim scholar Tarek Fatah warns the Canadian Senate Committee about the truth of Islam.
        Indeed, Islam’s fiercest critics are apostate and activist Muslims.

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          Ken, I think you are more of an expert on this ancient history than I am. My understanding is that Arabs and Jews lived side by side in the areas that are now Israel and the West Bank for hundreds of years. The United Nations in 1947 proposed partitioning Palestine into a Jewish segment and an Palestinian segment. The Jews accepted, and the Palestinians rejected, egged on by the surrounding Arab nations. Israel then fought, and won, its war of independence, and the Palestinians began a long descent. As Abba Eban, one of Israel’s founders and long-time diplomat, put it: “The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” I’m not sure how much of the Palestinians’ bad decisions are a result of their interpretation of Islam, or simply poor judgment or lack of political unity.

      • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

        Here is the link to Tarek Fatah’s address to the Canadian Senate Committee…

  • Jan

    We have been living in Mexico since August of 2015, my husband and I. You would not believe the documentation and hoops you have to jump through to LEGALLY get a work permit
    in Mexico. Here is a list just on the our side. The employer’s side is also daunting.

    Employee: A foreign national in violation of the terms of his authorized stay will be expelled from the country.

    Basic Requirements to Qualify

    The employee must possess relevant professional experience, along with a university-level degree. In lieu of a university degree, the assignee must possess considerable professional experience.

    We had to go to the Mexican embassy in the US for a pre visa type of documentation. Then we had to get the following documents , many with Apostiles!!!!

    Employee and Family Documents
    a. An original university diploma or transcript, or notarized photocopy of the employee’s university degree/transcripts, with an Apostille affixed.
    b. Copy of the employee’s and each family members full passports (all pages, including blank pages).
    c. Current resume.
    d. Confirmation of job title, job descriptions and salary details in Mexico.
    e. Birth certificates with Apostilles for the foreigner and his family.
    f. Marriage certificate with Apostille.

    Documents Required to Apply for a Work Visa
    Once the INM issues the approval notice, the employee and each accompanying family member generally must submit the following documents to the Mexican Consulate when applying for the visa:
    1. Original passport valid for a minimum of 6 months.
    2. Four (4) passport style photographs.
    3. Application form.
    4. Approval notice from the INM
    5. Consular fee.

    Validity of the Work Visa
    The FM-3 work visa is generally valid for an initial period of one year, with yearly one-year extensions possible. The FM-3 can be renewed for a total validity of five years.


    Employee: A foreign national in violation of the terms of his authorized stay will be expelled from the country.

    There are around 1,000,000 Americans living legally in Mexico and about 500,000 Canadians (some part-time).

    Here in Mexico City, restaurants are advertising all the time for waiters, dishwashers, valets.

    Additionally, if you don’t qualify for the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion from the US , you get double taxation with Mexican Taxes and US taxes. Compare this to many illegal Mexicans in the US sending untaxed remittances back to Mexico.

    The Mexican immigration problem is out of control. This is not Ellis Island in the 1890’s. This is Mexican women waiting on the Mexican side of the river until they have labor pains, swimming over the river to have their baby in a US hospital for free, having the baby while they are still wet from swimming.

    It is out of control and Trump is exactly right in addressing this issue. I ran across a Honduran immigrant on the street a few days ago. He asked me for a gift of a taco or money. I went home and made him sandwich and took it back to him with a drink. But I warned him against going to the US. The entire world is on the move with the intention of coming to the US. The United States cannot take in the entire world. Then there will be no where to go except to another planet.

    The history of mankind is to destroy where they are living and then to move on. The solution is not to enable mankind. We have to change where we live. There are no new frontiers anymore on this planet.

  • blesse'd are the cheese makers

    As Ronald Reagan once said to Jimmy Carter during one of their debates, “There you go again . . . ”

    David’s conclusion: “We have to find ways to continue welcoming people from all over the world into our communities, WITH VETTING AND OTHER PRECAUTIONS, just as we continue welcoming unseen living organisms into the microbiome (sic) communities.” (emphasis added by me).

    For the most part, I tend to agree with this part of Mr. Gumpert’s post. I agree that we should “vet” all non-citizens who attempt to gain entry into the US and we should especially take all “precautions” regarding non-citizens who attempt to come here from strife-torn nations — including the seven nations that are named in the now shelved EO. But this conclusion is snuck into his argument after he skillfully plays a shell game with words prior to reaching this conclusion.

    Now, in a recent follow up tonight, now Mexicans are part of his hyperbole. Where did that come from?

    Mr. Gumpert, your argument analogizing good bacteria in pasteurized milk with immigrants (legal and illegal) introduced into the community is a clever sleight of hand argument that uses diversion tactics to misdirect while the magician performs his trick.

    Let’s take a look at some of the terms used. When describing these non-citizens, you use such sympathetic terms as “refugee” and “immigrant” and then you characterize Trump’s executive order as total “ban” and as a blanket call to “throw out” every non-citizen.

    As Mr. Hayles points out, the purpose of the executive order was to call a “time out” in allowing unvetted non-citizens into the country from seven (7) specific countries that have a known reputation for terrorism and anti-American sentiments. On top of that, the FBI director himself stated that there is no way the authorities could “vet” many of these people because they have absolutely no documentation whatsoever — NONE. And the ones who do have documentation have documentation that cannot be verified. In this regard, I tend to favor using terms like “illegal immigrant” and “invaders” for these people — but that’s just me.

    So, although this is a moot point since the activist left coast judiciary has openly and illegally gone against Mr. Trump’s EO, after we cut through Mr. Gumpert’s grandstanding, it appears we still can agree that these folks need to be vetted and that we need to take precautions with them accordingly — all of which the 9th circuit threw out the window with the baby’s bath water.

    By the way, analogizing raw milk bacteria with illegal immigrants is a bit of a stretch, don’t ya think . . . sounds racist as hell to me. But what do I know.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Cheese maker, If you are really a cheese maker, maybe it’s easier to explain myself, and easier for you to comprehend, using cheese making analogy. Right now, the U.S. FDA requires all raw milk cheese to be aged at least 90 days before it can be sold at retail. Has been this way since late 1940s. However, for the last 12 years or so, the FDA has been investigating whether the 90-day aging requirement should be lengthened (i.e. more vetting). It has conducted studies, assessments to make the case that raw milk cheese poses a serious enough health risk that additional vetting is essential.

      Cheese makers around the country have fought against any such additional vetting, via the American Cheese Society and via FDA hearings. U.S. Senators and Representatives have become involved in the struggle, siding with the cheese makers. Their argument is that there isn’t enough evidence that raw milk cheese is such a health hazard that additional vetting is required.

      Where have you been in this debate? For the raw milk cheese makers? Assuming you have, how do you reconcile your refusal to accept government warnings about vetting of cheese, and your eagerness to accept government warnings about additional vetting (over the considerable vetting that already takes place)?

      P.S. My reference to Mexicans came from the mention by other bloggers here. Difficult to keep track of all the scapegoats you and others bandy about–Muslims, Mexicans, liberals, Iranians, blacks, Jews….and I’m probably missing a few.

  • John Dutcher,

    I am also a gun shooting liberal of sorts. Liberal does not give me credit for being a humanitarian or pilot for a medical mission non profit that serves deep Mexico with free medical care several times per year. Communist…thats a real stretch. Never been one and don’t intend on being one. The free market system is good… just requires a safety net and part if that net is medical care as a human right. Free market promotes individual efforts….

    Interestingly, Trump supporters love Putin. Isn’t he the dictator in chief. Trump supporters are also the ones that refuse to change and want to bring back Coal Digging jobs. Trump himself said that he had the uneducated vote….I agree with him on that point.

    I believe in climate change and solid science. If that makes me a liberal sign me up.

    So much for labels and name calling.

    I love the point David makes about how FTCLDF and WAP both rebel in defiance and in violation of interstate commerce of raw milk which is very much against the law….but paying taxes under a relatives SS# and working minimum wage on the hardest of jobs is not ok. Deporting a Dreamer and breaking up families is bad karma and hatred in carnate. There is a special place in hell for those that promote this policy. Kathy…. Come to the light.

    The right wing nut cases here…stimulate my inner rebel. Just keep on stirring it up.. The more you stir….the deeper you get. America does not really have a place for haters. This country has outgrown you and you are pissed that your narrow minded racist nationalist policies are not wanted. The idea that Making America Go Back in Time to Be Great Again is an oxymoron. If we go back…we give up good progress. We must go forward to make America greater. Going back is a retreat to racism, and reactionary McCarthyism and grief. Do you really want to go back to Jim Crow and women not voting? That’s Trump…..and you think he is a brilliant leader. He is an idiot….certified. A narcissist and a sociopathic idiot.

    My wife attended a CCOF ( organic meeting ) today. Gary Hirshberg spoke about how Trumps policies will kill organics and all the progress made to assure organic food for consumers. Trump ran on being the people’s answer to Wall Street. People….he is Wall Street!!! He is the shyster billionaire that has played you for a fool.

    Brace for impact….he loves Big Ag…..he loves Russia and Putin….he loves money and that means the use of his office to make money. His staff is being indicted for breach of The Logan Act.

    He is going down because of his arrogance and blatant narcissism. Bernie Sanders said it all…..” The man is a pathological liar”

  • Jan

    Liberals were not protesting when Obama was deporting immigrants. That was OK. I call that hypocritical.

    Obama has deported more immigrants than any other president. Now he’s running up the score. Article January 1 2016.

    When it comes to getting tough on immigration, Republican candidates talk the talk, but Obama walks the walk. President Obama has deported more people than any U.S. president before him, and almost more than every other president combined from the 20th century.

    Immigration-flow numbers are staggering in both directions. In 2014, it’s estimated that more than 200,000 Central Americans tried to emigrate to the United States without documentation. But the Obama government has been deporting them as fast as it can.

    Since coming to office in 2009, Obama’s government has deported more than 2.5 million people—up 23% from the George W. Bush years. More shockingly, Obama is now on pace to deport more people than the sum of all 19 presidents who governed the United States from 1892-2000, according to government data.

    And he’s not done yet. With the clock ticking down his final months in office, Obama appears to be running up the score in an effort to protect his title as deporter-in-chief from future presidents. To pad the numbers, Homeland Security is now going after the lowest-hanging fruit: women and children who are seeking asylum from violence in Central America.

  • Everyone is invited to visit OPDC and see our new Milk Barn. April 20th at noon. Took us years to get the permits and now we are three weeks away from start of milking. This purpose built raw milk Grade A barn is very special with all sorts of tests & hold elements and even a pre inspection parlor area to allow for additional inspection and cleaning if needed prior to milking.

    By the way….my padded happy valley asylum cell is really green and the cows are super happy after all the rains. The pastures have never been greener or more lush Everyone is invited.

  • Blessed Cheese maker ?

    Are you a cheese maker ? What kind of cheese to you make? Which state do you live in ?

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad


    Many Muslims and Jews likely did get along quite well throughout the centuries as many do today. It’s the religious leaders and politicians that usually get their nickers in a knot and then stir up dissent and as such persuade/compel many among the masses too follow suit. Indeed, this can be said of many peoples, tribes and nations throughout the course of history. And, as is more often then not the case, historians and storytellers, including todays media tend to focus on controversial and violent events and times. As the saying goes, “The squeaky wheel gets the grease” or as is the case with history and current events… “The coverage”.

    If I dare provide my biased Christian perspective, and I say this with all due respect… The problem with the Islamic, Judaic religions and cultures is their adherence to the old covenant of works and this “an eye for an eye” ideology. Indeed this strict adherence to the Mosaic Law is equally problematic in many Christian churches and the cause of much division.

    With respect to the ongoing discussion weve been having here about politics, I would like to say that I respect, value and take seriously your point of view. I believe that we would be much further ahead as human beings if we placed as much effort into understanding each other as we do with respect to being understood.

    The following statement by Ayaan Hirsi Ali a former MP from 2003 and 2006 for the Dutch People’s Party for Democracy and who currently works for a conservative think tank, the American Enterprise Institute, is truly relevant to the current immigration dilemma, “There is a huge difference between being tolerant and tolerating intolerance”. Indeed, and if I may add… it is imperative that we be vigilant, not vengeful.

    The article below entitled, “Why Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Criticism of Islam Angers Western Liberals” is invaluable to the current immigration debate.

    Admittedly, I am not a big fan of Bill Maher. However his interview, included in the above article of Ayaan Hirsi Ali is worth listening to.

  • Isreal has a real problem. It always has had a real problem….they leave Palestine 2000 years ago, and then want it back after it is resettled by others. Then they take more than what they were provided by UN Vote. Settlements and shooting of protesters with Anerican M-16s is really horrible and it begs more unrest. The last isreali attack on the Palestinians was nothing less than a war crime. When the news reported that a Arab family had contacted the IDF to let them know where they live to make sure that they were not hit by bombs….then in less than an hour a tank round specifically hit their home killing half of their children…..that is a war crime!!!!!!!!

    Nothing less…sickness and base murder.

    If Isreal wants to be treated nicely by its neighbors it needs to stop thinking of Jews or its citizens as anything more special than simple human beings. Humans just like the rest of humanity….nothing more and nothing less. When one group of people claim they are the chosen, that is an automatic invite for being targeted by others that are somehow rated as less. I lived in Isreal as a child and know exactly what I speak of.

    Palestinians have no right to target Israelis….and the Israelis have no right to target Pslrstinians. Simple as that. I will never forget me riding in a taxi with my dad in the late 1960s and being stopped by Israeli soldiers. Why??? Because they were going house to house and dragging young men out and shooting them….because of an earlier attack that had killed two soldiers. They had a policy of ten to one death for any dead Isreali soldiers. Innocent young men being executed. That’s Israel. They needed 20 dead Arabs and they were in the process of finding and killing them all from inside of their homes….then the homes were being bulldozed with screaming families left on the street with a pile of dead young men.

    True hate and sickness….much like what Hitler did to them. Then the Isrealis expect to have peace!!! This is how you make a terrorist ??

    My gut turns when I see the news or American politicians blindly standing up for Isreal, sending $ 38 Billion of my money per year with no accountability. Blind support for Isreal is wrong on all levels. Where is our equal support for Palestine. If we want peace….we will hold Isreal accountable for making true friends with its neighbors. They should be safe….just as every other Palestinian deserves to be safe.

    Religious bullshit is religious bullshit. Do not start with religious bullshit. A true faith and a Good religion is grounded in humanity for all of gods children….not just a select or chosen few.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Mark, you and I could spend the rest of our lives trying to read all the books that have been written justifying both the Israeli and Arab viewpoints about who has rights to the land there, and we probably wouldn’t make a serious dent in the literature. It is overwhelming. I’ve read some of it, and have concluded, as have many Israelis and Palestinians in the intervening years, that it’s nearly impossible to say one side is right and the other wrong. And there has been more than enough savagery committed by both sides that it is safe to say no one is blameless, despite what you may have seen in the 1960s. The Oslo Accords of 1993 between the Israelis and Palestinians, that envisioned a path to peace, were kind of an admission of such, and tried to look forward and come up with a reasonable solution.

      The two sides actually went quite a long ways toward resolving the conflict in 2000, with Pres Clinton acting as intermediary. The Israelis pretty much gave the Palestinians most of what they were seeking, but Arafat couldn’t pull the trigger and do the deal, apparently out of fear that extremists in his camp would kill him (much as Jewish extremists had assassinated the Israeli prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, in 1995, when he was moving very close to negotiating a settlement). In the end, it’s safe to say that extremists from one side or the other have sabotaged any possibility of real peace and a long-term agreement that would give the Palestinians a state. I would tend to agree with you that over the last few years in Israel, the extremists have taken control, and made the prospects for peace even worse. It is interesting, though, that Israel has gradually made peace with other states in the region–it has peace agreements that have held with Egypt and Jordan. And decent relations with Saudi Arabia, and on-again-off-again with Turkey, among others. The sad part of that is that as time goes on, the Palestinians lose more land and opportunity.

      One lesson to me is that religious fundamentalism, whether Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, or anything else, is toxic, because it deals in absolutes, with no room for compromise or tolerance.

  • charles

    Thumbs up to you Mark !!

  • blesse'd are the cheese makers

    So, do you want to have a shouting match or a lively debate/discussion?

    First, it would be helpful if you would refrain from departing from a discussion on a specific issue (i.e., a discussion about vetting non-citizens from seven (7) named strife-torn countries) and turning it into a general all-encompassing concept where I hate everybody who is not white. By the way, How do you know I am white?

    Please allow me to elaborate. If I go get in my car and drive from Point A to Point B, I have to have a driver’s license (photo ID) because if I get stopped by the police, I have to produce my license or suffer the consequences. If I go to the bank to cash a check, I have to show an ID. If I go to a store and try to pay with a credit card, I have to show and ID. If I am on the road and have to stop at a hotel for the night, I have to produce an ID. However, for some strange twisted idiotic break in the chain of logic, if I voice concerns about someone who wants to vote that they should have a valid picture ID, I get shouted down as a “racist” by the Left Wing Democrats and MSM.

    If I travel to another country, I have to show a passport and, in many cases, produce a visa, showing that I am who I am and I come from where I come from. If, however, I voice concerns about certain non-citizen folks coming to the US from a specific strife-torn area where known reported terroristic activity is in place and who cannot produce verifiable documentation, I am suddenly a racist and I hate Mexicans, Jews, Liberals, Blacks, Latinos, etc., etc.

    I have commented on here before that people from Islamic countries who are staunch followers of the Quran and of Sharia law are under a legal system that does not comport with a Constitutional Republic. Sharia law is dictated by the Quran and the religious ideology it espouses. This form of government is known as a theocracy which dictates that all rights, yes, all rights, come from Allah down through the government via its selected religious “leaders” and then down to the people. On the other hand, our Constitutional Republic, what’s left of it, is the exact opposite of a theocracy. [On a side note here, it is interesting to me that the liberal left, who is so quick to shout out about “separation of church and state” and “religious freedom” and “freedom FROM religion”, etc., are so ready to embrace an ideology that does not allow religious freedom and is the ultimate melding of “church” with state — oh, the irony].

    Now — you might disagree with my assertions, but there are ample and numerous writings and treatises out there that support my position. In this regard, does that make me a “racist”? Apparently so. And what I have found as the typical come-back from the left is that if we on the right disagree with anything you believe, then we are racist, homophobe, xenophobe, Islamophobe, raw-milk-ophobe, climate change deniers, blah, blah, blah.

    I am sick and tired of having these baseless arguments hurled at me on some of these issues, all devoid of factual and legal bases. Especially when I know that 1) you are projecting your hate and intolerance onto me, and 2) you are wrong.

    On another note, there is no 90 day rule on the aging requirement for raw milk cheese. The aging requirement on raw milk cheese is currently 60 days or more at 35 degrees or more and has been that way since 1949. The FDA, in the past, has looked into the possibility of extending the aging requirement to 90 days. However, based on their recent three-year boondoggle of collecting raw milk cheese samples and testing them, both from both domestic and foreign sources, much to their chagrin, they were unable to find a problem with raw milk cheese. They concluded in a July 2016 report, after spending who knows how much tax payer money, that “it (FDA) could not reliably make inferences with respect to possible common factors” in regard to any potential food borne threat.

    On the other hand, using your own argument, yesterday in the “Washington Examiner,” a story broke asserting that there have been 72 convicted terrorists here in the USA from the seven (7) countries at issue. Using your argument, if you had 72 samples of your milk tested positive for E-coli, the feds would shut you down. Right, Mark?

    By the way, with all due respect, your raw milk and raw milk cheese argument is a non sequitur that has absolutely nothing to do with screening non-citizens who attempt to come into our country. Your analogy is based on a false premise and/or invalid inference. This is more commonly known in the world of debate as “derailment.” But, hey, I give you an “E” for effort on your argument. Maybe somebody bought into it.

    To conclude, I do not care if they are black, yellow, green, white or polka dot, I would like to know that our government is properly screening and vetting any and all non-citizens who attempt to gain entry into our country. And you know something, interestingly enough, vetting non-citizens who attempt to enter our country is actually one of the few enumerated limited duties that our federal government has under Article 1, Section VIII of the US Constitution. Go figure. On the other hand, the FDA and its band of lawless bureaucrats are an unconstitutional part of the “fourth” branch of government commandeered by unelected bureaucrats.

    Whatever the case, if the foregoing viewpoint makes me a “racist” in your mind, so be it. But . . . before you start hurling all these epithets at us out here on the “right” (whatever that is), I suggest you take a good long look in the mirror.

    • D. Smith D. Smith

      High five, blesse’d are the cheese makers. You made so many good points.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      CheeseMaker, my main point was questioning you as to why you are so quick to believe government and media reports about the dangers of immigrants, and yet you refuse to believe warnings from the same government (FDA) about the dangers of raw milk cheese. The FDA at least provided a lengthy “risk assessment” back in 2013 to back up its claim that soft raw milk cheeses are up to 160 times more dangerous than pasteurized cheeses.

      The U.S. Justice Department and Homeland Security? They were unable to provide any documentation about the danger of immigrants from the seven countries named, when questioned by U.S. Senators and by federal judges. Call it a non-sequitur or rantings of a liberal or whatever you want, but bottom line, you fail to explain a basic inconsistency–why you refuse to believe your government when it warns repeatedly about one type of danger, and yet embrace immediately its warnings about another type of danger, when both dangers have the potential to injure or kill many people. I’ll offer one possible reason–the warnings you reject come about a subject you know a lot about, while the warnings you embrace come about a subject you know very little about (as do I and most of the people here). You’ll have to explain why you are so eager to embrace the warnings you have so little background on. (And BTW, thanks for correcting me on the aging requirement for raw milk cheese–60 days, not 90 days.)

      • Gayle Loiselle

        Really David?!? If we believe one government report we should believe them all? Your loosing me on this one…how can you seriously equate the risks of raw milk to the risks of radical Islamic ideology. Raw milk or cheese can become contaminated, yes, but they lack a brain, and therefore don’t possess the mission of spreading throughout the world. Unless of course your comparing the people behind raw milk to terrorists.

    • Gayle Loiselle

      * Well said, cheesemaker

  • Cheese maker…..perhaps there is a communication error. I have no idea if you are white, pink, red, black or blue. I just wanted to know if you are an actual cheese maker? Do you make cheese? Seriously. Cheese making is an art and dark hard work.

  • charles

    Religion is an invention of man.The gods that be came from the heavens as early humans used to say. Today we say outer space.God is one of various beings,conceived of in polytheistic relgions or mythologies as having supernatural aspects or powers.Their technology, made early man think these beings were gods.Imagine no religion above only sky,John Lennon’s lyrics.Take away religion and you would have much less wars.You may say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    The Americans need to stop meddling in the political affairs of other countries around the world. Indeed, The hypocrisy of the powers that be in the United States is blinding…

  • Gayle Loiselle Gayle Loiselle

    David, I get your analogy with bacteria, and agree immigration promotes vitality, though it didn’t work out so well for indigenous American’s did it. Raw milk farmers know the diversity of bacteria in their cow’s milk builds vitality in the human gut. Yet they work diligently to ensure E.coli and listeria stay off their farms and out of their milk, because those particular bacteria are deadly. To use your analogy – immigrants and asylum seekers are beneficial bacteria, and radical Islamic ideology is E.coli. I think we’d agree most farmers are constantly responding to changes in the environment to keep E.coli at bay. Female genital mutilation in Somalia, 9 year old brides in Yemen, these are cultural norms in their countries. Very disturbing but a reality none the less. Hundreds of thousands chanted “Death to America” in the streets of Iran last week. Syria is over run with radicalized militants. Radical Islamic ideology is a cancer, its life blood is to violently terrorize as it spreads throughout the world, and the US is in it’s sights. To not see that as a threat to the American people is incredibly…naive, or serious denial. In 2011, President Obama put a 6 mo ban on Iraqi refugees, a majority Muslim nation. No liberals found that discriminatory, partly because of the liberal the love affair with all things liberal, but mainly because Obama was’t targeting Muslims. Even though trump is offensive, just maybe, like Obama, he is targeting E.coli and not Muslims. Immigration caps and temporary travel bans imposed actions taken by several presidents while looking after the safety and well being of US citizens.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Gayle, you are gulping down that government kool aid faster than they can serve it up. I’m not saying that radical Islamic ideology isn’t a problem around the world. I am questioning the government’s rationale and evidence for the imposition of immigration bans on seven primarily Muslim countries. I haven’t seen any data or study to justify it, because the government hasn’t provided any. I’m surprised you would simply accept the assertions of government officials that they are doing it because it’s a dangerous world. I used the raw milk analogy because I know most people here laugh when the government says raw milk is “inherently dangerous” and “like playing Russian roulette with your health.” Going beyond raw milk, do you, or others here, accept at face value the CDC claim that food pathogens make 48 million people sick, hospitalize 128,000, and kill 3,000 each year? That’s way more injuries and deaths than all the terrorist attacks in almost any year (except deaths in 2001). There are lots of people out there who say you are naive for not believing such data, from our main science agency. Some also say you should be prosecuted if you serve your children raw milk and fail to have them vaccinated.

      In my judgment, the people who say you and others here are dangers to your children and to society over raw milk and vaccinations (and home schooling) are victims of hysteria, fostered by misleading government assertions and studies. I’m suggesting that you and others here who want to ban anyone who comes from seven primarily Muslim countries, or (like a few here have said) has familiarity with or was raised under Sharia, or Islamic, law, are similarly hysterical.

      It has nothing to do with liberal or conservative or anything like that. It’s about keeping some perspective, not getting sucked into a wave of hysteria, the likes of which we’ve had any number of times in this country. The Jim Crow South of the late 1800s and early 1900s was adept at creating hysteria based on any crime (or imagined crime) by blacks against whites, which resulted in more lynchings than you want to know about. We had an anti-communist hysteria in the 1950s that cost many honest professionals their jobs and careers. President Lyndon Johnson (Democrat) used fear of Asian “gooks” to stage the Gulf of Tonkin attack in 1964 that led the U.S. into a war in Vietnam that cost more than 50,000 American lives (and many more Asian lives). President Bush (Republican) used hysteria over “weapons of mass destruction” (which never existed) to launch the Iraq war which cost nearly 5,000 American lives and was the spark that helped launch ISIS and “radical Islamic terrorism” (a war which President Trump has highlighted and criticized any number of times for the same reasons).

      We have people who immigrate to the U.S. from countries where people worship multiple gods (India), or practice voodoo (Haiti), or do any number of things we would consider very weird. But most who choose to come to the U.S. are highly motivated to fit in here and pursue all the wonderful educational and economic opportunities this country offers. And they have long been highly vetted.

      I’m not saying we’re not going to have terrorist incidents in this country, committed by people who have been brainwashed by wacko Islamic teachings. I’m basically encouraging people here to be as critical in their thinking about what we’re being told by our government about immigration and terrorism as we are in our thinking about what we’re told about raw dairy and food safety.

      Just one other thing: There are smart ways and dumb ways to deal with problems like the Islamic ideology. Often, taking a hammer, tempting as it is, isn’t the smartest way. We’re already seeing evidence of a large drop in tourism to the U.S. as a result of the proposed travel ban. There’s a ripply effect that hurts lots of people as jobs are cut.

      • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

        Yes David, “most who choose to come to the U.S. are highly motivated to fit in here and pursue all the wonderful educational and economic opportunities this country offers”. As to how well they have been vetted, it would appear that that is open to debate…

        With raw milk and vaccinations I do not rely on the government to tell me the truth, nor do I rely on the government to tell me the truth when it comes to Islam and those who follow that Ideology. I rely on my acquired knowledge, personal experience, and conscience along with the acquired knowledge and personnel experience of others when I make decisions dealing with such topics and others. I have my apprehensions with respect to all governing bodies and that includes Donald Trump and his administration. That being said I am willing to give him a chance at the reigns.

        The following article from the Toronto Sun entitled, “America is more divided than ever before“ by Tarek Fatah surely demonstrates that Americans used critical thinking, although not the type that some would agree with, when they decided to vote against Clinton and the established political status quo. Indeed a good many of them had their reservations with respect to Trump yet voted for him and the Republican Party!

        Fatah states, “Commenting in June on the Brexit result, I wrote in my column: “The U.K. is not alone. From India to Myanmar; France to the Central African Republic, ordinary people are angry at Islamism.

        ‘If Muslim leaders do not acknowledge the flaunting of radical Islam on the streets and in the workplaces of Europe’s cities, then Brexit is just the beginning.”

        ‘That is the reality America confronts as it now faces the world with a new president-elect.

        ‘It is a divided nation that has just come through a long, hard and bitter campaign.

        ‘One where only Trump was prepared to warn about and take action against the growing Islamist and jihadist threat to America.

        ‘This while Clinton cynically dismissed such warnings as racism, despite the fact millions of Americans are worried, legitimately, about their nation’s security.”

      • Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard

        Mr. Gumpert,

        You write: “Gayle, you are gulping down that government kool aid faster than they can serve it up.”

        Please have your moderator look closely at this statement as it does not comport, or certainly does not comport well, with the expressed opinions governing discourse at TCP. It seems to be a personal attack.

        Have a wonderful day.


        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          Ingvar, my statement wasn’t meant as a personal attack. I was responding more to Gayle’s conclusion that I have been “naive” in my assessment of foreign/terrorist threats to the U.S., to argue she was being too trusting of government views and actions.

          • Ingvar Ingvar

            (*on the fly*)

            Mr. Gumpert,

            If I may, statements of that sort, with their distinct pejorative content, are, in fact, both personal and attacking.

            As Justice Scalia is quoted: “I attack ideas. I don’t attack people. And some very good people have some very bad ideas. And if you can’t separate the two, you gotta get another day job.”

            and this: “Never compromise your principles, unless of course your principles are Adolf Hitler’s, in which case you would be well advised to compromise them as much as you can.”

            Perhaps as the commentariat of TCP, we can find something on this list and negotiate a group rate:

            List of diplomatic training institutions – Wikipedia
            This is a list of diplomatic training institutions. The Diplomatic Academy of the Ministry of … European Academy of Diplomacy,Poland; Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, Tufts University, Medford, Massachusetts; Foreign Service Academy …

            It would only help.

            Clarity is king, civility queen. Long may they reign.

            That would satisfy me.

            All the best to everyone,
            Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard

          • Gayle Loiselle

            David, I drink raw milk, good wine and the occasional beer…but not kool aid…and I think you actually do know that about me. Honest debate and vigorous deliberation are the tools of democracy. Snarky sarcasm feels good in the moment (I’m guilty too, just ask my liberal friends & family) but it does nothing to effect lasting positive change, in the end it only pisses people off, ruins relationships and widens our societies divide. I know you didn’t intend to personally attack me, but I do think you are attacking a school of thought you disagree with.

            I was raised by a really hard working middle class republican father and an equally hard working politically active democratic mother – I don’t indoctrinate well. I homeschooled my kids, don’t get a flu shot and fought in the trenches for food freedom…does that describe someone who “simply accepts the assertions of government officials”??? My concern about the spread radical Islamic ideology through refugees and immigrants is based on my observation of world events, and putting both media bias and the governments party line through my own filter of knowledge and historical fact.

            When ISIS was first rising to power (likely aided by US policy of regime change) Obama dismissed them as the “JV team”, perhaps fearing Muslims would be persecuted, he refused to label ISIS as radical Islamic terrorists. Since then, we have seen ISIS grow exponentially, brutally destroying the lives of millions of people. We watch in real time as “wako Islamists”, as you call them, violently spread their ideology throughout Europe. I didn’t make that up, or blow it out of proportion, it’s not hysteria. When the commander and chief can’t even call it what it is how can he possibly protect us from it? I have no faith that someone who underestimates the danger would have put adequate vetting in place.

            Even RAWMI farmers find E.coli on their farms. And I believe the protocol to fight that is constantly evolving to keep up with a bacteria that mutates over time and becomes deadlier. Makes sense that vetting for a deadly radical ideology would also have to change and evolve.

            I think it was a very wise decision (tho rolled out poorly) to put on the breaks and reevaluate the vetting process from these 7 countries. Countries who’s people are drowning in radical religious extremism who’s mission is to destroy America. That does not make me, or anyone else, anti-muslim, or a nazi, a bigot, racist, or hysterical. The newly elected house, senate and President, all swung republican…I’d wager in large part over democrats lack of will to deal with illegal immigration and potentially inadequate refugee vetting.

            You wrote radical Islamic ideology is a “problem around the world”. Do you believe that “problem” is no threat to America because we got that covered, no changes needed? You regularly write about how government data is false or misleading, yet you still want the government to provide “data or a study” lending evidence to suggest immigrants and refugees will commit terrorist acts on American soil. And just how does one measure, or collect data on the spread radical Islamic ideology? Count beheadings, girls raped, exploded bodies?? Speculation? Educated guess? Conduct a study while Rome burns?

            What if we start by changing the narrative from banning Muslims to stopping the spread of radical Islamic ideology? They are not the same thing. Dismissing the voices of approximately 62 million people as hysterical will only hurt us all. Diversity of thought is imperative for a free society.

          • David Gumpert David Gumpert

            Perhaps too long with this blog has made me occasionally snarky, and I’m sorry if I offended. I think part of the problem here is that Obama (and then Hillary) did a terrible job of explaining what the U.S. has done and is doing to fight radical islamic ideology. I don’t think I (and many others) have appreciated why failing to adopt the term “radical Islamic terrorism” was so off-putting to so many people (including you). The reality is that the U.S. has been using an aggressive drone program, along with major air strikes, intensive intelligence gathering, and special forces attacks to weaken ISIS. Plots have been exposed before they could be carried out. If you look at maps of the territory ISIS controls, it has been receding. But like I said, Obama & Co. did a terrible job of explaining what they’ve done, and let Trump get away with suggesting that because they wouldn’t use the preferred terminology, nothing was being done.

            Just look at the evidence (and I hate to say it too loudly for fear of jinxing things), but I don’t think we’ve had foreigners initiating terrorism incidents in anything approaching the European experience. One reason is that we are further geographically from the Middle East and Africa, but I believe we also should credit our diversity and ability to integrate immigrants as a factor. The Europeans have had a hard time assimilating foreigners, and some of the terrorists have been down-and-out immigrants who couldn’t make it in France or Belgium. To begin erecting walls, and imitating the European experience of over discrimination against Muslims, just doesn’t seem like a productive way to go, any more than have RAWMI members begin heating their milk to kill that last elusive E.coli is the way to go.

            Perhaps changing the narrative as you suggest, by countering the spread of radical Islamic ideology, is the way to go. That involves education and countering the social media side of radical Islamic ideology. I don’t think that building walls and keeping certain religious groups out–creating mass hysteria among Americans– is the way to go. It just creates more evidence that we are trying to fight a holy war against Muslims, which is the narrative the radical groups most want.

          • blesse'd are the cheese makers

            David . . . Just like an alcoholic. You just can’t push away from the bar, can you. There are 12 step programs for this I’m sure. Might check into it.

          • David Gumpert David Gumpert

            Cheesemaker, I figured that any mention of a Democratic politician(s) would be like red meat for you. Really wasn’t intended that way (Democrat vs Republican); but hey, maybe you can be my de-tox counselor.

  • Jan

    Thumbs Up Gayle! I miss that thumbs up feature.

  • blesse'd are the cheese makers

    Okay, David. This has gone on long enough, in my opinion.

    With all due respect, I respect you for having your opinion. I hope you can respect me for having my opinion. In the meantime, I’d say we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

    Might we please move on to something else here?

    Thanks, and God bless.

    P.S. Mark — Yes, cheese making is one of my many, many talents.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Robert De Niro hold joint press conference on mercury and vaccines.

    If there is a risk and there always will be irrespective of the removal of mercury…THEN THERE SHOULD BE CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad


    The link I sent you with respect to the Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Robert De Niro joint press conference on mercury and vaccines was a live stream and will likely not generate the video conference.

    As soon as it becomes available I will forward it to you.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    This is the correct link that will give you access to the Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Robert De Niro press conference on mercury and vaccines.

    Sorry about this mix up,

  • David,

    I get your intentions and they are grounded and good. After Trumps 70 min rambling bumbling idiotic press conference today, even Trump supporters were left speechless. His continued narcissism, self engrandizement, self focus, making up facts that do not exist ( bold face lying ) is just something that the media can not understand. It leaves an ethical and conscious person breathless and ashamed he is president. How can any one trust him?

    Hey….any right winger around here…. Can anyone please explain to me why I should trust a person that can not speak truth or use true facts???? He pulls bullshit out of his empty coniving little greedy head constantly…..literally in every sentence. His words are impossible to understand. He contradicts himself constantly. His newest pick for Defense Secretary refused the job because he said that the whitehouse under a Trump is a f….king mess and he wanted nothing to do with it.

    Is this the president you wanted to lead us??? Please someone explain this all to me. How does this make us great? I am aghast.

    Trump says….his Whitehouse is “running like a finely oiled machine…” oh..did it mention….delusional ?? The right wing should be ashamed….this dude is pathological. I am serious. He belongs in a nut house.

    • blesse'd are the cheese makers

      I have never had much luck trying to explain anything to a fencepost.

      I listened to the same press conference and came away with a totally different take on it. He’s taking it straight to the people. Has to. The MSM will not, absolutely will not, report on his administration without spin and more spin — all negative. Everything the MSM puts out there is negative on Trump. Everything. You believe the spin — go ahead.

      I listened to the press conference with my own ears without the MSM filter. But what the hey, I listen to Rush, Levin, Savage and the other commentators who see things from a different perspective.

      As far as traitors go, Obama and Hillary are the ones who should be in Gitmo with the keys to their cells tossed into the ocean. They need to take that senile idiot Pelosi and that dementia minded Maxine Waters with them, along Diane Feinstein, Chuckie Schumer and the RINO’s as well. What a bunch of nut jobs. And you have the audacity to point fingers at the so-called right? Wow.

      Trump has been in there for only four (4) weeks and you guys are absolutely off the rails. It is an awesome sight to see for me. Keep it up. I have my bag of popcorn and my soft drink. It is really a spectacle to witness all this gnashing of teeth, pounding of chests, and wailing at the walls.

      It is really unbecoming of an adult.

      • David Gumpert David Gumpert

        Now I understand your role here, Cheesemaker: You’re the canary in the Trump coal mine. When the time finally comes that Trump’s antics attacking the media and blaming everyone else for his lack of accomplishment, stop entertaining you, I’ll know his support is waning. Until then, enjoy the popcorn and Coke, and let the entertainment continue.

  • Let me correct myself…..he belongs in Gitmo, for Treason. His actions clearly qualify for Treason. Making best friends with Putin and making deals during his campaign in violation of the Logan act….yep….that’s Treason.

    • Gayle Loiselle

      Mark, Trump BFF with Putin?!? So why is there a Russian spy ship 30 miles off the US coast and Russian jets dive bombing US ships? Doesn’t sound to friendly to me. But who knows, maybe its all a cover to hide a plot perpetrated by Flynn during the campaign at the behest of Trump.

      TREASON!!!! You cry… What do you call the intelligence community leaking classified material to the press? How is that not treason?

      While I respect the job spy’s do, I’d rather not have the folks trained and paid to deceive and lie and sneak around in the shadows making decisions on how to use the intel they gather. This is a systemic problem going back to both republican and democratic presidencies. Perhaps born of loyalty and good intent, we the people, all of us, are going to pay the price for the breach trust within our intelligence community.

      • David Gumpert David Gumpert

        Gayle, it’s truly entertaining to see you Trump people jumping up and down about the leaks of classified material to the press. Dark humor, unfortunately. Just a few short months ago, Trump and his people were turning on their country and begging the Russians to violate the law and hack the private emails and servers of Hillary Clinton and other Democrats. It was all great fun. Why were those leaks so much fun, and these leaks “Nazi tactics,” (according to Trump), or “treason,” (according to you)?

        • Gayle Loiselle

          Wow, so I not only slurp up the kool aid, now I’m a “you Trump people”? Did you miss the part where I said “This is a systemic problem going back to both republican and democratic presidencies.” I have accepted the reality that Trump is the current president of the United States. Many of his proposed policies scare the hell out of me but I also agree with him on some issues. Yes he is offensive, but sadly, I don’t think you realize that your starting to sound like you went the same prep school.

          Thought this would be a reasonable place to bat this ball around – I was wrong.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad


    Clearly we find ourselves in a catch-22 situation where freedom of expression and gender equality is at odds with an extremist ideology that has demonstrated a huge dose of contempt for both. Indeed, and this is the type of divisive “narrative” that radical Islamist groups such ISIS thrive on and “most want”.

    They no doubt view it as a holy war (Jihad) the rest of the world, especially Europe is merely attempting to protect itself, albeit haphazardly, in light of that extremist ideology. Caught in the middle are the innocent victims being uprooted and exploited for the sake of such a war.

    Is the West including the United States of America without fault? Certainly not!!! It’s hunger for oil and resulting exploitation of Arab nations in order to satisfy that hunger has certainly helped to fuel the current dilemma. Indeed, what come around goes around in a world where human religious and secular reasoning is based on ego and greed.

  • Cheese maker,

    Thank you for your excellent explanation. You said it all very simply and clearly. ” Rush, Levin, Savage,and others….”
    Nothing more needs to be said. I now completely understand.

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    Putin is playing Trump for the damn fool he is. He is a 10 year old ADD child.
    Where are Trumps taxes… much money flowed from Putin to Trump in the last few years? It is no wonder Trumps Taxes are always under audit.

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    Hundreds of years ago, the world was visited by two star ships. One ship came from the Star Leftist….and the other Star Ship came from the Star Rightist.

    Some of the aliens married and made normal offspring and some could never reconcile their views of the new world.

    On planet Rightist…greed, fierce independence, self image, ones own needs outweighed all other traits. Planet Rightist did not believe in schools or rules. They enslaved or even killed everything they didn’t like and never liked anyone that did not look or act themselves, they built walls to keep those unlike themselves away, they poisoned their waters, they poisoned their air, they could not ever get along with any of the other people on their planet. On planet Rightist, they believed that they were the chosen few and thought they were the only ones that mattered. It became so bad they had to leave and find another place to live.

    On planet Leftist…the people had their problems also, but they were different. They were highly educated, embraced science and had perfected space flight and wanted to seek out other places to live because they were inquisitive. They shared and cared for one another. They traded with others and did all they could to protect their planet called Leftist.

    To this day…the leftists and the rightists try hard to inhabit their new earth….but the DNA keeps coming through. The Left is trying to save the planet and adjust their ways to assure good conditions, the Right denies the science and wants to have things like back in the Great Old Days on Planet Rightist, when they exploited others and exploited their planet, burned all the oil and eventually had to leave.

    Sound familiar…..

    What is it that creates such different DNA down deep inside of people. Apparent irreconcilable differences that make up the social fabric of humanity. What is it??

    The more I consider Rush, Savage and others like them…the more I know that their is a planet called Rightist.

  • Gordon S Watson

    one of the rules of speaking in public, is : “never ask a rhetorical question … some guy in the audience is bound to give you an answer you aren’t expecting”.

    “Snake-bit”, as you are MarK McAffee … thoroughly-entranced by the propaganda purveyors … UN-able to accept that America had a peaceful transition of power, you asked for enlightenment, so I’ll give it to you, gratis.

    Re : “What is it that creates such different DNA down deep inside of people. Apparent irreconcilable differences that make up the social fabric of humanity. What is it??” One answer is what Sheldon Emry used to preach i.e.. the “2 Seedline Theory”. Not saying it’s one I cleave to, yet, studying it, one has to admit it does have some logic and a lot of anecdotal evidence in support. It is one of the core doctrines in the Talmud … the sacred scripture of the group which you say proclaimed demselves “the Chosen-Ites”.

    careful, Mister McAffee ; you’ve crossed the threshold to David Icke territory. A couple of months ago, you asserted that President Trump is “the anti-christ”. I predict the next stage in your Trump Derangement hysteria will be : stating that Donald Trump is a ‘shape-shifting reptile.’ Absurd? Of course it is, to right-thinking people. But that lets you out … your rants over the last 5 months proven that you’ve slipped the moorings of what used to be the “common sense” of white Christian America. Every single time you have unloaded your own angst in text, you threw yourself on the side of the enemies of the Republic.

    Dr Henry Makow’s commentary today, is a superb explanation of what’s going on ; elements of the Deep State are fighting it out among demselves, using public figures as sock puppets. You and all the Social Justice idiots thrashing-around, sucked-in to the confusion, are the fools they need as distraction from the real issues

  • I can not reconcile the concept of our elected leader lying to us bold faced and repeatedly. I can not reconcile that some group of American people love to be lied to. When Trump claimed that he had won more electoral votes than anyone since Reagan, that was a lie. Obama had won many more electoral votes than Trump. So had others. When challenged he claimed that someone had told him this. Who was that someone?? Was it his team or just his way of speaking. Whatever it was….it was a factual lie. Words matter….data and facts matter. The media is driven by truth and facts. That’s why they check the facts…. Even Fox News is pissed at Trump.

    Trump does no independent research. He restates blindly what his puppet master Steve Bannion tells him….or what his little inner voice randomly tells him any time his mouth opens. The media is so perplexed by this anomaly…..they can not do the math to figure him out.

    In the end…..he is simply a liar and cannot be trusted to tell he truth. Anyone who says otherwise is either not looking at facts, or believes his twisted spew.

  • charles

    Let’s talk about raw milk. If any one is interested. Is anyone?


    Charlotte Smith was asked to speak at the National Farmers Union Women’s conference on March 4th in San Diego. Her message of building “value added” super high quality raw dairy products and selling them through high quality consumer direct relationships is catching on. The NFU audience will be challenged by this message. The mid western NFU members struggle constantly on their unslaved CAFO pig farms while serving big brands and Monsanto GMO and the like. Becoming liberated, sustainable financially, unprocessed and consumer connected is like screaming there is no Pope in a Catholic Church. Charlotte is one of personal heros!! First to be RAWMI listed and always a teacher and awesome mentor.

    I am also speaking as a co presenter along side a USDA soils researcher later in the main conference. The title to our presentation…..From Soil to Body the dirt to gut connection. I will also mention how raw milk is emerging internationally as a beloved and long lost food….and why and how this is happening.

    With the merger of Organic Valley and Horizon, OPDC was just ranked the #2 Brand of organic milk ( in dollar volume for gallons sold ) in the entire USA organic fluid market by Spins Data Monitor. That is up from #4 brand two years ago. This speaks volumes about advances in safety, RAWMI, consumer connection and the unfiltered truth about gut physiology. When a food is delicious, non allergenic, easily digestible, immune building, …sales will reflect this fact regardless of industry attacks using false or biased one sided information that is spread around to discourage purchase.

    That’s ranking is with just sales inside of CA with a warning label!!!

    As we all know, raw milk can be many things….it all depends on the conditions and intent of its use. If it is for pasteurization….it can be risky and should be pasteurized, if for human consumption and produced with great care, testing and under proper conditions….it is not only very safe, but wildly consumer friendly with high value added to everyone in the food chain!!

    Now that’s talkin about raw milk.

  • Gordon S Watson

    Charles … I feel the same way as you do, I came here originally, to talk about the Campaign for REAL MILK. It’s disappointing to see this forum = otherwise very valuable = get dragged down into the swamp. Especially disgusting is witnessing Mark McAffee, squander his reputation, floundering-around in existential anguish … one foot nailed to the floor … alienating his longtime supporters. We can be sure that the opponents of REAL MILK are chortling to demselves, as they watch this political movement fracture.

    but bear in mind ; Mister Gumpert advertises that his blog is about the politics of raw milk. Which inevitably leads off into the thickets of partisan-ship. The fun part is = reading the screams of dismay, as die-hard Hilary-ites are on the receiving end of harsh political speech, for a change. Take Mark McAffee [ please ! ] presenting his-self as the posterBoy for crypto commies, so vocal about dishing-out the vitriol, exposed by his own comments as pathetically UN-able to cope with blowback.

    as ugly as he’s been for the last 5 months, Mark McAffee’s stream-of-anguish rants are valuable = illustrating the bi-furcation of the nation : on one side, the white Christian “old stock”, longing for the Republic which was stolen from us by race traitors whom we allowed to creep into the high places of government.

    On the other side, for the sake of shorthand term = the communists and their dupes. Masterful in fomenting grievances. As always throughout history … destroyers …marshalling the mixed multitude as shock troops against the Republic. Breaking down the hedges of protection around the country. Relentlessly promoting the swarm of locusts from the 3 rd world arriving to “eat up our substance”. Which is the penalty prophesied in the Bible, when we = Israel-itish people – turn our backs on our God.

    Mr McAffee’s mindless mantra about “you Trump people” being “racists” is galling, but the remedy is = is to laugh at their illogic … sneering at us as “racists” for simply defending our territory …. while they shamelessly pander to every ethnic group BUT the white race.

    the installation ceremonies last week, swearing-in officials for the Trump Administration, were a joy to behold. Imagine! praying to Jesus Christ for protection! and ending with “God Bless America”!

    • Gordon S Watson

      someone sent me the quote, below ||| of course, it made me think of the relentless rants posted on this blog, for the last half-year.

      “but the most brilliant propaganda technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success”. cited from chapter 6 entitled War Propaganda: volume 1 of the book Mein Kampf by A. Hitler (1925) available in a new edition, thoroughly annotated with updated references by the Government of Germany >

      The drums of war, are being pounded, daily. by whom? and, “Who benefits?” After 60 years of paying attention, I am sure of one thing “All wars are wars for the usurers”

      • Blesse'd are the cheese makers

        Elementary, my dear Watson: Elementary.

        Might I offer a footnote to your observations, Mr. Watson?

        I might add that I am going to go out on a limb here and offer the following discussion of “The Rule of Law” in an effort to find some common ground, if that is possible, on this highly divisive discussion on immigration.

        I shall call this, “The Rule of Law and Three Modes of Immigration” and will begin with a quote from Thomas Jefferson: “The most sacred of the duties of government is to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens.” Thomas Jefferson, 1816.

        First, we need to narrow the scope of the discussion, since, up to now, we have, on both sides of the political spectrum, been speaking in gross generalities. Please allow me to elaborate.

        With regard to the term “immigration,” I propose we break this term down into three categories:

        1) Legal immigrant — where the non-citizen complied with all the laws related to entering the US legally as a visitor for a specific purpose or is legally on a path to become a naturalized US citizen;

        2) Unlawful Presence – where the non-citizen complied with all the laws related to entering the US legally as a visitor, but who has illegally stayed in the US after his/her agreed time has elapsed; or,

        3) Illegal immigrant (improper entry) – where the non-citizen illegally and unlawfully sneaks into the US.

        The first question for all of you out there is this: Does our heated discussion include all the above?


        I, personally, have absolutely no problem with non-citizens immigrating to the US via all the legal requirements. Are there any of you out there on the “right” side of the equation or on the “left side” of this equation who has a problem with this class of individuals being here in the US? Is so, please elaborate and enlighten us on your position.


        I, personally, have an absolute problem with any of these non-citizens who illegally enter the US, with no documentation and without complying with our laws. This is called “improper entry” under our laws and it is a federal crime. If you believe that it is okay to break our laws to sneak into this country, thereby committing a crime just in this act, please elaborate and enlighten us on your position and provide the authority and legal bases to support your position.


        This category may be a bit more of a gray area. Many foreign nationals enter the US on a valid work visa or travel visa but fail to exit before their visa expires. What do we do about these folks? It is not a crime on the books to do this, although there are civil penalties associated with this. I would argue that, although this is not a crime, this is definitely a “breach” of the agreement that the non-citizen made when he/she was allowed access to the US. We’ve always told our children that if you abuse your privileges, you might lose your privilege.

        In my view, the real discussion here concerns this class of individuals. What say ye?

        I will conclude with this. We need to define the argument or we will end up in the place Mr. Watson describes, above.

        I do believe that we will argue till the cows come home if you believe that all three of these categories of non-citizens have some sort of Constitutional right to come to the US and/or remain in the US once caught.

        However, if it is possible to narrow this argument down to the real issue at hand, i.e., illegal immigration, then we might find that we share some common ground – or not.

        Your thoughts would be appreciated. No name calling, please. Thank you.

    • Emma G.

      I think that part of the problem for Mr. Ilgert is that he has a prominent website advertising his products – which looks suspiciously like a private buying club – which were ruled illegal in Canada in 2011 (see R. v. Schmidt, 2011 ONCJ 482). All agriculture-related commerce in Canada is regulated, under government and marketing board control. There are no exceptions, no “private sales” in Canada.

      If he is operating a buying club in contravention of the law, then yes, he will get in trouble. But operating a true herdshare is an entirely different matter and his operations would look quite different if he was. He needs to organize his members ASAP if they are not already organized, and ensure that they as a group completely own and manage the livestock, not him. That might help protect him against prosecution. Some advice from a Canadian agister at :

      “The farmer needs to transfer ALL control of ownership of the herd to the group and have the members of the committee take full responsibility for handling owners who join and leave the group. The farmer can have NOTHING to do with this. If he/she doesn’t do this they are effectively still in control of the animals and a court will regard this as proof of ownership by the farmer. A simple test is to ask yourself: What would you do if the group come to you one day and said, ‘Dear Farmer, we don’t like the service you are providing us and we’ve found another farmer to look after our cows!’? Would you try to stop them, or would you acknowledge that they own the cows and therefore it is their right to take them somewhere else? This is what true ownership looks like.”

      Are the members of the Ilgerts Organic Farm herdshare organized enough to be able to move their animals to be boarded and agisted at another farm? They may need to be, if the authorities take harsher action.

  • Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard

    Yes I am interested in raw milk.

    Of course. And a total thank you to all of you making that happen. And never not that.

    That being said, a hearty thank-you to you Mr. Gumpert, for this website. Including the political trails that have appeared so clearly.

    I am going to say something along those lines.

    Once upon a time I was a casual consumer of political information.

    Remember the “Badgering of the Australian PM” story a few weeks ago? A lawyer, Mr. Mirengoff, posted on that story. What follows is my reply to Mr. Mirengoff:

    Did Trump “badger” Australia’s PM?

    It pains me to say this Mr. Mirengoff.

    I have not read your piece.

    Neither will I read the Washington Post (WP) piece.

    The WP has poisoned itself. You seem to wander about the poisoned wells, miffed that others (a presidential election’s worth of others at that) are steering clear of those wells. What is the attraction? You can have stink without deleterious effect on your soul and mind by visiting Bumpus Hell.

    I will not concern myself with intentionally snarled balls of yarn.

    President Reagan was a fantastic man and a fantastic President. I believed the lying b*cr*p of the left in re. to Reagan because at the time I was a casual consumer of political information. Now I know the continual war waged against Godly freedom, war in all of its forms and Godly freedom in all of its forms.

    Here is my choice.

    I stand with every word in Patrick Henry’s speech of March 23, 1775 and with every word of James Madison in the Federalist No. 62 from this point:

    “To trace the mischievous effects of a mutable government would fill a volume. I will hint a few only, each of which will be perceived to be a source of innumerable others.” to the end.

    Including this accurately damning statement:

    “The internal effects of a mutable policy are still more calamitous. It poisons the blessing of liberty itself. It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be to-morrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can that be a rule, which is little known, and less fixed?”

    If the child in the womb is not safe, nobody is. What does it take to stand with those who would (and have, and do, of course) plunge a scissors’ tip into the head of a newborn to kill it, to sell the parts of it’s body to those waiting to pay for them? And with those who buy?

    Secretary Clinton does so stand. The Democratic Party does so stand. This part of our country is a horror. We must eschew it.

    The “Press” has one job and one job alone:

    to give testimony that is faithful to the truth. They do not so do. They are a culture that can be fairly described this way: they lie, they omit, they distort. Their ways are changeable that we may not know them.

    To the Washington Post and all the others that have made that bed in which they repose: bite me.

    The MLK bust in the White House issue:
    Zeke Miller is a tool. Nancy Gibbs should be fired for gross negligence. Did the “retraction” reach the same audience metric that their 100% pure, Grade A bullshit reached? Of course it didn’t. That’s the calculation. Well, you’re fired.

  • blesse'd are the cheese makers

    A little placard on the wall in my mother’s kitchen when I was growing up had the following words:

    “There is so much bad in the best of us
    And so much good in the worst of us
    That it hardly behooves any of us
    To talk about the rest of us.”

    Easier said than done, right?

    • Gordon S Watson

      yup … 99% white folks literally backing up PRESIDENT Trump. The very people who showed up on Nov 8 and installed THEIR representative in office, to guide the nation in the direction THEY want. what are you insinuating? … that support from that particular demographic is a bad thing? So who’s the racist here ?

      When I was a boy on the playing fields, we were taught “magnanimous in victory ; humble in defeat” See if you can grasp that one, Mark McAffee … often called “sportsman-ship” … one of the core values of white culture, i.e. … what Made America Great. Conspicuous by its absence in the crowd with whom you threw in your lot

  • Tearing families apart, ICE created screaming children begging for their parents kidnapped by heartless headless government SWAT teams, ejecting the hardest working least appreciated workers in America, ejecting tax payers, deporting Dreamers that have never even learned to speak spanish???and only speak English, deporting students and fully employed people, that have never lived in Mexico, triggering a collapse of the hand picked vegetable and fresh fruit industries with commensurate increase in food imports or simply a huge rise in food prices …..I have a big problem with this. I think even the most hardened American citizen could not bear the objective view of watching ICE in action. I suggest an amnesty program with full registration and a road to citezenship for all those that may be considered to be here illegally.

    Prior presidents on the republican side did just this. How do we stem the tide of illegal immigrants…how about we stop creating conditions around the world which predispose to mass immigration. Siria, South America, Mexico, Palestine, etc….the good old USA contributed to these conditions by not fairly trading with these countries and supporting dictators and tirants, and continued economic oppression of the natural and human resources of third world countries in order to uphold and enrichen corps and billionaires in America,

    Mass immigration happens when people are forced to flee when conditions will not support life!! Lets stop creating conditions that force people to flee.

    Trumps latest naked lie!!! He spoke of Sweden and the massive disaster they suffered last week. The Swedish are now asking the American government to please explain what they meant….there was no incident or issues!!! Trump was merely repeating what he had heard on Fox News several hours earlier….completely unsupported totally false and fake.

    I will say that Pence was speaking with intellengence and poise in the EU at the very same time. He spent his time calming nerves and reassuring our allies that all was ok aka…..never mind what the leader says….everything will be ok and we will support NATO even though Trump says otherwise.

    If the right wing wants America to swing right….no problem. Please. Please please….just choose some one who is not a friggin crazy lying idiot as you swing right. Did you see the audience behind Trump in Melbourne Florida on his first reelection campaign rally ( 1000 days early ), they were 99.9% white and those signs,….lock her up etc.

    Trump won with 46% of the vote….Hillory got 54%. Over 3 million. More votes. Call it a right wing miracle.

    • Blesse'd are the cheese makers

      Mark states: “Trump won 46% of the vote . . . Hillory (sic) got 54%. Over 3 million. More votes.”

      So who’s lyin’ now, Mr. Mac?

      This crap with McAfee has gone into psychotic psychosis OCD manic depressive land.

      I realize I am wasting my time on this, but I just want to correct the record here for Lyin’ McAfee.

      Electoral Votes — Trump 306; Clinton 232 (A legal win of the election based on our current law and the Constitution which was ratified in 1791)

      States carried — Trump 30; Clinton 20 (Clinton 27 if you use Obama’s math on number of states in the US — either way, Trump wins majority of states)

      Swing states carried — Trump 8 of 13; Clinton 5 of 13

      Last but not least, the popular vote:

      Clinton 65,844,610; Trump 62,979,636 — Difference — 2,864,974 (not “more than” 3 million, as Mr. Mac erroneously states)

      Margin as a percentage: 2.1 percent, not 8 percent as Lyin’ McAfee indicates.

      I will note that Clinton won the California popular vote by 4.3 million. If you take California out of the equation, Trump wins the popular vote for the rest of the 49 states — again, a clear majority.

      Get over it Mark. Get some therapy. Go back to milking cows. Whatever, but please get yourself out of this state of mind. You are making yourself sick and we are getting tired of watching you twist in the wind.

      Please, Nurse Ratched. Give Markie his meds — quick.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      This from Organic Consumers Association:

      “Trump’s Mexico wall and his pronouncements that he’s going to round up and deport all immigrant workers present a rather serious challenge to U.S. food production, whether organic or non-organic. The bottom line is that most of our farmworkers, and many if not most of our restaurant and other food chain workers (processing, warehousing, distribution, retail) are immigrants without citizenship papers. If Trump follows through with his threat, much of the U.S. food and farming system will collapse.”

      • blesse'd are the cheese makers

        Your reference material (OCA) is not a credible source for the proposition you put forward. I have read the blog and I have reviewed OCA’s IRS Form 990 filing for 2014. This outfit reports that it is registered as a 501(c)(3).

        I would say that the content of this site is coming dangerously close to losing its tax exempt status in that it supports/opposes the adoption/rejection of certain legislation, it is teeming with political activity, and its annual 990 report is not complete. Finally, based on this, I wonder if this organization is actually pursuing the activities it represented to the IRS to get its 501(c)(3) status.

        Last, but not least, this outfit shows that it received more that $1 million in grants from individuals, but does not name these individuals. So . . . what is the source of money for this “non-profit”? These are all legitimate questions when trying to assess the credibility of the source and whether the source has its own agenda.

        I remind you that Trump has only been in office four weeks. Everything we are bantering about back and forth is nothing but speculation and what-ifs.

      • Gordon S Watson

        the source you cite for that quote, illustrates perfectly how propaganda works … present a bit of something accurate, within an overall implied falsity. Nowhere has PRESIDENT Trump ever said he will deport people who are working in the US of A, legally. You – all keep dropping the word “illegal” when you go off into your tirades. Do you want a nation of Liberty under Law, or not? Or is your position that ‘cheaters do prosper, if enough of them flood in’ ? Is it your position that you get to pick and choose which laws you prefer to abide-by?

  • Obama Care aka The ACA works great at OPDC and …..its affordable. ??? How could that be??

    Every employee at the dairy, creamery, distribution, truck drivers, farmers market employees….everyone enjoys free raw dairy products for themselves and their families. How does this have anything to do with our ACA company health care benefits? Yes….every employee and their families are covered under the ACA here at OPDC and our affiliated companies. Here comes the great connection….for the second year in a row, we are getting a huge $70,000 refund of premiums we have paid out in our compsny paid for group plan. Why?? Because on average our employees are so very healthy. We all drink raw milk!!! And rarely ever see a doctor. Our plan returns premiums when we have fewer uses of the benefit.

    That’s the great ACA and nutritional connection. Nearly 100 employees that benefit from great coverage….and great health from raw milk and measurably better immune systems. Our insurance coverage and return of premiums proves it.

    Thought you might appreciate a great demonstration of how it should work.

  • David,

    Thanks for the link to Dark Forces.

    It should be known, that antiGMO and pro-organics was and is a left wing movement and always has been. Organics was founded by farmers with pig tails and dreadlocks selling to mothers with tie dye tee shirts at farmers markets.

    Big everything, including: Wall Street, Billionaires, Monsanto, CAFO protectionists, farm subsidies, big cotton, big soy, has always been the right wing conservative position. There have been cross overs on the food freedom bridge….but that’s about it.

    Raw milk is that one very strange common thread that every one from every walk of life….every political species….has been seen to share in common. What a wonderful bridge of peace or war….depending on how you look at it. There you have it friends…..

    We are the rare bridge shared by all parties…..all religions…..all cultures. Like it or not….raw milk is the tie that binds. It is no wonder we fight like cats and dogs over politics.

  • I must add…..organics is the true action, personal consumption, economic life force and incarnation of the environmentalists movement. The right wing could give a damn about the environment or anything thoughtfully related to caring for our earth or our fellow man.

    • Gordon S Watson

      “The right wing could give a damn about the environment or anything thoughtfully related to caring for our earth or our fellow man” that comment being the absolute nadir of venal stupidity in Mister McAffee’s half-year descent into madness. So far. Before I realized his condition was critical, I tried using mild satire, to dissipate the stench of his verbal diarrhoea on this forum … asking ‘when would a psychiatric intervention be warranted for someone with Trump Derangement Syndrome?’. At this point, it’s no longer a joke. “The right wing” ?? whatever the hell that means, to you!

      since Mister Gumpert is letting his forum include partisan-ship to the Nth degree … I encourage the one or 2 readers who still care about the corruption in the campaign of 2016, to have a look at the compilation of evidence proving candidate Hilary Clinton had at least 2 body doubles. The bigger the Lie, the easier it is to fob-off on the Mark McAffee types


  • blesse'd are the cheese makers

    Wow. It sure has been quiet over here the last couple of days.

    So, anyway, a rabbi, a priest and an imam walk into a bar . . .

  • charles

    LOL , that’s a good one!

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    “Nikki Haley, newly appointed US ambassador to the UN, exposes the ludicrous anti-Israel bias at the UN security Council, and vows to stand up to it.”

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