Who Is That Guy Teaming with Sally Fallon Morrell to Debate Raw Milk?

sallfanddg-harvdebate

Sally Fallon Morrell and I at the raw milk debate at Harvard Law School in February 2012.

Editor’s note: Three days after this post appeared, a spokesperson for the Weston A. Price Foundation committed to correcting the error I describe here. Details at the end of this post and in a comment following this post.

The current issue of Wise Traditions magazine, the official publication of the Weston A. Price Foundation, includes a writeup by Sally Fallon Morrell of a debate on raw milk held this past summer at a food safety conference.

She provides an interesting description of a provocative discussion at the annual conference of International Association of  Food Protection. Arguing in favor of raw milk were Joseph Heckman of Rutgers University and Ted Beals, a retired pathologist. Against raw milk were Jeffrey Farber of the University of Guelph and Jeff Kornacki Texas Tech University. (Sorry, the magazine isn’t online.)

Especially interesting to me is that Sally Fallon Morrell’s writeup says there was a similar debate nearly five years ago that “featured myself and Mark McAfee at Harvard University in 2012.”

Hmmm….I could have sworn that was me together with Fallon Morrell at the 2012 Harvard debate, arguing in favor of raw milk, and not Mark McAfee. And as I remember it, she and I spent a lot of time in the days before the debate, exchanging slides, and determining who would argue which particular issues and statistics. I thought we made a good team.

So I went back and looked at the video of the event on YouTube and, sure enough, there I am sitting next to Fallon Morrell, together with Heidi Kassenborg of the Minnesota Department of Public Health and Fred Pritzker, a product liability lawyer, both of whom argued against raw milk.

It was a provocative and educational evening for a lot of people. More than 150 people crowded into the Harvard Law School debate hall, while some 2,400 people plugged into the debate via livestreaming. And since that evening nearly five years ago, more than 50,000 people have listened to the debate on YouTube. That’s a lot of people who have been educated on the pros and cons of raw milk.

One of the reasons the event received so much attention is that serious debates about raw milk don’t happen very often. Prominent opponents of raw milk are reluctant to debate the subject, perhaps because arguing against raw milk is a difficult to case to make in the face of its exploding popularity.

So I looked at the YouTube video once again, and damn, I don’t think I look at all like Mark McAfee. In fact, I’d say we look pretty different.

How could Fallon Morrell have mixed me up with Mark McAfee? Or maybe she didn’t.

Last week, I emailed Fallon Morrell, along with her public relations agency of record, and pointed out the error. I asked one of them to let me know if it was just an editing snafu that led Fallon Morrell to place Mark McAfee with her at the debate. If that was the problem, I said, I’d appreciate a correction in a followup issue of the magazine, and that would be the end of it, no need for any kind of public disclosure.

No answer.

So I sent an email to the main Weston A. Price Foundation email, similarly asking the executive director for an explanation of the error, and requesting a correction.

No answer.

So now I have to assume the worst—that the error was intentional, a clumsy and distasteful effort to rewrite history. I have to assume that the effort to rewrite history was prompted by the angry debate a year ago over fermented cod liver oil, during which Fallon Morrell prohibited Weston A. Price Foundation chapters from linking to my blog, with the threat of ex-communicating violators from the national organization.

Fallon Morrell’s action of rewriting history is especially regrettable, because rewriting history and spewing lies are favored tactic of the large pharmaceutical and Big Ag corporations she likes to rail against for their production of vaccines and tainting of food products. Such corporations will often pretend that departed executives cease to exist, will mis-state their roles in influencing regulations, will hide actions to influence protective legislation, will minimize news of sickness from their products, and so on.

As a result, we know we can’t believe much of what they say about vaccines, GMOs, or anything else. I’m afraid Fallon Morrell is now operating in the same realm.

I now find myself wondering about all Sally’s presentations I’ve sat through at WAPF conferences (going on this weekend, coincidentally) on the research of Weston A. Price and on the history of raw milk. What has she misstated and misrepresented because of some personal grudge or some inconvenient truth?

All that comes on top of last year’s traumatic debate and discussions about the safety of fermented cod liver oil, when lots of people lost faith in WAPF’s credibility after it continued to insist on endorsing the product in the face of convincing evidence of safety problems.

It’s sad, because once a respected educational organization like Weston A. Price Foundation has shown itself to be simply a vehicle for dispensing propaganda and lies on behalf of an authoritarian leader, it’s on its way to losing ever more credibility. Credibility, after all, is its most prized asset.

(On November 14, I received an email from WAPF’s chief administrator, Kathy Kramer, as follows: “Sally’s error in citing Mark McAfee rather than you was unintentional. We did not receive an email from you but were told this was a concern to you. We apologize for any distress this has caused you. We will make the correction to the article online as soon as we return to the office.” I accept the apology and the commitment to a correction, but am sorry it took a blog post and extensive comments of concern to make it happen.)

136 comments to Who Is That Guy Teaming with Sally Fallon Morrell to Debate Raw Milk?

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    I know all about Sally Fallon Morrell rewriting history. Welcome to my world.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Guess I’m a late learner.

      • Gordon Watson

        David Gumpert : as for the mistake made by Sally Fallon in the latest issue of the WA Price journal … cool your jets. Like Elton John sang = “Get back to where you once belonged” … in realtime on the farm … rather than the frantic cyberworld. In the world in which you and I grew up, a week was not a long time to respond to correspondence. you may be trapped on the IN-sane treadmill in the 24-hour-news-cycle. But she isn’t … probably out doing the chores / catching up on her email once a week. You’ve jumped to a conclusion, used an argument from silence, then put the worst spin on the situation. What would be more appropriate right now, would be for you to serve up a dish of humble pie … acknowledging that Donald Trump was elected for the good and sufficient reasons now truckling-out from the libtard commentators = white Christian America couldn’t stomach any more of the anti-christ globalist agenda of the O’Bush-tons. Since you refer to the Health Ranger on this forum occasionally – it’d be worth following up on his report (today) that Monsanto Corp. was a major donor to the Clinton Foundation. 45 of the emails in the Big Dump by Wikileaks prove what a consummate liar she was, on the issue of Genetically Modified Organisms = Hillary Clinton turns out to be the biggest political Whore of them all. Prison is too good for her. She ought to be charged with Treason and dealt with accordingly

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          Gordon, believe me, I wish it were just a matter of Sally being busy with her chores, or with the conference. But I was in touch way before the conference, with her and associates. I know from experience that Sally pays close attention to email. If she had wanted acknowledge the error, and give me an “oops,” it would have happened very quickly. This isn’t the first time I’ve sought some reaction, comment, correction, and been given the silent treatment. Same thing happened when I sought comment concerning allegations about her husband’s alleged inappropriate behavior with women attending the WAPF conference. And when I sought comment on various aspects of the fermented cod liver oil controversy. Silence. If there’s a change, I’ll gladly eat humble pie.

          As for Donald Trump, I have to marvel at all the media pundits now speculating that Trump didn’t mean all his threats and that he won’t follow through on his promises to trash the climate-change agreement, trash Obama Care, appoint Supreme Court justices who will trash abortion rights, throw out immigrants, restrict or even ban Muslim visitors, trash the nuclear peace with Iran, trash America’s alliances with Europe and Asia, and appease Putin (you should love that one, wonderful old Communist that Putin is). These are the same media pundits who predicted an easy Hillary Clinton win.

          No, I stick with my blog post that Trump modeled his campaign on Hitler’s political tactics. If you look at history, you find that tyrants invariably tell you in advance of assuming power what they’d like to do, and then they follow through on what they promised. I think Trump has already trashed the notion of “American exceptionalism” with his attacks on America’s political process (all “rigged”) and that we’re likely transitioning into a post-Constitutional phase of benevolent (at least initially) dictatorship. When Trump invents reasons not to leave office (after four years, or eight years), just remember that you read that prediction here.

          And for the record, I don’t blame “white Christian America” for Hillary Clinton’s debacle. Trump knew how to appeal to their legitimate grievances. I blame the two million or more voters who normally would have supported the Democrat against a would-be dictator, who opted out of voting. Those people, many of whom thought they were standing on some sort of moral principal by abstaining, simply handed over their power to Trump supporters. Finally, please do me a favor and don’t cite Natural Health News as a legitimate source of accurate information about Hillary Clinton, or anything else. The fact of the matter is that the conservative Republicans have been trying to sabotage Hillary since the 1990s (remember Special Prosecutor Kenneth Starr, who earlier this year had to resign as president of Baylor because of a botched sexual assault case on campus?), and never got a single guilty verdict. If there was anything there, she would have been convicted of something way before the Health Ranger’s “revelations.”

          • Pete

            You don’t like NHN? How about this source:

            https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/563

            Or maybe this source of donors during her tenure as Secretary of State who also lobied the State department (including Monsanto):

            http://www.vox.com/2015/4/28/8501643/Clinton-foundation-donors-State

            But the issue of Monsanto is small stuff. Her handling of classified information in the emails is more than enough to lock her up for a long time. Many people have been locked up for far less. It is only political wrangling on the part of the Obama DOJ that prevented it. This can’t honestly be denied.

            And I won’t even get into the issue of her accepting money from foreign governments during her tenure, which same said governments she knew were funding terrorist groups.

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    Hey guys…..Sally is very busy at her annual conference. Give her some time to fix the error.
    I know for a fact that I did not sit in on a debate session at Harvard a couple of years ago. I would have loved to….but that was our dear friend David….

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Mark, sorry to see you dragged into this. While I’ve come to accept that Sally is spouting all kinds of half truths and even lies, I’ve also decided that when the lies affect me, I’m going to address them publicly…..because if they’re ignored, they become the truth.

      • Mary McGonigle-Martin

        Yes they do. The next thing you know, it will show up in a book she edits and publishes.

      • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

        David,
        I agree with your point about ignoring a half-truth or a lie and leaving it unchallenged. What is inconceivable and disconcerting however is to think that a lie can “become the truth”. Some people may think I am splitting hairs here, but for me it’s important to understand that the truth is immutable despite whatever attempts used to manipulate it.

        Sally Fallon aught to contemplate on this statement by Lionel Shriver, a.k.a. Margaret Ann Shriver, “A successful lie cannot be brought into this world and capriciously abandoned; like any committed relationship, it must be maintained, and with far more devotion than the truth, which carries on being carelessly true without any help.”

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          Ken, good point about a lie. I should have said it can become the truth in some people’s minds. As a matter of fact, I learned of the article in Wise Traditions from a friend, who emailed me, “Sally says Mark McAfee debated with her at the Harvard raw milk debate. Wasn’t it you who debated with her?”

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    I have learned one thing in the last year…..Americans are 47% mentally challenged simpletons and will follow and believe a sociopath that will say anything to get elected. I also learned that the Latino, black and educated vote failed themselves miserably by failing to show up!!! Where was the great black rescue team in the Obama coalition??

    When our president elect was asked whether he regretted saying all the terrible things he said during his campaign….he said ” it worked….I won!” Yes….it was all about winning. Not about anything else. No morals, no ethics, no ideas. Just winning and stepping over the bodies at any cost.

    We have just witnessed a right wing coup using the Hitler playbook. But interestingly, psychologists will tell you that bully’s are actually very weak and not strong at all. I would be very surprised to see our new president do anything that he said he would do…he lied about his ideas. He has none….he faked and hated his way into the White House. That’s why he never ever stated a clear policy on any position.

    Now….he is saying….what the hell do I do now? …I was just joking. I didn’t mean it. Did you see the look on Melonias face after he was declared the winner….it was sheer terror!!

    He is a lost little rich kid sociopathic bully and he is in trouble. For all of the fools that voted for Trump as the great white answer….you watch. He will do nothing on his MAGA list. On his third day after being elected, he has already changed his positions and modified his agendas. The ultimate camelion….the Russians have sent their mole. No repeal of Obama care, no build the wall, no eviction of illegals….those were all just angry crowd pleasing hatred triggers to get elected. He now knows damn well, that all of those things are rediculous and would make him wildly unsuccessful as a president.

    It will now be the democrats that will be damn glad we have our second amendment to secure our first and fourth. Hunker down for 3.5 years…. and vote the sociopathic narsistic chameleon out and at the same time win back both houses of congress. Where is the heart and soul of America? I am deeply saddened not so much by Trump….but by my disappointment in my fellow Americans. It is we who failed one another. We are not as great as we think we are. We can never be great….if we hate.

    47% are just simple fools in the truest sense. The balance is not 53%. unfortunately….the rest are fractured and do not know who to follow. Thanks to the FBI and the third party candidates, the balance is not a strong consortium of 53%….they are a scattered disenfranchised emotionally distraught mess.

    • Bless\'ed are the Cheese Makers

      I really don’t know quite how one would respond to this left wing cry baby rant. Here’s the way I see it. Mr. Obama spent eight years trying to utterly destroy America. He is a Saul Alinsky disciple as well as the recent democrat nominee Hillary Clinton. Not only were both of these anti-Americans Saul Alinsky disciples, but they have both done everything in their power to implement Cloward-Pivin.

      Have they taken us past the point of no return? We will see. We will see with whom Trump surrounds himself. We will see if he indeed pares back this government leviathan. We will see whether he has the best interests of America at heart.

      Whatever the case, the election is over. It is time to grow up and move forward. Using terms like “sociopathic narsistic (sic) chameleon” and “Hitler playbook” is not going to win friends, since, as noted, Trump was elected by a majority vote.

      Contrary to your broad sweeping stereotyping, Mr. McAfee, many many folks with IQ’s far above 120 voted for Mr. Trump, or, should I say, voted AGAINST Hillary Clinton. You may not like the results, but we live in America and Trump won the election fair and square, in spite of all the liberal left wing media bias that was fully stacked against him. I am utterly dismayed by all these children out in the streets now throwing temper tantrums and acting like two year olds who didn’t get their way. That is not the America I was born in . . .

      I suggest you review the US Constitution and the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers; you read “Rules for Radicals” by Saul Alinsky; you take a look at the volumes and volumes of reading material out there referencing Cloward-Piven; read all three volumes written by Richard J. Evans regarding the rise and the fall of the Third Reich, read about the historical context of the Weimar Republic in the early 20’s and how hyperinflation completely destabilized Germany after WWI and brought about the playing field which would foster someone like Adolf Hitler to come to power; read “The Law” by Basitiat and “Economics in One Lesson” by Henry Hazlet; — then get back to me on your rants and raves about how great Hillary Clinton would have been.

      No, Mr. Trump was not my first choice. But, for me, his being an unknown wildcard factor placed better odds on him from my perspective versus what I absolutely knew we would get with that crook Hillary Clinton and her the Clinton Crime Family.

      I hope Mr. Trump proves you wrong, Mr. McAfee. For the sake of all of us.

      • Bob

        Trump is an empty vessel and you could see the glee in Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan’s faces as they knew he would be so malleable to their agendas. Already all of the old Republicans are swarming around him trying to get a piece of the pie. So much for the “outsider” (or as you call him-wildcard) that would shake up Washington. It’s the same old faces coming out of the infamous “swamp” that was part of one of his popular catch phrases, that will be running the show. Trump was elected by majority ELECTORAL votes, not popular, which is ironic because Trump whined during the Romney/Obama election that we should abolish the electoral college. He ran on fear and racism and won. He’s the originator and torch carrier of the birther movement, which was a movement of pure racism and he carried that torch right into his run for office. The word “narcissist” is hardly inaccurate. His own employees have admitted that he would only read articles about himself, he practically lived on Twitter pumping himself up while tearing other down. If anything, “narcissist” is too mild for this guy. He knows nothing and will be a tool for those that do.

        • PLEASE tell me why the “birther movement” has anything to do with race. The only racism I see is the notion that any time someone brings up something they don’t like about a minority, the reason must be racism. It’s entirely possible that someone may not like Obama because of what he stands for, NOT because he’s black. But people who hold the premise that anything negative said or felt about a minority is automatically racist seem far more racist (not to mention paranoid) to me.

          As for Trump running on “fear and racism”, you like so many of your peers are in total denial about what really led to Trump’s victory. You have stood so strongly in your personal ASSESSMENT that you don’t have a clue why most people voted for Trump. Until the anti-Trump team makes an honest effort to understand the feelings of “the other side”, there will be no unity in this country. Don’t blame that on Trump.

          I have not seen more fear coming for any group or individual as I have from liberals who are terrified of Trump and will say or do anything to “save themselves” and make him wrong.

          The bottom line is that people who think like you have in this post are a huge part of why people voted for Trump. They are sick and tired of liberals who propagate paranoid accusations and act as if their concerns are the only legitimate concerns facing people in this country.

          • David Gumpert David Gumpert

            Julie, you use some fancy verbal footwork to gloss over some issues:

            On the “birther movement”: It has been widely viewed as racist because it has never been an issue for any white presidential candidate before, including John McCain, who was born in Panama. Suddenly a black candidate appears and suddenly it’s an issue. The U.S. Constitution provides that the president be “a natural born citizen,” which means he or she be born to an American parent. The fact that Obama’s mother was an American citizen took care of that qualification, so even if Obama had been born in Kenya, where his father was from, he would have been an American citizen and eligible to be president. Colin Powell, a prominent Republican, labeled the movement “99 per cent racist.” Trump has a history of racial discrimination– in the 1970s, he and his father settled federal discrimination charges stemming from their refusal to rent apartments to blacks, so the idea of him discriminating against blacks isn’t a new one.

            On the “rigged election” charges: It was Trump who said the election would be rigged. A number of prominent Republicans disowned his charges, but Trump kept making them. Now, after the election, it’s not Hillary Clinton or any prominent Democrats making the same charge. The protesters around the country seem to be saying they don’t like Trump, not that the election was “rigged” in the same way Trump was suggesting, which was through voter fraud. You’re making an apples-and-oranges comparison.

            On voter fraud/voter registration/voter ID laws, you say “Many wonder why assuming that black Americans are too stupid to find their local DMV and don’t have identification… makes them racist.” I’ll tell you why. The entire history of voter disenfranchisement originated in the South, under Jim Crow laws designed to make it difficult or impossible for blacks to vote by requiring difficult-to-acquire (for some) ID and/or knowledge testing. Much of the 1960s Civil Rights movement was about getting blacks the vote. It succeeded and was made official via the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and it changed the face of American politics, especially in the South. The Republican efforts over the last decade in a number of states to enact laws to make it more difficult to register to vote have mostly been overturned by federal courts as racially discriminatory, based on the landmark 1960s laws.

            Finally, I never said Trump was “the next Hitler” or pursuing a “Hitler agenda.” I accused Trump of using political tactics similar to Hitler’s–of denigrating his country’s important institutions (like its voting process), of denigrating war heroes, of personally insulting and humiliating other politicians (including Republicans), of scapegoating minorities (like Muslims), and of promising to “make America great again” in a way that Hitler promised to make Germany great again.

            One thing you never mention in all your justification of Trump and criticism of liberals is the issue of jobs. That’s what had people most pissed off and voting for Trump. Trump has committed to bringing back jobs he says were lost overseas because of bad trade deals. What happens when those jobs don’t return, as they almost certainly won’t, because they were lost due to huge shifts in technology and the trend toward globalization? You can be sure Trump won’t admit he was wrong about why the jobs were lost, and that he doesn’t have any more idea than the next pol about bringing them back. No, he’ll come up with distractions. The two most popular distractions for authoritarian leaders are wars and racial/religious scapegoating. We’ll see if he follows the usual script.

          • blesse\'d are the cheese makers

            Mr. Gumpert —

            With all due respect, I will attempt to address your points one at a time.

            First point — “Birther movement” — Hillary Clinton’s 2008 campaign is where this little movement began. Based on your analysis, Hillary was and is, therefore, a “racist.” Colin Powell, if he leveled this allegation against Trump and claims that Trump started this, is completely ignoring the fact that Broom Hillary used this very tactic when she ran against Obama eight years ago.

            Second point — “Rigged Election” Many Republicans, aside from Trump, have been concerned about the extensive media bias against Trump in particular, and the conservative Republicans in general. Some level of voter fraud, primarily perpetrated by Democrat candidates, has been found in several instances in Texas in the last three or four primary elections. I would be interested if you could identify the unnamed “Prominent Republicans” of which you speak who have “disowned” this allegation. If Mitch McConnell said this, for instance, no surprise since he is an inside the beltway neocon.

            Third point — More on “Voter Fraud.” I have to have an ID to drive a car, cash a check, get a hotel room, buy liquor, get a credit card, get my license plates, and a myriad of other every day comings and goings. What is the disconnect with liberal democrats that I don’t need an ID to vote? And how in the hell is that a “racist” position? That is just insane.

            Fourth point — As far as “Hitler tactics” go, the entire “praetorian guard” media uses these Josef Goebbels tactics nearly every day. As far as “scapegoating” minorities is concerned, the left merely scapegoats the Christian right. But . . . same old tactics on either side of the aisle. Pot calling the kettle black on this one . . .

            As far as what may or may not happen in the future regarding jobs, speculating that things might not work out and then hanging that on Trump before he even takes his oath of office is a bit unfair, don’t you think?

            I agree with Julie on this point. Many of us are sick and tired of this racist crap. Never has one president stirred the pot of racism more that the current president. I, personally, cannot wait until this Saul Alinsky community organizer who never worked a real job in his entire life is gone from the White House.

            Will Trump help make things better? We will know the answer to that soon enough.

          • IdahoLaura

            blesse\’d are the cheese makers and Julie,
            THANK YOU for your very reasoned replies.

          • Pete

            You’ve jumped the shark David. There were republicans making an issue of it with McCain. Trump himself made it an issue with Cruz. The birther issue itself came from the Clinton campaign and wasn’t helped by Obama’s failure to quickly produce a valid birth certificate.

            Accusations of ‘racism’ has lost their bite. We don’t care. That slur became meaningless when it became clear whites are racist by virtue of their skin color and black can’t be racist, no matter how much they call for killing white police officers and genocide against whites.

          • Bob

            Step out of the alt-right bubble. I know facts won’t change your mind.
            http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/16/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-claim-hillary-clinton-/
            Trump won the presidential election while losing the popular vote by one million votes (and counting). So, yeah, maybe he’s right. The election’s rigged.
            The paranoia lies with the Christian Right who somehow still believes that there is a war on religion. Why? Has anyone prevented you from celebrating Christmas? Isn’t it still a Federal holiday? What other religion gets their own federal holiday? Did Jesus say it was a-ok to condemn and discriminate against those not like you? Trump condemned political correctness but what he really meant was the ability to to be rude to and insult others while ignoring the rights of others because only his rights matter. Using religion as an excuse to deny the rights of others is just another name for discrimination.
            David is quite right about the loss of jobs. Automation has made many factory positions obsolete. Labor costs are much, much cheaper in a global economy. The America that Mr. Trump wants to return to is the America of the 1950’s where blacks knew their place and most of the industrial nations were decimated from WWII. This left America as one of the few nations able to produce goods for the rest of the world, creating a huge economic boom. That scenario is no longer the case. We are competing in a global market. Unless, as David mentioned, Trump wishes to pursue more war, there will be no way to “make America great” to the degree of the 1950s. That was a unique situation in history. It’s time people looked forward instead of backwards to a time of religious discrimination, severe racial bias, isolation from the rest of the world. While the rest of the world is developing new technologies, energy efficient transporation and learning to work together, we can go back to burning coal, drinking polluted water under brown smog skies and watching reruns of The Apprentice dreaming of driving 1955 Oldsmobiles down open highways.

        • IdahoLaura

          Really??!!! Trump was the originator of the birther movement?? HAHAHA I can tell you aren’t a Republican. Trump got into it later in the game. It originated back in the 2008 election by the Democrats for Hillary. Then the Tea Party took it over. I didn’t vote for Trump (and definitely not for Clinton) so I have no axe to grind. Your “which was a movement of pure racism” is pure bull pucky. Many people like me are not racists, just down to earth humans, but we could smell a rat with Obama’s birth certificate.

          • David Gumpert David Gumpert

            You guys are repeating lies that have long ago been shown to have no basis in fact. This from Politifact.com, a respected organization that tracks accuracy in politics:

            “There is no record that Clinton herself or anyone within her campaign ever advanced the charge that Obama was not born in the United States. A review by our fellow fact-checkers at Factcheck.org reported that no journalist who investigated this ever found a connection to anyone in the Clinton organization.

            “Clinton, herself, answered this very accusation after Trump’s tweet during an interview with CNN’s Don Lemon. Lemon asked Clinton if she started smear campaigns that Obama was born outside the United States.

            “That is – no. That is so ludicrous, Don. You know, honestly, I just believe that, first of all, it’s totally untrue, and secondly, you know, the president and I have never had any kind of confrontation like that,” Clinton said. “You know, I have been blamed for nearly everything, that was a new one to me.”

            http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/sep/23/donald-trump/hillary-clinton-obama-birther-fact-check/

            Trump took that birther ball in 2011 and ran with it, for more than five years.
            http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/politics/donald-trump-obama-birther.html?_r=0

            If you have documentation that Hillary Clinton launched the claim beginning in 2008, I’d like to see it….from a real and credible source. I’m not saying you or anyone else who believes this stuff is a racist, I am saying that the political professionals who launched the claims had racist motivations.

          • Gordon Watson

            ” … that the political professionals who launched the claims had racist motivations” ? … Devvy Kidd was one of the hardest -working of them all on that topic. Onus is on you Mr Gumpert to substantiate such allegation against her, or anyone you can name. Rather, we are “race realists” ; meaning = people who know that in the English language, there is one species known as “homo sapiens” divided into various subgroups, called ‘races’. versus the Lib-tard nonsense that “there’s only one human race”

            The birth certificate thing was entertaining for a while. The classified ad in the Honolulu newspaper, announcing the birth of a baby boy to Miss Dunham is convincing. Curiously, though …. why isn’t there hard evidence of a particular hospital which claims to be the actual place of birth for Mr Obama? And we never did see the original of any certificate of birth, did we? Closest they came was, the governor of Hawaii saying we had to take his word that there is one!!

            Proof that Barry Suetoro was NOT a US citizen, is = the fact that he attended university on a Fulbright scholarship >>>> Reserved for FOREIGN students. Get around that!! But it’s all just water under the bridge. O’bama has done all the damage the Manchurian candidate can, and he’s moving offstage to the trash bin of history, as the worst president the Republic ever had

    • Sue Diederich

      Hence the entire American political system!!! Good to see you, Mark! Don’t forget – much of
      Congress remains the same with a few seats vacated for Republicrats as opposed to Demicans… 440 people have to allow or deny. (5 Reps devoted to territories that people forget when calculating power in the House).

      GS

    • Jill Herendeen

      OTOH…the American vote-count being at least 80% unverifiable, the vote-count may very well have been rigged in favor of Trump. (What better way to discredit his pre-election warnings, eh?) And, as far as not voting goes…is not voting worse than voting and having your vote flipped to the opponent of the person you voted for? You tell me.

  • This is just sad (and scary). Rather than lie, the statement of who she was with didn’t need to be made at all. I now wonder if she’s having some mental health problems. I will always be grateful for her wonderful book “Nourishing Traditions”, but this FCLO debacle is such a shame. Pride and fear, if given in to, can certainly derail us. Poor Sally.

  • Bless\'ed are the cheese makers

    I must agree with Mr. Gumpert on this. This is not an “honest” mistake unless Ms. Fallon has recently been diagnosed with dementia or Alzheimer’s.. In addition, to not correct it immediately is very telling as well. If she were on the “up and up,” she would at least shoot an email to David and fall on the sword and let him know she’ll fix it in the next edition. NOBODY is too busy to fix that egregious of an error.

    No. Methinks that Ms. Fallon is attempting to “rewrite” history as a retaliatory tactic. Too bad, you are correct, David. Weston A. Price Foundation via Ms. Fallon, continues to erode and undermine its own credibility.

    By the way, who is Mary McGonigle-Martin? Is she a Bill Marler troll?

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      Since you don’t use your name, we don’t know who you are. I’m not a troll for Bill Marler. He is a friend and represented my son after he became ill from drinking contaminated raw milk 10 years ago. David knows exactly what I mean regarding my comments about Sally. He knew how Sally treated our family and the lies she told about my son’s illness, so it should not be shocking that she is now doing it to David, especially her refusal to respond to emails.

      • Gordon Watson

        as for ” … lies being told …”, t’would be good when introducing thyself, to admit that THERE NEVER WAS ANY EVIDENCE linking a given instance of illness suffered by the McGonigle-Martin princeling, to raw milk. “The nature of evidence is that it can be tested. If it can’t be tested, it isn’t evidence”. The lawsuit run by Marler + Co. was settled out of court, as happens more times than not, with claims against purveyors of food. And it would be much more honest – every time you drop by to pollute the discourse – to include as your signature, comparison of the actuarial tables of poisonings occasioned from a bad burger served at a fast food joint, versus provable harms from artisanally-produced raw milk.

        • Mary McGonigle-Martin

          Gordon you are a sad, pathetic man.

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            Do you, Michael and John Moody want to take me on? There is something wrong with men who bully moms of raw milk victims. What the three of you are doing right now to the Kentucky moms is exactly what Mark and others did to me. One day people were so cruel, I hired Bill Marler. I’m sure Mark wished he handled it differently. You may want to talk to him.

            I retire from my job in 5.5 years. I have a great retirement plan and will be financially set. Post retirement, I plan on teaching college classes. You have all motivated me to come up with this plan. I can earn $3.000 a month for teaching one class. That would be $6000 a month if I taught 2 classes. I’m going to use this money to fight you bullies.

            I’ve accomplished a lot in within this movement in the last 10 years with working a full-time job and having a child I am responsible for. Just think what I can accomplish when my only focus will be to fight the misinformation about the safety of raw milk.

            I am a quick learner and my experience in Iowa has trained me well. You have no idea what I am capable of. What none of you bullies understand is that a mom who endures watching their child suffer and almost dying from HUS, is profoundly changed forever and the thought of another family suffering the same fate haunts us. We made the choice to give our children raw milk because we had misinformation about its safety. This misinformation came from the WAPF and the book The Untold Story of Milk. This misinformation is still being spread today.

            Your insensitive words fuel a desire to educate others about the dangers of raw milk if the milk becomes contaminated. Moms within the raw milk movement need to know the damage that could be done to one of their children by consuming raw milk. They need to know this before they make the choice to give raw milk to their children. Imagine how strong our voice will be when there are multiple moms advocating for balanced information about both the pros and cons of children consuming raw milk. I will have the money to make this happen.

            Gordon, you have pushed me to a new level and I thank you for that.

          • Gordon S Watson

            like I said = one hysterical female with a bee under her bonnet.

            UN-fortunately, we lost a great artist last week = Leonard Cohen, who sang “everybody’s got to feel his pain”. ie. You, all-over Mrs McGoogle, yapping away relentlessly for attention, unable to stand back and assess the facts. You’re on the losing side of this movement Ma’am. When I came along in 1995, having been motivated by The Milk Book by Dr Campbell Dougless ( still an excellent primer on the topic ) there was one little raw milk dairy in Washington State ; namely Our Lady of the Rock, run by Mother Teresa milking one cow. Fortunately, she maintained the state licence. Today, there are 28+ licenced dairies in Wa.. 2 Decades ago, raw milk was more-or-less illegal, in most of the US of A. Today, 42 states have schemes under which REAL MILK is available. Say what you want, about him, that situation is attributed to one guy = the genius Aajonus vonderplanetz = Who stood in the gap and put the Los Angeles County authority in its place, with hard evidence to substantiate what he was saying. British Columbia will soon be the first province in Canada, to change its law on raw milk for human consumption, largely based on an epidemiological study demonstrating that “outbreaks” of illness from consuming raw milk, have dropped as dairies employ the RAWMI protocol. There goes the rationale for the BC Regulation, ie. that ‘raw milk is inherently so dangerous it’s always hazardous to the public health’…. . such a precedent will work for the rest of the Dominion = 33 million people. The real “deplorables” are : those who refuse to change their opinion in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary

          • Emma Gardner

            Update: thirty-nine licensed dairies in WA State right now. Up from 5 in 2006.

            And the total count is now 43 states with a means of legal access to raw milk, including MD now where P.A. Bowen Farmstead is licensed – that brought the total to 43. Up from 34 states in 2006. This includes five modes of legal access: farm-gate sales, off-farm retail and market sales, herdshares, “pet milk” sales, and by doctor’s prescription.

          • Emma Gardner

            Mary, I am a mother whose four children have all benefited from drinking raw milk.

            There is something very wrong with anyone – man or woman – being so vindictive and angry that you want ban raw milk and hence leaving my family to black market operators who produce questionable products.

            The risk is not in raw milk – the risk is in *contaminated* milk. The key is to prevent contamination, and it can be done.

            Here is some history: Processed meats were causing large numbers of illnesses, hospitalizations and deaths in the U.S. The USDA worked WITH and funded the meat processing and slaughtering industry to implement HACCP plans – this was in 1997. By 2004, there had been a 40% reduction in outbreaks. You can read about it here: http://www.cdc.gov/foodnet/PDFs/Report.pdf

            But when raw milk farmers ask government for assistance in producing a safe product, they are told to get lost. I know this from talking to farmers who have asked, and met a stone wall.

            So – receiving NO support or assistance from government food safety experts, despite numerous requests – the raw milk agricultural sector had to build a food safety system without any government funding or assistance. Hence, RAWMI was formed.

            The key to safety, just my own opinion, is a full plan combining:

            – A HACCP-based on-farm food safety (OFFS) plan – RAWMI’s RAMP and SSOP provides these.
            – Food safety training – learning how to prevent contamination from happening (udder preparation, equipment cleaning and sanitation, proper farm conditions, etc.) and learning how to prevent bacteria from growing (clean containers, rapid chilling, etc.)
            – Regular bacterial testing, including pathogen testing, because coliform testing does not catch everything. If you have a 3 cow herd, then testing once a month may be sufficient. My current farm is milking 4 cows and we test twice a month. Larger farms should be testing more often.
            – Educating your consumers to keep a “food safe kitchen” and NOT allowing cross-contamination to occur in the home – true for all foods.

            But, if you had your way, Mary, no state would have legal raw milk – you made that clear in your testimony in Utah. Instead, would you consider lobbying for mandatory training and on-farm food safety plans – which for example every commercial dairy farmer in Canada must have (the CQM progam). How about mandatory pathogen testing? How about promoting what RAWMI does, in training farmers in how to produce low-risk raw milk?

            We share the common goal, Mary, of preventing future outbreaks. How about we find common ground and work together to educate more farmers on how to produce clean, low-risk milk?

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            Emma, Please read Mark McAfee’s comment below. I know all about RAWMI. I am actually very knowledgeable about Washington’s raw milk history. David Gumpert and I met in 2009 at a raw milk conference hosted by the veterinarian association. I forget what their name is. The conference was in Seattle and David was a presenter.

            After the 2005 Dee Creek outbreak, the state of Washington said, “If you can’t beat them, join them.” They felt it was better to have licensed raw milk dairies than a black market. They did a lot of education with the Hispanic community in regards to cheese making. Teaching them how to use pasteurized milk instead of raw so that kids didn’t get sick. It was called the Abuela Project. In the years following raw milk legalization, there were multiple E.coli raw milk outbreaks–5 from 2006-2011. In fact one dairy had two outbreaks in one year. In the last 5 years the state of Washington has not had an E.coli outbreak.

            This was a huge leap in what you said thinking my goal was to ban raw milk in states where it is already legal. Did I say that somewhere? My goal is to make sure that when parents who are choosing raw milk for their children to drink they know the pathogens that can contaminate the milk and the illnesses that each of these pathogens can cause. Emma, can you name all the pathogens that can get in raw milk and the illnesses they cause? My other goal is not to allow raw milk to become legal in states unless there is serious education about its dangers and a serious testing protocols.

            Yes we share the common goal of preventing contamination in raw milk and therefore preventing outbreaks. I think RAWMI is wonderful and a great start in educating everyone in the raw milk business about pathogens and safety protocols, however pathogenic E.coli is deadly and 10 cells can cause a severe illness. I read somewhere that 250,000 cells can fit on the head of a pin.

            Despite Mark’s best efforts with RAWMI, he still had another E.coli outbreak earlier this year. Why? Keep in mind this pathogen has only been in our food supply since the 1980’s. It is not a pathogen our grandparents and great-grandparents had to contend with when consuming raw milk. I personally think it is a game changer for raw milk consumption. Again, it doesn’t take gross negligence to get 10 cells of E.coli in warm raw milk where it can quickly multiply. A speck of manure can be deadly.

            As for testifying in Utah. I’ve never testified in Utah. The states I testified in did not have testing protocols, labels, etc… for the milk. It was a free for all and anyone could go into the raw milk business. Not a good idea. Producing raw milk is not like growing vegetables. I think you would agree. The Weston A. Price Foundations goal is for all states to have access to raw milk without any regulation oversight. This is dangerous. This is why in the past I have gone to states to fight against raw milk bills.

            Please keep in mind that our children are the most vulnerable to the E.coli pathogen and they are the ones who suffer the consequences of the illnesses. I have kept track of all of the U.S. raw milk E.coli outbreaks since 2005. There have been a total of 19 outbreaks, 145 illnesses, 56 hospitalizations, 36 have developed HUS–35 of them were children under 18 years old, with the majority being under 10.

          • milkmama

            Mary, are you confident that growing vegetables cannot easily result in contaminated food that can make people very sick? Might want to re-consult with those families sickened by spinach, or, canteloupe, just to name the broadly advertised outbreaks…

          • milkmama

            Mary, I like some of what you said here. Can I make one small shift? It seems to be quite often overlooked, and used for misinformation, as you say. Despite this small change, I included quotes simply to show which part I took from your post.

            “Your insensitive words fuel a desire to educate others about the dangers of MILK if the milk becomes contaminated. Moms within the MILK movement need to know the damage that could be done to one of their children by consuming MILK. They need to know this before they make the choice to give MILK to their children. Imagine how strong our voice will be when there are multiple moms advocating for balanced information about both the pros and cons of children consuming MILK.”

            I used caps to show where I removed the word, “raw”. Is it your position that milk that is not raw, cannot sicken people when consumed? Oh that it were true. My family would certainly operate very differently today if so. The people who lost family members to listeria-tainted ice cream would probably love to have been “educated” about the the dangers of product that had become contaminated.

            I’m sure this is old rhetoric to you. Just couldn’t continue without pointing out your overly simplified, conveniently omitted details. We could substitute a host of foods for the word “MILK” in your statement. I do realize that you have been deeply hurt, and that certainly helps direct your desire to create this “life’s work”. Interesting also, how hurt is also true for many others of us. It’s how I came to be so passionate about real food, and even specifically raw milk. Just still wondering here how your passion only extends to eliminating raw milk, rather than to simply giving people the “pros and cons”, as you suggest, and then allowing them to make the decision themselves. Or even extending your passion into “educating” people about producing milk that hasn’t been “contaminated”. I have been around long enough to hear from you, that that is not your intention. For all of your excellently worded enthusiasm, your statements really are not consistent with what I’ve sensed from you. Care to clarify?

          • Emma Gardner

            A list of some pasteurized milk outbreaks in the U.S. – https://rawmilkpolicy.wordpress.com/information/pasteurized-milk-outbreaks .

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            The WAPF pushes the belief that raw milk is healthier and safer than pasteurized milk and that pasteurized milk is the evil milk. This foundation encourages parents to consume it over pasteurized milk because it is a healthy, healing food. They tell their members that raw milk has properties that kills pathogens, that grass fed cows don’t harbor pathogens, and that if you know your farmer, your milk will be safe to drink. All three of these beliefs are false, yet this foundation refuses to correct this misinformation. Children have become seriously ill after drinking contaminated raw milk because their parent (s) were led to believe it was safe to drink. Name another high risk food that has a foundation encouraging parents to have their children consume this food because it will heal children of illnesses and strengthen their immune systems?

          • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

            Mary,
            With respect to your question, “Name another high risk food that has a foundation encouraging parents to have their children consume this food because it will heal children of illnesses and strengthen their immune systems?”

            Does it have to be a foundation? What about government institutions such as the Department of Food and Agriculture, the FDA and CDC that are in charged of the nations safety and make the claim that GMO foods are safe and… go out of their way to deny consumers the info they need to make an informed choice?

            And why limit your question to food… what about vaccines?
            Despite a United States Supreme Court ruling in 1986 declaring, “Vaccines are unavoidably unsafe” the CDC along with its many employees persist with the claim that “vaccines are safe” for children and will “strengthen their immune systems. In fact they have gone out of their way to cover up certain vaccine side effects in order to reinforce the above claims and they are becoming increasingly belligerent with parents and doctors that don’t conform to their vaccine protocol.

            http://www.globalresearch.ca/vaccinations-deadly-immunity/14510

            If a picture is worth 1000 words the the following video is worth 10,000 words.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d–3q9PP3mA

            As to the foundations claims that:
            “Raw milk is healthier and safer than pasteurized milk”.
            I totally agree with this statement…

            “The foundation encourages parents to consume it over pasteurized milk because it is a healthy, healing food.”
            I have no problem with this statement… Raw milk is, a healthy healing food, I encourage my children to do likewise. That being said, unlike the CDC I leave it up to them… I do not expect them to agree with me, nor do I attempt to coerce them.

            “They tell their members that raw milk has properties that kills pathogens”
            What I disagree with in this statement is the term “kills” and the term “pathogen”.
            Rather, raw milk has symbiotic properties that encourage a selective healthy microbial environment. In other words it is a living probiotic food.

            “Grass fed cows don’t harbor pathogens”.
            Again I disagree with the term pathogen…

            “If you know your farmer, your milk will be safe to drink”
            The only word I would change in this claim is the term “safe” and replace it with the term safer, as in, free of artificial hormones, drugs and pesticides etc.

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            I knew this was coming. We’re talking about food.

          • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

            Mary,
            Everything we do is related to food and our susceptibility to illness and disease… Focusing on a specific “food” or microbe while effectively disregarding the root cause prejudices our perception of that food or microbe. It represents a tunnel vision approach to a problem that we all to often encounter in conventional medicine, politics and religion. Such an approach is neither constructive nor productive, and worst of all, tends to be cruel and arbitrary.

          • Gordon Watson

            your premise is faulty, thus your conclusion can only be faulty. REAL MILK – prepared knowing that it will be consumed without it being par-boiled – is not a high-risk food. As proven by the figures comparing illnesses caused by Pasteur-ized milk, versus raw milk : see the URL link from Emma Gardener: that chart says all that needs be said to anyone with the intellectual integrity to admit the facts. It ought settle your hash, Mary Mc-M, once and for all … but of course it won’t : there are none so blind as she who WILL NOT see.

            ≈what fun! now, that our racial enemies are aghast … having figured out that they lost the election because of “white-lash” … it never occurred to Hillary and her crowd, that they could lose in the game of ‘identity politics’ but Donald Trump and his handlers understood that white people are re-awakening to our identity … The Campaign for REAL MILK, for instance ; us rediscovering our heritage food. So = Mary Mc-G. = you can spend the rest your life, yapping -away with your absurd notion that raw milk is “too dangerous”, but you’re not going to stop the tidal wave of REAL MILK

          • Gordon S Watson

            I’ll put your latest response in my lexicon of terms under “ad hominem attack” … can’t deal with the issue, so you lash out at the messenger. The all-too-typical hysterical female lashing back, when confounded by logic. Put your $$ where your mouth is, M McG-Martin … After a decade in this political arena, surely you’re an expert on the topic? … so, let’s just have the facts ( for a change) = in your relentless campaign to demonize raw milk, onus is on you to produce the actuarial table used by the insurance company, under which Jack & the Box operates, and compare that to the database used by the company which insures Organic Pastures Dairy. what do you bet is the industry with the LOWER like-lihood of a consumer being poisoned, from a single serving? Your mentor Mr Marler can call-up that information with a few keystrokes, he being the guy who represented individuals who were PROVEABLY harmed by food from Jack+the=
            Box. Whilst your at it, get us the figures for raw spinach, raw cantaloupe, and raw alfalfa sprouts … which undeniably killed dozens of people. Versus not one single death caused by raw milk produced by an artisanal dairy, intended for human consumption.

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            There have been one or more raw milk E.coli outbreaks every year since 2005. The only year there wasn’t an outbreak was 2007. So in 5.5 years, there will be 5 more E.coli raw milk outbreaks. Social media connects us easily. You just don’t get it Gordon. That’s OK I will use you as a tool. You are so easy to manipulate. 🙂 You have no self-control. Like I said, you are a sad pathetic man. Hugs to you Gordon.

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            Gordon, never underestimate any woman and what she can accomplish when the motivation that drives her is the love of her child/children.

          • Emma Gardner

            Ditto, Mary.

          • Gordon S Watson

            enough with the emoting : see if you can focus on the issue, McGoogle > that being > relative risk of harm from all categories of foodstuffs in commerce, versus raw milk intended for human consumption UN-processed. Did you miss the textbook example which went on this last summer, along the north West Coast of N. America? Shellfish infected with “vibrio”, from RedTide condidtions in particular bays, made it to market. Although confined to back door sales of free-booters [ recent non-white immigrants who didn’t know any better, let alone, do they care about the consequences ] , rather than commercial purveyors, 65 people = THAT WE KNOW OF = were made seriously ill. Some, wound up in hospital with HUS. The BC govt. immediately ran interference for this million$ industry, put out public relations propaganda, throwing $$ to the legit. businesses, for training in “handling” … as if they had no understanding gained from 100 years’ experience! Meanwhile …. this provincial govt. prosecutes raw milk dairies, disregarding testimony from its own expert witness = that there is NO record of anyone getting sick in BC from drinking raw milk, in the last 3 decades. Oh, I do ‘get it’ a lot better than you do, Mrs McGoogle, as you’re locked-in to your little dance, one foot nailed to the floor, for the last decade, hypocritically pretending on this forum that you can live with freedom of choice to do with REAL MILK, yet traipsing-around to other venues, turning on the taps with yr patent sobstory, demanding complete criminalization. . >>>> The WA Price Foundation, and Sally Fallon in person … moved mountains, educating Americans as to how they’d been lied-to on food issues. Literally millions of people have seen their health improve, with availability of REAL MILK. And what do you have to show for your efforts all that same time? It was a highlight of my life to see President -elect Trump finish the marathon … , “going away” ( as they say in the Sport of Kings / horse racing ) … educating all the simpering LibTard media types about the true character of America. Like them : You’re outta touch

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            Blah, blah, blah, Gordon you are just a bunch of hot air.

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            Yawn…….a bunch of hot air. Avoiding the real issue. Ted Beals had trained you all well with his BS data. I’ve been around long enough to remember when the leaders in the raw milk movement denied that raw milk illnesses happened. By 2010, they could no longer deny the illness, so they put the focus on all the other foods that have made people ill. There are so many reasons as to what causes a food borne illness. But that isn’t the issue here. The issue is that raw milk is a high risk food because the cows ass is close to the teats and when cow shit gets in the milk it makes children very ill. Pathogenic E.coli showed up in the food supply in the early 1980’s. It is a game changer for raw milk and why parents need to be informed about this pathogen before they decide to give raw milk to their children to drink. It is a deadly pathogen. This is the issue Gordon. See if you can stayed focused on it with out straying to unrelated topics.

          • Gordon Watson

            Ted Beals md. has been accepted as an expert witness in Courts of Law from Ontario to California, since 2008. Any reasonable person reading his curriculum vitae, would have sense-enough to defer to what he has to say about the safety of REAL MILK, contrasted with all other foodstuffs in commerce. But from your relentless patent screed = MaryMc-Gonigle Martin = quite obviously you don’t have that minimal 2 grains of common sense to rub together to on the topic. You’ve told us that your career plan is, to ride that One-Trick pony of yours, off into retirement. When you get to that Happy Hunting Ground, give my regards to Gene & Dale Autry, Roy Rogers, Hopalong Cassidy, and all the others who made good livings merchandising fantasy

          • blesse\'d are the cheese makers

            Thank you for your input, Mr. Watson —

            Here’s my two cents in favor of grass-fed, licensed dairy raw milk production and consumption where the consumer knows his/her dairyman and trusts that dairyman. In this scenario, my contention is that unpasteurized milk is inherently safe, not inherently dangerous.

            Support for this position —

            8,000 years plus of homo sapiens drinking unpasteurized milk — conclusion here — safe

            6,500 plus years of homo sapiens making cheese from unpasteurized milk — conclusion here — safe

            David Gumpert — extensive research and well-documented books on the subject — conclusion here — safe

            Ted Beals — qualified medical expert, admissible in court — says safe — conclusion here — safe

            Against —

            Ms. M Mc-M — no proof that is was unpasteurized milk that caused her injury — it is all based on circumstantial evidence — but on a crusade asserting it’s not safe — not qualified to give an expert opinion — inadmissible in court

            John Sheehan — FDA — former Leprino Foods executive — says not safe — Has heavy bias toward big dairy. May be allowed to testify but credibility big issue. Could skewer his “opinions” in cross examination . . .

            Bill Marler — Food litigation attorney — says not safe. Has financial stake in taking this position — that’s how he makes his money. Not credible.

            More data in support of unadulterated raw milk consumption —

            Let’s take a look at the last 20 years as it relates to reported food borne illnesses and respective severity of same:

            1996 — E.coli 0157:H7 outbreak — lettuce
            1997 — E.coli 0157:H7 outbreak — ground beef
            1998 — Listeriosis outbreak — hot dogs/cold cuts
            1999 — Salmonellosis outbreak — orange juice imported from Mexico
            2000 — E.coli 0157-H7 outbreak — meat/beef
            2002 — E.coli 0157-H7 outbreak — ground beef (ConAgra and Emmpack Foods)
            2003 — Hepatitis A outbreak (worst in history) — green onions
            2006 — E.coli 0157:H7 outbreak — green onions likely — Taco Bell
            2006 — E.coli 0157:H7 outbreak — bagged spinach
            2007 — E.coli 0157:H7 recall — ground beef recall, second largest in history
            2008 — Salmonellosis outbreak — salsa (peppers, tomatoes, cilantro)
            2009 — E.coli 0157:H7 outbreak — cookie dough
            2010 — Salmonella recall — 500 million eggs recalled
            2011 — Listeriosis outbreak — cantaloupes,
            2011 — Salmonellosis outbreak — cantaloupes, strawberries, turkey burgers,
            2012 — Salmonellosis recall — Peanut butter
            2013 — E.coli 0157-H7 outbreak — Federico’s Mexican Restaurant, AZ
            2014 — E.coli 0157:H7 outbreak — tainted ground beef
            2015 — Salmonellosis outbreak — cucumbers from Mexico
            2015 — E.coli 0157:H7 outbreak — Chipotle Mexican Grill (six states)
            2016 — Frozen food recall — CRF Frozen Foods

            Wow. I don’t see raw milk on there. How ’bout that? I wonder why Ms. M Mc-M is not on a tirade against ground beef, lettuce, hot dogs, orange juice, green onions, spinach, salsa, cookie dough, eggs, cantaloupes, peanut butter and cucumbers. The foregoing items seem to be much more on the “Most Wanted” desperado list that raw milk. But I digress.

            The point is this, thank goodness commie leftist control freaks like Ms. M Mc-M are not in control of everyone else’s food choices. If Ms. M Mc-M chooses to haunt these types of blogs spewing her unsupportable rants and raves, I guess she is free to do that. However, from what I have seen with this, I think some serious therapy needs to take place.

            After 10 year of this, someone on here really needs to consider seeing a shrink, or maybe paying a visit to a 12-step group of some sort.

            I would be curious if that someone could make it one day without getting out on one of these blogs and droning on and on with the same ol’ same ol’. You know — “one day at a time.”

            Happy trails to you, until we meet again . . .

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            Yes. We know you have problems with women. Your “so called expert witness” still believes that raw milk has the capacity to kill pathogens. Give me a break! There is a difference between reducing and killing. So non doctor like to misrepresent the truth.

            Sorry Gordon, I don’t have time to play right now. But know that the women on both sides of my family live until their 90’s. I’m only 57, so I’m not going away for a long time.

            I read a quote from Ana Navarro that I loved. It went something like this, “When they tell me to shut the f*** up, it only makes me stand the f*** up. Thank you for always making me stronger.

          • Gordon S Watson

            of course you didn’t actually read Doctor Beals’ CV, did you, Mrs McG-M? Oh, no. That’d be too much like genuine research on the topic. You’d then have to let in information contradictory of your dug-in opinions. Thus you’re the definition of a ‘bigot’ = someone who refuses to change her opinion in the face of overwhelming EVIDENCE to the contrary.

            even a stopped clock is right, twice a day. So we do agree on the proposition that = speaking up is worthwhile. In my own case, I was sentenced to 90 days in prison, for contempt of Court, in one of the raw milk cases here in BC. Mister Justice Wong agreed with the Prosecutrixie, that part of what I’d done wrong was : holding a raw information meeting, at which I criticized the provincial govt. policy on raw milk. The ordinary person can’t quite believe that happened, but it did, in New Westminster BC, in 2013 …. a textbook demonstration of the power of the Dairy Cartel, to make policy, then use color of law for enforcing their monopoly. I laugh at that display of totalitarian-ism. It tells me how desperate the Powers-that-Be, are ; to cut off nutrition from the white race. As my old man told me when I was 12 years old “It’s all there in the Protocols” Which I finally got around to ready about the year 2000. I do agree that it’s a forgery, calculated to demonize Jewry as ‘the problem’. Nevertheless = unless you’ve read it, you do not have the measure of the enemy.

          • Emma Gardner

            Regarding Dr. Beals’ CV, I have a copy as it was submitted for the court record.

            He has had an impressive and respectable career in pathology and medicine, and has published an amazing body of peer-reviewed research in the fields of anatomy, oncology, microscopy, pathology, chemotherapy, electron microscopy. But according to his CV, he has no professional background in either epidemiology or microbiology – the two most relevant areas to the raw milk safety debate. His training is not in this area.

            And, the only publications that I see listed on his CV concerning raw milk are in non-scientific publications such as in “Wise Traditions” and at government hearings.

          • Emma Gardner

            No, Mary, from what I’ve read, Dr. Beals does not claim that raw milk can kill pathogens, just inhibit them. An excerpt from an expert witness testimony statement he gave in 2012:

            “In raw milk, there are large numbers of beneficial lactic-acid producing bacteria capable of fermenting lactose. The resulting acidity in turn prevents or slows the growth and multiplication of many of the pathogen groups. During pasteurization, however, these lactic acid bacteria are mostly destroyed. Because of this, in addition to numerous other changes caused by the pasteurization process, pasteurized milk tends to be a more hospitable environment for micro-organisms. In contrast, raw milk is a very inhospitable environment for growth and multiplication of the groups of pathogens enumerated above.”

            I’m not a microbiologist, so my opinion might be irrelevant, but I disagree with Dr. Beals. He implies that that raw milk is beneficial BECAUSE it contains lactose-fermenters, which produce lactase, and thus enable humans to digest milk products. But:

            (1) E.Coli itself is a lactose fermenter.

            (2) If raw milk is more nutritious than pasteurized, then wouldn’t this hold for many bacteria as well, and thus how can one say that pasteurized is a more hospitable environment? Yes, the recent study of ultra-pasteurized indicates that listeria flourishes at higher temperature levels, but that’s only one bug.

            (3) I know a farmer who intentionally increases lactose fermenters (while keeping total coliform and standard plate counts down) on the belief that in order for adults to digest dairy products there must be a “fresh dose” of these bacteria in every serving. I found that after 3 or so days, the milk starts tasting “off.” One of my children says that it tastes “dead.” Lactose fermenters at work.

            So I personally don’t believe that the “goodness” of raw milk is in the bacteria. If you want bacteria in your milk, then there are any number of good yogurt or kefir cultures you can add. I think that the benefit of raw milk is that the cell structure has been undamaged by pasteurization and homogenization, plus containing nutrients such as lactoferrin, CLAs, Omega-3 fatty acids, bio-digestible calcium, etc. that I can’t get from grocery store milk where I live. Do I want “bits of blasted bug bodies” (to use Mark’s phrase) in my milk – the waste products of pasteurization – proteins which can pass through the gut wall? No thanks.

            I think that our community should move away from promoting “bacteria” as the reason why “graw milk is good” and start looking for other explanations, such as that grass-fed raw milk milk is easier to digest because it is undamaged and contains nutrients that are not in factory-farmed milk.

          • Emma Gardner

            Correction: Final paragraph was meant to say “GRASS-FED raw milk” – I didn’t notice until after posting that some letters had accidentally been deleted in a cut-and-paste.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    Sometimes abstaining from voting, if one believes in a higher moral authority, is not only morally acceptable, but morally justified as well.

    Considering her questionable political tactics, the Clinton foundation’s dubious reputation, and her attempt to defend and rationalize the status quo in Washington… Hillary Clinton backed herself into a corner and she only has herself to blame.
    Many of the two million or more people that did not vote and would have normally supported the Democrats, may very well have voted for Bernie Sanders had he been the Democratic candidate chosen to run against Trump. It is also probable that many Republicans including those who did and did not vote would have also voted for Bernie merely for the sake of voting against Trump.

    The fact of the matter is, the American people are fed up with establishment politicians that endorse top down government and fail to defend the constitution. It is for this reason and this reason alone that Trump made it beyond the primaries. The fact that he was elected president of the United States despite his past skullduggery reinforces the electorates justified intent dislike with establishment politicians.

    Suggesting as Mark did that 47% of the American people are “sociopaths” and” just simple fools in the truest sense” is a narrow-minded lament of a spoiled kid when events don’t happen to go his way.

  • Gary Ogden

    David: This is precisely why I left the foundation. No different than virtually all the print, broadcast, and on line media: “a vehicle for dispensing propaganda and lies.” No trust in Sally whatsoever. As for the election, we had no choice. Hillary is simply incompetent; nearly every foreign policy adventure she was involved in turned out to be a disastrous blunder (particularly Libya). Both Clintons are shamelessly corrupt, their foundation merely an influence-peddling get-rich-quick scheme. Trump is a dangerous demagogue, a chameleon, as Mark says. Some of us voted for Trump thinking he really would clean out the filth at the CDC. I think he’s going to disappoint us, having named Indiana’s vaccinator-in-chief as the head of operations. We’re in for a rough patch, folks. We could always go to one of those daycare centers that used to be called college campuses and distract ourselves with play-doh.

    • Pete

      Give him time. He did acknowledge the vaccine autism connection very early on in the primary. I don’t expect a 180 at the FDA/CDC, but neither do I suspect business as usual. There is a reason every single establishment power was vehemently opposed to him.

      • Gary Ogden

        Pete: I still have hope. He did meet with a health freedom group, including Dr. Wakefield, on August 12th. He knows how dangerous vaccines are, but then so do Hillary and Obama. However, unlike them, he is not owned by the plutocracy. If only Dr. Thompson were subpoenaed and testified before Congress and in the Hazlehurst trial, there would be a sea change, although the media would ignore it. Or would they? Many scientists and physicians know these dangers, particularly with aluminum adjuvants, but mercury as well (82% of the flu vaccines manufactured for this year contain thimerosal); will the media now allow the larger public to hear their voices? At what point will the tide turn? The pushback from raw milk drinkers has made a big difference. Will the media stop showing contempt for parents who know damn well their child was injured by vaccines?

  • D. Smith D. Smith

    Gordon, it was the Beatles who sang those words, not Elton John.

    And for God’s sake, Trump isn’t even officially in office yet – – and already people are deciding what he is or isn’t going to do? Now I know why I rarely come to this site anymore.

    • Gordon Watson

      the way I remember it, Elton John sang “get back Honky Cat,back to where you once belonged … I quit those days and my redneck ways, ooh ooh ooh, better get back to the woods …” > I could be wrong on that. = as I said on the witness stand last week “A few things are vivid in my memory, but at age 67 the rest of it is all just a blur”. What terrifies the Lib-tards, is ; all the angry white males got in their pick-up trucks and showed up to vote”. Ain’t it amusing how Broom-Hillary’s crowd crow about how they corralled every single ethnic group, yet when white people vote en mass for our own interests … oh, “dat be racisssss!”

      • D. Smith D. Smith

        @ Gordon: You could very well be right about the song. I ain’t a fan of Elton John, and I guess I didn’t really pay much attention to the words in his songs. I seriously thought you were referring to the song called “Get Back” by the Beatles. I remember having it on a 45 (remember those spinning hunks of plastic!) but I don’t recall what was on the other side. Back then we got two songs for the price of one. 🙂

        All I see happening in the aftermath of the election is hillbillary’s “fan club” racism. They carry signs which say “Love trumps hate” and then they are rioting and causing hate and destruction and injury. Guess they don’t really understand Love. Now the college kids need crayons and markers and pet dogs to “calm” them down? Give those kids to me and I’ll find a farm where we can put them to work and they’ll learn how to behave (and earn an honest dollar) in a hurry. What a bunch of coddled, befuddled cry babies. They aren’t even old enough to vote in some cases, but they’re out there protesting and rioting and they don’t even know why. They just like the money they’re getting from Soros et al for causing chaos in the wake of the Queen (and her King) of Chaos. Thanking my lucky stars she’s now distanced from power and the White House.

    • Gary Ogden

      D. Smith: Please continue to comment here. You always have something intelligent to say. My cynicism is at an all-time high, and I have no idea what Trump will do, but creeping medical fascism is gradually eroding our rights and our health (Healthy People 2020, SB 277, the CDC’s recent rule change, etc.), and Hillary would have greased the skids, with cradle-to-grave mandatory vaccination in the works. This is pharma’s dream, their growth industry. This is why I voted for Trump, as odious as much what he has said is to decent folk who treat others with due respect. Interestingly, lots of other Obama voters voted for Trump. The media simply couldn’t see what was staring them in the face. Nothing we can do about it now, except vote him out in four years if he screws things up too much.

      • D. Smith D. Smith

        @ Gary Ogden: Well thanks, Gary. I usually don’t talk religion or politics but in this case it was just too easy. I, too, am hoping for the best with healthcare, as well as several other hot topics of concern to the American people. Trump seems to be carefully weighing his options of who to surround himself with and one can only hope he will do the right things. We pretty much know what we would have gotten with CLinton and to me that was just unacceptable. We need change, not more of what we’ve had since the early 1990’s. Change, I say! We now have hope that changes will and can be possible, and we all need to start looking at things that way and be hopeful.

        The MSM was totally in the can for hillary and even they are starting to admit it in small ways. That’s one reason they didn’t see what was staring them in the face – because they didn’t want to and essentially they weren’t being “allowed” to see or report things in a true light. A sad twist in the “freedoms” assured to the 5th Estate.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    This speech presented by John F Kennedy in 1961 is equally relevant if not more so to today.
    https://www.jfklibrary.org/Research/Research-Aids/JFK-Speeches/American-Newspaper-Publishers-Association_19610427.aspx

    The following paragraph from the above link in particular is especially relevant and appears to have basically entered one ear and gone out the other as far as politicians and bureaucrats are concerned.

    “The very word “secrecy” is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it is in my control. And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know.”

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    Blessed Cheese Maker,

    Who is Mary Martin?

    She is a loving mom.

    Let me tell you who she is. She is a kind loving mom that cares about her child and all children. She was the one who sent shock waves through my soul and caused me to personally search deeply about my dedication to raw milk. It was most probably my raw milk that ten years ago ( in the middle of a huge national Spinach recall and outbreak ) made her child sick. I could not wrap my brain arround this because no pathogens were found in our raw milk that matched her child. . All of my tests and the state tests were negative….but her kid was ill and had consumed my raw milk.

    What did I do….after much soul searching and adjustment of my opinions….I founded RAWMI along with some other really good people. Since 2010, the illnesses associated with raw milk across the USA have declined massively. They have plummeted. A huge study of this CDC trend line will be published soon. Now the expectations for raw milk producers has changed. Testing is now expected and standards are also applied and compared. Things are far better than 10 years ago.

    She is the force that propelled raw milk progress and now kids are safer & healthier and raw milk is better than ever and improving everyday. . In a very strange and deeply loving way….Mary is a partner in progress and aside from some issues with Marler, I respect and admire her. In fact on a few occasions I have called her when I was really pondering my soul and sought her counsel and she was there for me. She is also a passionate mom and I get her fury over something that made her child sick and why she is driven to challenge those in the raw milk community that fail to take milk safety seriously. I agree with her on this. Raw milk can be very low risk, nutritiously healing and safe….or it can be the opposite. However,…raw milk is always great for the immune system, allergies, excema,asthma and Crones etc.That is why organizations like the RAWMI community are so important. This is a risk verses benefit calculation. Asthma kills about 15 kids per day in the USA. Raw milk heals it. You do the math.

    As time passes….Test & Hold technologies get cheaper, faster, more accessible and more accurate.

    Mary helped me by being the mommy force and voice that compelled change in me. I listened and that helped me to be constructive with this mommy force passion and energy. I appreciate Mary inspite all the background noise and blather. Now children across America ( and now the world ) are able to consume much safer, far better raw milk. The EU has several pending RAWMI applicants including the Azores.

    Now…as far as Trump is concerned….I have no idea what he has up his sleeve. No one does….not even him. He is an empty camelion. No ethics. No morals….No ideas….No policies, and No foundation on which to find or create policy, ethics, morals or ideas.

    As far as the intellect of who voted for him….he had the “undereducated vote”. So don’t claim brilliance for making this choice….this is an American debacle with totally unknown consequences.

    I never said that 47% of Americans are sociopaths. I said “47% of Americans are simpletons and will follow and believe a sociopath”. Please read my words….words matter. There appears to be a “literal verses figurative” discussion about how voters minds function. In my mind….things said and things stated really matter and reflect the speakers intent. I guess in 47% of some Americans…that does not apply. They let their emotions and hatred overwhelm their listening and thinking centers and wish they heard what they wanted to hear. Trump was able to stoke 47% of the people into an irrational frenzy.

    How can anyone claim brilliance when Trump did the things he did and said the things he said….and still get out the vote? That’s not brilliance my dear friends. That’s the opposite of brilliance. That’s dullness.

    In the end…..this is what matters. Each of us must rise above this embarrassing choice and persist as the good DNA that makes up the fibre of America….we voted him in….we can also vote him out.

    Lastly and my therapy will be done….how in any stretch of the anyones wildest imagination did Obama damage America????????

    When he was first in office 8 years ago, here is the list: Homes had lost 50% of their value or more in some places, the economy had collapsed, gas cost $4 per gallon ( or more ) , unemployment was rampant, jobs were being lost at high rates, interest rates where higher, banks had collapsed, soldiers were dying in a war that we should have never entered.

    After 8 years of Obama….soldiers are not dying everyday, ( rarely and we are not officially in a war ) interest rates are at there lowest ever, unemployment is lowest in 40 years, home values are back up to high levels, new homes are being built, we have International global climate change treaties in force, banks are lending at all time low rates of interest, more Americans and children are covered by some kind of health care and pre- existing conditions are now covered.

    If you can not see this…then God help you and your intellect.

    How did Obama hurt Anerica???? He saved America!!!! He and Michele also brought back morals and ethics to the Whitehouse and respect from the world. Obama will go down in history as the most loved and respected president of all time. Those of you that tear him down….shame on you. You have no basis. You should drop to your knees and thank God we had him for these last 8 years and ask forgiveness for your racism and lack of acknowledgment of his damn hard work inspite of “Birthers and other negative distractions” He saved us and recovered us from the Bush republican disaster.

    Thank you so much Michele and President Obama. I am deeply grateful for your service to our country.

    • Bless\'ed are the cheese makers

      Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, based on the case I laid out at 8:36 am (see above), and in response to Mr. McAfee’s 11:37 am rebuttal filled with nothing but emotional rants and no facts whatsoever to support his position, I hereby rest my case.

      • Mary McGonigle-Martin

        Blessed are the cheese makers…..sorry you don’t get it.

        • Blesse\'d are the cheese makers

          No, honey, I get it. I know that you never proved up via a fact finder (i.e., judge or jury) that any raw milk was the cause of any injury. I know that you settled your claims against a producer we all know prior to any trial. I know that in that settlement agreement, it states something to this effect:

          “The parties agree that by entering into this Release and Settlement Agreement, the Defendant admits no wrongdoing. The parties further understand and agree that this Release and Settlement Agreement is being entered into in an effort to resolve a dispute between the parties and avoid any further dispute, discussion or action concerning the matters related thereto.”

          Do I need sock puppets to explain this?

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            Well smarty pants, did you know that two families sued? There were 2 kids that developed HUS and both consumed the same brand of raw milk on the same day and were diagnosed with HUS on the same day. The other child has permanent kidney damage. That means most likely in her lifetime she will need a kidney transplant.

          • blesse\'d are the cheese makers

            If cause-in-fact (but for causation) had been proven in this other episode you cite, it still does not mean that cause-in-fact was a given in your case. The facts you cite are circumstantial in nature only — apparently enough to get an insurer to the table to pay money and for you to accept the settlement, but not enough to get a jury finding on causation. The injuries are sad and unfortunate, but that does not mean that raw milk was necessarily the cause. Your campaign against raw milk is misguided and is a vendetta. Maybe you’ve convinced yourself that it was indeed the raw milk, but that does not make it so.

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            Yes. You need to believe everything you have written.

          • Bless\'ed are the cheese makers

            Oh, please . . . the cdc? That settles it, right? Give me a break . . .

          • Bless\'ed are the cheese makers

            As you so succinctly put it above, blah, blah, blah . . .

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            It is the final report on the outbreak. You are the type that will deny all raw milk outbreaks. No point in interacting with you.

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      Thank you Mark for coming to my defense. No doubt we have come a long way in the last decade. David you have to print this comment and hang it on your wall. Miracles do happen. LOL. The majority of people who post on your blog today can’t really appreciate what this means. Ken Conrad does.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      Thanks for the correction Mark, I’ll rephrase that sentence, “Suggesting that 47% of the American people are mentally challenged simpletons and” just simple fools in the truest sense” is a narrow-minded lament of a spoiled kid when events don’t happen to go his way.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      Mark
      You state, “How did Obama hurt America???? He saved America!!!! He and Michele also brought back morals and ethics to the Whitehouse and respect from the world”.

      What ever happened to Obama’s promise to label GMO food???

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqaaB6NE1TI

      Thanks to the Obama administration freedom in America has eroded at a record pace. Indeed, Obama just put the icing on the cake by signing an executive order on Nov.4/2016, four days before the presidential election advancing the Global Health Security Agenda (GHSA).

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/obama-quietly-signs-executive-order-to-advance-global-vaccination-agenda/5556581

      This latest action by your outgoing president and his administration coincides with public health officials, in the last several months, starting to invoke rulemaking authority to bypass the democratic process altogether.

      “Rulemaking authority is given by Congress to federal legislators, and given by state legislators to the people who operate government and government employees.”

      ‘On August 15, 2016, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published a Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) in the Federal Register to amend the Public Health Service Act, which governs public health law.”

      In essence the powers that be in your country want to vaccinate every man, woman and child regardless of the known risks and with a condescending disregard for personal beliefs.

    • Pete

      “Now…as far as Trump is concerned….I have no idea what he has up his sleeve. No one does….not even him. He is an empty camelion. No ethics. No morals….No ideas….No policies, and No foundation on which to find or create policy, ethics, morals or ideas. ”

      And this is why Trump will keep winning; his opponents couldn’t be more deluded. They don’t understand Trump, they don’t even understand themselves or why they were trounced this election.

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    http://agview.net/articles/features/2016-08-16-trump-campaign-announces-agricultural-advisory-committee

    Here is the future of American Agricultural policy as seen through the names of his advisors. This is the biggest of the HUGE Ag boys…all circled around Trump.

    As far as change is concerned….No change in nutritional policy that is for sure. No support for organics….that is for sure. This is MEGA Egg and Bovine CAFO and GMO, Soybean BIOTECH in its highest form.

    Read the names and do the google search on each.

    • D. Smith D. Smith

      @ Mark: That article is from August. How is it possible that he was announcing final committee member names back then? Do you honestly think Hillary would have made “smarter” choices for the egg, CAFO, GMO and BIOTECH stuff?

      Are you taking drugs these days? Now you’re a big fan of Mary’s?

      Wheeee!!

    • Emma Gardner

      Sounds like someone needs to tweet to Trump and offer to be his agriculture advisor on the issue of nutrient dense and organic foods. Seems like Twitter is his preferred medium. Any volunteers here?

    • Sue Diederich

      Did ya notice, though, what was actually said?? Against GMO’s… Against hormones and anti-biotics as feed choices. Of course in other areas, against forced vaccination and against the vaccination schedule (not necessarily the act itself).

      Trump – being a businessman and not a career politician – said what he needed to say to get the job done… and guess what… It worked.

      So far as the so-called “progressive” movement: if rioting and protesting in the streets, crying and whining are progressive, I’m about the most backward gal you’ll ever meet. Seems to me that the supporters of the party that founded the KKK are behaving like spoiled 3-year-olds and need a good spanking.

      If NOTHING else – the two “top candidates” (neither of whom would have been in the race in a THINKING country) did one thing for this country already…. They managed to completely piss off the entire nation. RECORD numbers of people actually got off their fat butts, put down their remotes and headed to the polls. Even Reagan or Kennedy couldn’t have accomplished that. And didn’t.

      Insofar as people refuse to do their own research and learn their history, they are indeed doomed to repeat it.

      The judge and jury are ready with the rope, and the man doesn’t take the oath for 2 more months.

      On the Fresh milk thing – I am grateful for advances in testing, as well as responsibility, however I have been consuming the product and products made from it since the early 90’s, as have my father, daughter and two grand-daughters. Must be in the incredibly lucky super-minority – but have never had a problem. I’ve not had one complaint from anyone I suggested the practice to, either. I must live in a bubble.

      Well, ok… I had one – but that was the gestapo tactics that closed down Family Farms Coop for a while, and caused a major distribution problem here in Illinois. Had nothing to do with the milk itself. Fortunately, the laws have changed somewhat, and although prices are nearly double what they were then, access is much more easily enjoyed, and from far more local sources!!!!

      And there’s no coop fee – a good thing, as once herd-shares/cow-shares started being actually tested in court, they have lost every action.

      However, I was having problems – big problems – when Dean’s had the salmonella outbreak in the 80’s, including a nice long hospital stay. And in the beds next to me were more than 50 other students I went to college with. And that was settled with conclusive, positive test results. Those results came from three separate labs, too – not just one. Several states were hit. What happened? Deans re-sanitized their equipment, and never ceased production.

      The problem with fresh milk being the “cause” when all testing proves negative is iffy at best. But, unsubstantiated “evidence” is often the ONLY evidence needed to convict a product that has been in continual use since the domestication of cattle some several thousand years ago (and previous to that goats). I think if it were all that bad, the human race would have died out by now lol.

      I don’t know enough (or remember enough) about this situation to make any judgements other than to say that I do appreciate both of you standing behind your convictions. Not enough of us do that these days.

      I am going to say though – if its brown it ain’t a polar bear and if its white it ain’t a grizzly.

  • jim

    This kind of crap needs to stop… I, my customers, anyone reading books, links, web pages by Fallon use them as almost bible verses to truth about raw nutrient dense foods. She puts all of that in jeopardy when this kind of stuff comes up.

    • I used to think of Sally as my nutrition guru. There was a saying in my WAPF chapter, “WWSS?” What Would Sally Say?” From personal experience over the past decade of sending her perhaps 20 or so emails, she has never taken longer that 24 hours to reply to me, a “nobody”, and usually I hear back from her within a few hours. It will be sad indeed if a public correction is not made, both online and in the next Wise Traditions journal.

      • David Gumpert David Gumpert

        Sally has been a wonderfully positive influence in many families’ food lives. Unfortunately, she has a rigid ideological side that translates into personal animosity, which has gotten WAPF into big trouble the last couple years. I’d appreciate some acknowledgment of the error, but I am not holding my breath expecting anything.

  • As to the issues with Sally’s failure to respond… I think a bit more time would be prudent before jumping to a conclusion. Just MHO.

    As for all the speculations, assumptions, conclusions, extrapolations, accusations, and just plain hate speak showing up about Donald Trump, I say this. A simple statistical assessment shows that the media did a great job downplaying HRC’s flaws and antics while hyper-focusing on Trump’s issues. Over time their objectivity was utterly absent. They spoke of their conclusions, extrapolations, unproven accusations and assumptions as facts. I think that they, like many on this blog, actually BELIEVE they are facts.

    I understand why Trump riled up and frightened people as he did… he riled and frightened me, too. His indiscretions were obvious and serious. His temperament is far from what we are used to seeing in a grown man. Still, I wasn’t “terrified” and I did not have a moment when I felt it was fair to call him the next “Hitler” (a notion that requires a great deal of massaging of his behaviors and words and way too much stretching the facts for me to spend time defending against). I can just say that I feel that even when considering his gnawing flaws, I believe he took office for the reasons he said he did and that he will do his best to keep his promise to do his best to fix the things in this country he and his supporters believe to be broken. Only time will tell who is right among us, so I am going to stop listing to the chronic fortune telling and see what happens next.

    I also won’t bother going into the things about HRC that frighten and rile me. Her followers are to committed to their myth that she’s the victim of some right-wing conspiracy to have a reasonable conversation. More importantly, it seems that their “ends justify the means” is well ingrained. It is interesting, though, that the “ends justify the means” position that seems to only be available democrats/liberals as those who use the same logic with Trump are called deplorables.

    But about all this despair on the left, as well as Mr. Gumpert’s, I have this to say. It may be hard to comprehend, that there are people, some estimates say about half of our population, who see “abortion rights” and permission to commit mass murder. Who see decisions made for HRC being based on a different standard than then rest of the population as representing a broken, corrupt system. Some see a person who cannot remember critical incidents and actions from less than four years ago 38 times during a deposition but can recite lengthy rebuttals during a debate, as being either dishonest or unfit for office. Some feel furious that Obamacare provided needed insurance for millions while making access to affordable health care impossible for millions of others. Some feel that the emphasis on the rights of certain groups of minorities often ignored the rights of the majority. Some feel offended to be called “white racists” and “facisits” while organizations like BLM spew vile hatred and even at times promote violence and mistreatment of others just because they are whites. Some college students are fed up with having protests that infringe on their ability to get to class and intentionally make them feel unsafe (another infamous execution of the “ends justify the means” liberal mantra). Many wonder why assuming that black Americans are too stupid to find their local DMV and don’t have identification, or assuming that because a person questions something President Obama did makes them racist, when others question other presidents without accusation. Some wonder how to make sense of a popluation that decries Donald Trump completely out of line for stating the system is rigged but then engage in violent language, threats, and actions when they system lets them down. Some wonder why there they would be charged with hate crimes for saying “[email protected] Black America” but they have to watch for days as disillusioned constituents use “F*#k White America” as the theme of their protests which are often violent, intentionally disruptive, destructive and threatening protests. And many, many, many people wonder why they are assigned every negative attribute of candidate Trump, but those who support HRC aren’t labeled as shamelessly corrupt, dishonest, opportunistic, duplicitous, and questionably biased against anyone who doesn’t share their beliefs.

    Said another way, I am tired of liberals whining about how things did not go their way, as if THEIR WAY is somehow inherently right. I am tired of liberals blaming everyone else while not looking in the mirror at how their “inclusive” approaches are failing them. I am tired of liberals not being able to comprehend how the Obama years may have felt the same way to those who voted for his alternative as the trump victory feels to them. I am tired of their inability or unwillingness to see their own intolerance and lack of compassion for the other half of the country that views the world differently than they do, yet constantly harp on the “other side” for the same behaviors. Most of all, I am utterly exhausted by their double standards, false narratives, and unwillingness to pursue common ground.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Julie, I think the system was only considered “rigged” if Trump lost. Once he won, it stopped being rigged. But “rigged” was used to suggest voter fraud, which is a false issue. Multiple studies have found it’s not commonplace, and multiple federal courts have overturned restrictive state laws to require extensive IDs and such as being racist.

      While you don’t say it, I sense a lot of your upset with liberals has to do with the growing tide of “political correctness.” I actually thought that was one of Trump’s most powerful themes, to call out and counter the overreach of political correctness.

      Aside from that, thanks for providing a clear and passionate articulation of the anti-Clinton/anti-liberal viewpoint.

      • David, I have heard every day since the election that the system was rigged because Trump won the election without winning the popular vote. As you likely know, there is even a Change.org petition out trying to change the outcome of the election. So my point was not so much about the nuanced definition of “rigged” as the interpretation by tens of thousands that a Trump victory was illegitimate. My second point was that if HRC won and Trump supporters did the same thing, they would be plastered all over the media as being the biggest sore losers ever (not to mention the most violent). Their pain would not be discussed by news “reporters” with quivering lips and huge amounts of compassion for their plight. It would be a day of celebration that the evil “Hitler followers” failed to overtake our great country.

        I didn’t agree with Trump’s position of the system being rigged, although to a case that suggest that the media did not work against him, both overtly and covertly, is cannot be made when honestly looking at the facts.

        I live in a world of mostly liberal friends and family. As it happens, I don’t fit clearly into any box. Typically I don’t support the liberal or conservative agendas, however I do struggle with what has been the liberal way of thinking in recent years. Still, I support many traditional “liberal” agendas. I invest my hard-earned money in more causes of compassion, many being liberal causes, than any ten of my liberal friends combined. What upsets me is that, in spite of those realities, I’d be classified a hate-filled, racist, fear monger. And today, if I were to tell certain people I voted for Trump, in many major cities, my PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL AND FINANCIAL well-being would be at risk. Many would even believe that I support a Hitler agenda. Do you know how outrageous that is?

        During the election, I asked hundreds of HRC supporters why they supported her. Not as in “how could you?”, but as in “I’d like to learn how you see things”. Not once did a single HRC supporter EVER pursue what I saw as positive about candidate Trump. They were not interested in learning about me, they felt the already knew my story and anything favorable I felt about Trump was a lie. But, if they had been interested , they might have learned a whole bunch they didn’t know because I could tell from their answers that they were not well informed about either candidate. And, oddly, this is true for my encounters with liberals in general. Most of the time, though not always, they have little interest in why I believe what I believe. And when I offer different perspectives, they often find my points of view “inconceivable”.

        Now I am not saying my experience represents anyone else. I am simply saying that my experience led to the comments I made in my previous posts. I am tired of the liberal world acting like the most open, respectful, inclusive, tolerant people on the face of the planet when my experience has been anything but. Too many have rejected the purity of the “live and let live” notion. They are not interested in opportunities for reasonable discussion or finding common ground. Instead, they cry”F#*k White America and it’s privilege”.

        So why do I take time out of my busy day to write these thoughts? It’s because I am tired of being falsely accused and not speaking up. I am fed up with the way things have been playing out for some time now, suggesting that anyone who does not buy into the ENTIRE liberal agenda is, well, to use HRC’s great summary term, deplorable. For eight years I allowed the majority of my friends to have a love affair with Obama even though his policies caused great harm to my family. Yet, today, those same people are posting on FB that anyone who voted for Trump should “unfriend” them. That’s BS.

        .

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    None of us should blindly follow gurus or drink any cool aide!!….not the Trump and not Sally either. Each of us must critically measure what we hear and follow our own assessments based on independent research and our own true North’s. I do not agree with much of the newest WAP mantra including the cod liver oil thing. But…they have been a great force of good in the past and they deserve tons of credit for that progress and good.

    Organizations get into trouble when its members stop thinking critically and start praying blindly to some elevated leadership. Staying humble and staying open minded and staying “of and for the people” is essential and important. Tearing down WAP or Sally does not help anything. Going beyond WAP and building on its good work is important.

    My advice to WAP is to have a very strong board of good directors with a good clearly stated mission….and let them lead the future of WAP and stop advocating for individual brands of any product. A weak board will hurt a non profit.

  • Sue Diederich

    I’m sorry this happened to you. This is NOTHING new for Sally though. Not really.

    In the interest of scholarship and fairness which was not afforded to you, those articles in Wise Traditions include links/information in bibliographies which is where the gold is, much as in the case of mentor Dr. Joe Mercola’s work. Once he became a commercial guru his articles are largely entertainment, but the links to documentation are still excellent sources of information.

    Certainly, any of us with any history of working directly with Sally and WAPF are aware of the issue you’ve now experienced personally. However, to disregard the actual research and the availability of the actual published studies would be a loss of much time and effort.

    OpEds and critiques aside…

    There have been several stars people have hitched their horses to against recommendation of those in the trenches who had the original experiences of this nature. WAPF, FARFA and Liberty Ark ring bells… But it often takes a lot more than one person’s experience to change the world.

    This research was done. Both scholastically as well as empirically.

    If people are interested, you can add Organic Consumers, Cornucopia, and Locovore to the list – and perhaps even Local Harvest (though I still have some pages there that I haven’t deleted but rarely deal with).

    That said, I ended my membership in both of her orgs more than 8 years ago, and included a letter as to why. I also alerted the community. I read WT at the library nowadays – as I cannot justify (even for the conservation of energy (MINE!!) to support WAPF or FTCLDF. I have also recommended that people do the research and follow the money which is very often too frightening for most – almost as a mantra for more than 10 years.

    BTW – wouldn’t be her husband (who also “indirectly” works for such companies as Monsanto) who is her PR firm of choice these days, would it???

    In the case of Big Ag AND Big Pharm – they have to disown their former execs so that when they are seated as heads of USDA, FDA, CDC, NIH and so on, it looks to the peons in the stands as if they have parted ways. Nothing but a revolving door. That research has been done as well.

    On a lighter note – you could offer to sue her if she uses the pic of you –

    But in the meantime, those who still haven’t left her organizations should once again consider doing so, but be sure to drop her a note as to why and be double sure to ask for a refund (which, of course, will not be forthcoming).

    As for me and my house – WE love you, David!!

    GrannySue

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    As some of us observed and experienced at the Anahiem WAP conference last year….that was the clear and decisive moment when all became obvious.

    Here is the list:

    After huge pressure, Sally disclosed that fermented cod liver oil could be dangerous if not taken in a special way. She presented test data from multiple labs that were inconclusive about all the things WAP had claimed as fact about cod liver oil. Her conclusion at the end of her presentation showed that grass fed eggs and avacodos were better than cod liver oil. ( as best I can recall )

    Amos violated hotel rules by openly selling his products. He violated state of CA laws by selling raw dairy products at WAP conference. He violated FDA regs by bringing them into the state. Amos Millers Organic ( but not really organic and not really from his farm but rather from 9 farms, with no labels) were seized under embargo by county health officials and then later fed ( by breaking embargo seals) to the conference members. WAP failed to control this activity and in fact supported it by bad advice through FTCLDF.

    Mr. Morels personal misconduct was disclosed as a major violation of appropriate conduct ( by a long list of women ) and the board and its leadership did not act to remove Mr. Morel from his key role at WAP. This misconduct had been ongoing for more than 6-8 years but yet leadership had failed to remove him from a position of power even though they knew all about it. This continued defecto endorsement of Mr. Morel was one of the reasons he was emboldened to continue to violate women’s personal space and their bodies.

    Sally and I are friends and I respect her work….but I believe that her work is done. I have no regard for Mr. Morel and believe he us toxic to Sally and the good of the organization as a whole. She needs to retire and support a new generation of nutritional experts and continued research. She can not lead if she can not allow others to take the work she has started and take it further. This is about team building….not Personal Tower building. Good leaders are guardians of ethics, grounded beliefs, and great foundations of tradition. When the very essence of ethics and the foundations of good are questioned or fractured….the legacy is in serious question. Embrace the board and make sure the board is good. All will be well. But….If the board is weak or fears you…then there is no board and your legacy will fade away as you yourself will fade away. I was asked to say these things publically one year ago….but I restrained myself and gave myself a year to take a deep breath because i demanded of myself to be constructive and not tear anything down. Now is the time to give constructive feedback the space to be heard. These elements ( and perhaps others ) are exactly why many good people including David,Dr. Daniels, Dr. Ron Schmidt all left WAP to form a more inclusive group and carry on the good work.

    I believe in loving all and serving all and being as constructive as possible at all times. The truth sometimes hurts….but it always sets you free. I am still a member at WAP and FTCLDF. I will continue to care and share to hopefully improve things as best I can. But….it is essential that progress be made.

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      David, what is going on with new organization that has been formed?

    • I have wondered, Mark, whether you remain a WAPF member. After Kaayla’s report came out and I learned more about the inner workings of the Foundation, I did not renew my membership. In fact, this weekend as the conference is being held in Birmingham, I keep thinking how odd I am not there. But I can no longer support the Foundation, knowing what I know now about Sally’s leadership. Another prominent figure now absent from WAPF is my favorite fisherman, Randy Hartnell, of Vital Choice Seafood. He left (from what I understand) because the WAPF did not think it important that FCLO contained pollack liver oil, and not cod liver oil, as these fish are from the same species. Randy knows the difference and could not abide by the Foundation’s stand on this issue, that pollack = cod, so he has not returned as a conference sponsor. As a consumer, I regard this as misbranding. I feel defrauded. Just another reason I will not renew my membership until things change at WAPF. I am watching and waiting for Sally to make the correction about who, exactly, was sitting next to to her at the Harvard raw milk debate.

    • Bill

      Mark – Your assessment of Sally’s talk was that “fermented cod liver oil could be dangerous if not taken in a special way”. I wonder if you would agree with Sally if she said “swill milk could be dangerous if not taken in a special way” and that grass fed eggs and avocados were better than raw milk. FCLO is the swill milk of the cod liver oil industry.

    • Gary Ogden

      Mark: Thank you.

  • Margaret

    I’ve been a member of WAPF since 2003 and active in my local chapter, but after the FLCO debacle, I no longer trust anything Sally says. I don’t know what to believe now from what WAPF teaches. It also disturbs me that WAPF does not acknowledge the possibility of raw milk causing illness. I’ve had numerous parasitic illnesses the past 10 years and wonder about whether I could have gotten the parasites from raw milk. Since I rarely travel or eat out, it’s a mystery how I contracted the parasites.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      If a person has recurrent parasitic episodes/infections then that person should do an audit of their diet…people are prone to acquiring parasites and indeed parasites thrive in individuals if excessive sugar and carbohydrates are consumed. The immune system is a potential hosts best line of defense against ubiquitous parasites that will invariably invade the body; so determining the status of ones immune system is of utmost importance. Immune disrupting chemicals and drugs such as pesticides, herbicides, chemotherapeutics, antibiotics, and vaccines should be considered since they all play a role in disabling the immune system.

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    Lynn,

    I believe in forgiveness and serving all. I am still a member….but have withdrawn my energies to further devote time to RAWMI and other teaching and outreach endeavors.

    • Steve Tallent

      When I asked pointed questions to WAPF about FCLO, they went unanswered. When I pointed out some inconsistencies with their statements of what they required for test results to be published by them, and their published FCLO test results, I was met with silence – but the test result PDF was edited to correct the problems I pointed out. Perhaps it is a bit early, especially with the conference going on. Perhaps it was an honest mistake. But it would really surprise me if there was a correction in the next edition of Wise Traditions.

  • David Gumpert David Gumpert

    I received the following email this evening from Kathy Kramer, chief administrator at the Weston A. Price Foundation:

    “Sally’s error in citing Mark McAfee rather than you was unintentional. We did not receive an email from you but were told this was a concern to you. We apologize for any distress this has caused you. We will make the correction to the article online as soon as we return to the office.”

    I’ll refrain from analyzing this too closely (for example, who the “we” is that didn’t receive an email, since I sent it to three separate parties; and the refusal to acknowledge reading about it on this blog). I accept the apology and the commitment to a correction, and have included an update in the body of my original blog post.

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    Tone at FOX News is changing….

    The tone at FOX News is changing, the voices are now saying that Trump has changed his positions and now he is going in a different direction. he just said what he needed to say to excite his base…now no one knows what he is going to do or say.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Maybe it’s good news that he is staying true to form, like with Trump University, NJ casinos, dealings with vendors…I think it’s called bait-and-switch.

      • Gordon Watson

        when the derivatives house of cards goes to smithereens – as it assuredly will within the next 2 presidential cycles – a guy who’s been through a few bankruptcies himself, will be far more acceptable speaking from the Oval Office to bewildered tax serfs, than that other one. Gossip now is, that The Biggest Loser failed because she wouldn’t take her husband’s advice = “it’s the economy, stupid”… which empowered him into 2 terms.
        The Republic will fare better with an agile 70 -year-old business man at its helm, than that crypto commie who personified everything hated by White Christian America
        Even if she sits in a federal penitentiary where she belongs … until they drive a stake through her heart, I’ll worry that Hillary Clinton will come back to haunt us.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      Mark,

      Here are a couple of articles that are worth reading.

      And for the record… If I were an American citizen I would have likely been among those several million who opted out of voting.

      The Two Donald Trumps
      by N. A. Halkides 10/22/16
      http://www.stubbornthings.org/the-two-donald-trumps/#more-17934.
      “I would not have chosen Trump as my champion. Without a consistent Conservative philosophy he has no reliable guide to policy, and yes, I would have preferred someone whose view of women was not at about the level of a fourteen-year-old’s. And yet Trump understands, however imperfectly, that the American people are plagued with a ruling class that seeks wealth and power for themselves and that has betrayed their trust… “

      “And so my questions to the Trump detractors: If your judgment is not beclouded, how can your Donald Trump be so different from ours? How is it that we, his supporters, can see quite clearly the man’s many failings, yet you can detect no trace of valor in him as he fights against the malignant evil of the Clintons and the rest of the Democratic Left? Is your view of the man as all bad really more likely to be true than ours of him as a sadly mixed lot of good and bad?”

      Inside the Progressive Mind
      By N. A. Halkides
      http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/189984/inside-every-liberal-totalitarian-screaming-get-frontpagemagcom
      “Once the Progressive is permitted to intrude however slightly into matters that are properly beyond the sphere of government, then all aspects of the individual’s life may be subjected to control. Once any degree of coercion is permitted, then no level of force is out of bounds…
      “First, if the government has an interest in regulating the individual’s behavior in the name of assuring his health, no private decision the individual makes which could affect his health is beyond its power to control… “
      “ Second, since the government is to be permitted to use force to override the individual’s will, then it may use as much force as necessary to compel his obedience.”

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    I had a fascinating conference call this week. Leaders of conventional dairies and organic dairies expressed bewilderment at what to do next with the great unknown of the Trump Whitehouse. Literally….all of the normal routes to access and grab an ear to listen or send a message are gone. The group did not know if Trump will support dairies or subject them to further torture of economic collapse from below cost of production prices as set by the federal milk pools etc.

    The question was:

    Is Trump a free market guy?
    Is Trump a controlled market guy?

    Either way….no body knows. It was my opinion and postion that the future of dairy price discovery must be a “market driven consumer driven” system. In other words….it will be supply driven and not based on handouts from a federal program. How would this work? Canada has this figured out.

    ::::::The dairies bind themselves together cooperatively and “turn off the dairy tank spigot” until the processors pay a sustainable price to the dairymen. That’s it.

    The tough part is binding the dairymen together.

    • Emma Gardner

      “Literally….all of the normal routes to access and grab an ear to listen or send a message are gone. ”

      Suggestion: Use Twitter. Seriously.

    • Emma Gardner

      “Canada has this figured out. ::::::The dairies bind themselves together cooperatively and “turn off the dairy tank spigot” until the processors pay a sustainable price to the dairymen. That’s it.”

      In Canada, the term used is “producers,” because some are actually women.

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    Warren Buffet was asked why he thought that the middle America undereducated working class felt left behind and were easily riled up into a frenzy by Trump? His answer was fascinating.

    He said that 50 years ago, the middle class across the Rust belt were practically guaranteed to have a job and a good life with out higher education or creative brilliance ( my words ). He said, now the creative pioneers that thrive on the new social media, software development, exciting new ideas, and etc…can amass fortunes very quickly. This lopsided ability to quickly amass huge wealth creates a social disparity and jealously. The rust belt feels left behind because they do not have and refuse to get the skills of the new reality. Kind of like “horse whip makers” lamenting the arrival of the car and refusal to learn how to make cars. Interesting views from Buffet. I summarized his words. These were not exactly his. But you get the idea. Some people become angry….others take the energy of anger and instead focus on becoming educated, changing or some other productive evolvement.

    Now….the angry will be abandoned by a billionaire that took them for fools after he got from them what he wanted. But…. Now we find that his closest confidants now report that he never expected to win and that’s why he has no idea what to do now that he has problems and a Huge Country to run.

    The world changes and if you fail to evolve….nature has its ways to compel change. Life on earth has so many examples of species that failed to evolve or adapt.

    With only three of the worlds leaders inviting him and welcoming him including Putin, Assad, the hater in the Philipines…. Boy are we screwed.

    • blesse\'d are the cheese makers

      Mr. McAfee —

      What is up with this discussion regarding the “middle class”? I just wonder who uses that term other than a leftist liberal elitist snob — Warren Buffet being the self ordained “king” of that sect.

      Your dissing of the people who live in the “Rust Belt” as a place where folks were once magically “guaranteed to have a job and a good life with out (sic) higher education or creative brilliance” totally misses the point.

      Let us take a look at one example of a “rust belt” city — Detroit.

      Detroit is a shining example of leftist democrat policies where unions, city government, and the politicians have destroyed the local economy with interventionism and under-the-table cronyism. Free market economics was abandoned decades ago in that city. The demise of Detroit had nothing to do with the quality of the workers in that city and everything to do with unions, cronyism and democrat policies.

      What is the “new reality” that the folks of “rust belt” needs to understand? And how do these mythical beings, denizens of the rust belt, play into the world you have dreamed up where there are once again classes — peasants, middle class, and royalty? They are all supposed to become computer programmers?

      Folks originally came to this country en masse to escape the feudal system where a monarchy, i.e., ruling class, ruled from a place of elitism and social demarcation. Now, somehow, according to you, the “peasants” out here are blindly following Donald Trump while folks like you sit up there in your ivory towers and point fingers at the “little people” for being angry and uneducated.

      I will ask you once again to review the US Constitution and the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers; read “Rules for Radicals” by Saul Alinsky; take a look at the volumes and volumes of reading material out there referencing the Cloward-Piven theory; read all three volumes written by Richard J. Evans regarding the rise and the fall of the Third Reich, read about the historical context of the Weimar Republic in the early 20’s and how hyperinflation completely destabilized Germany after WWI and brought about the playing field which would foster someone like Adolf Hitler to come to power; read “The Law” by Bastiat and “Economics in One Lesson” by Henry Hazlet; — then revisit this discussion regarding how bad Donald Trump is going to be before he even takes his oath of office.

      Geez, Mr. McAfee. From my spot in the bleachers, it appears that your rants on this topic project a totally emotional reaction to Trump’s win. And you are telling us that Hillary would have been the better choice? Wow. A pathological liar, a total hypocrite, someone who has made a fortune “working” in government or as a “community organizer,” someone who has never worked a real day in her life, who has never made anything of value in her life, someone who has never hired one person who was paid for out of her own earnings, that would have been a better choice for this country?

      Please provide us with some well-reasoned discussion on this issue if you are coming out here to spout off your elitist cow manure. In addition, considering the number of patriot right of center folks on this comment section, I’d say citing Warren Buffet as your source will get you nowhere, since he is part of the problem, not part of the solution. If your version of the world is that of Warren Buffet, yes, I agree with you, we are indeed screwed.

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    OMG….I think the sky is falling…no for sure….it just fell on my head…I swear it.
    http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/trump-drinks-raw-milk/

    If this is true…I am shocked and I am tongue tied and amazed. The future is totally unpredictable and who knows how things may change.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Would that it were true, Unfortunately, there is a lot of speculation, connecting the dots, in that article. All I know is that Trump is a big consumer of fast food, and proud of it, partly because it’s antiseptic–he’s apparently a bugaboo about germs. Generally speaking, people who regularly rely on fast foods tend not to appreciate the nuances of good food, especially raw milk.

      This from a major NY Times article about his eating habits, last summer: “Mr. Trump, who frets about germs and prizes cleanliness, also loves fast food because of its consistency and the promise, at least, of a basic level of hygiene.”

      http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/09/us/politics/donald-trump-diet.html?_r=0

      P.S. In fact, I’d say that HealthyHomeEconomist article is a classic example of how rumors get started, and turned into “fact.”

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    The author of the Trump drinks raw milk article….could not and would not reveal the source of the Trump Raw Milk story. That’s makes it a rumor until proven and source is proven and verified. I emailed her and she would not reveal anything.

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    Blessed cheese maker,

    Correction…My elitist spouting off cow manure…is “certified organic manure”. When compared to many of the rants around here….it is the highest form of life on earth. Damn right I am emotional, when sanity gets more votes than insanity by a margin of 1 millon votes but yet insanity wins…I have every right to question my America and be a little disturbed. When nationalist, nazi, fascist, bigoted, Putin loving, white supremacist, sexist, racist, white voters run America….that is not a return to anything great. That is pure hate and something to protest and fear unto itself. You want pure Mcafee….you got me right here.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      One of the things that is very discouraging to me as a journalist is the rise of “fake news”. This study, from Buzzfeed, indicates that fake news sites got more traffic than real news sites over last three months of the election campaign.
      https://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/viral-fake-election-news-outperformed-real-news-on-facebook?utm_term=.npbMWOKKr#.gxr5Rv99E

      • Sylvia Gibson Sylvia Gibson

        Over the last year it was quite obvious that main stream media was extremely biased. It was like they totally ignored all the illegal garbage clinton did, among other things. Why is that? Perhaps follow the money, who owns the media?

        For the so called “fake” news and the main stream media, you had to do your own due diligence, and sadly, most American don’t do. They sit in front of their TVs and swallow whatever the news is spouting, like sheep being led to slaughter.

        The comments in your link are pretty spot on.

        As for wikileaks, ” To date, wikileaks has not released a single set of false documents. They vet the content very carefully. Consider how damaging to them it would be if they did release false information. ” They have been existence for about 10 years and have numerous awards.

        I read some of those emails and they outed that Wasserman (sp) women, the Bezile (sp) woman and others. Some are quite damning for her time as SOS. Really pathetic.

        Out of the millions of people in America our choices came down to the felonious criminal or ass… It really was not hard to choose.

      • Pete

        Thats because the MSM was acting as the propaganda arm of the Clinton Campaign and responsible for more than their fair share of fake news. Trust in the MSM is broken. So called ‘fake new sites’ is yet another false smear. Of course you will refuse to believe this because it doesn’t fit your world view.

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          Pete, can you provide an example of “fake news” from the MSM? I’m not talking about errors that were corrected, but an actual “fake” story, something completely untrue, that wasn’t corrected. Thanks.

    • blesse\'d are the cheese makers

      With all due respect, Mr. M

      You did not take civics in high school, did you, Mr. M? If you had, you might have some modicum of understanding of the Electoral College system we have in this Constitutional Republic and why we have it. Based on your “one million vote” argument, you would have our entire nation in the hands of a simple majority popular vote which would be influenced in a huge way by the largest metropolitan areas in the country, namely, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Houston, et al. The more rural states would be subject to the majority rule of those densely populated areas. Many, if not most, of the lesser populated areas would be subject to the will of the few heavily populated areas. We might as well do away with having two senators from each state as well based on your logic (or lack thereof). As I have heard stated, “Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what’s for dinner.” I have no doubt that under a simple majority vote, the rest of the US would be more than happy to come down and take all the oil that is produced in Texas.

      By the way, these densely populated areas, your state included, tend to be the most leftist areas as well, since there tend to be a higher percentage of constituents who are looking for government hand outs. States like California, who send to Washington D.C. such idiots as Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein, would even have more control over the entire nation based on your “insanity” vs. “sanity” lament. You folks in California are free to vote for the preceding morons, but, from my perspective, I think I’ll pass on those three.

      It appears you have no problem with allowing your California “insanity” to spread over this entire country. My answer to that idea — No, thanks. The voters, via their duly elected representatives of the Electoral College, said, “No, thanks” as well.

      I must hand this one to our insightful forefathers — they did everything in their power to provide checks and balances to our system so as to not allow the majority to trample on the rights and liberties of the minority. This played out well in this recent election.

      At the sake of being redundant, why don’t we wait and see what happens with Mr. Trump before we all go driving off a cliff like lemmings? Just sayin’ . . .

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      Mark, It takes all kinds of people to make this world and that is what makes life interesting.

      I think you will find this article not only interesting but revealing as well.
      http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/trump-drinks-raw-milk/

      “Remember that the new First Lady is from Slovenia where raw milk is available via automated dispensers. These raw milk vending machines are called mlekomat. They are widely found at open air markets and other locations… In addition, the Slovenian government apparently subsidizes dairy farms to allow them to buy these dispensing machines to provide local, raw milk to the surrounding community.”

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    I agree and I am heartened by the first ladies Slovakian origins. However…she is not the president and when I emailed the author about that article…(she is a board of director at WAP), she was not able and unwilling to share what source or evidence that she had that Donald Trump drinks raw milk.

    If you follow David’s link….there is a real problem with news on the internet. It is rife with totally fake and unverified content. Internet money making blog activities are driven by visits and hits…. not accuracy or integrity of fact.

    When Trump shares openly that he is a bacteria-phobe,…a clean freak and likes “the consistency of fast foods” as he enjoys his Coca Cola and Kentucky Fried Chicken on his neater than sterile Boeing 757 private jet , the raw milk rumors do not stack up at all. Not one little bit.

    He is a Howard Hughes of sorts, but with out the engineering brilliance or the pilots license.

    However….this cat is one unpredictable dude….all bets are off. I make no predictions. None…the impossible has happened. That means the impossible and even the improbable is completely possible. Good or bad.

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    Typical Internet lies mascarading as truth. http://flipopular.com/20-celebrities-supporters-donald-trump/17/

    They list Mark Cuban as a supporter of Trump. Who do they think is a fool? Mark Cuban campaigned for Hillary and is a hard core humanitarian and democrat. The Internet is trash for truth.

    Sick of it…..freedom of speech is freedom to lie. People should be held accountable to articles and things they say and pledge. That used to be the old fashioned ethos of the media. Now with untruths selling better than truths….who needs to tell the truth?

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      “Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

      ‘Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?”

      Mark,
      You state, “freedom of speech is freedom to lie”
      Indeed, and freedom of speech is also freedom to be truthful…

      The truth is out there Mark… It’s up to each individual to figure it out as best they can and it’s imperative that they have the freedom to do so. Unfortunately, the truth will continue to evade us if we continue to be governed by our ego… the antithesis of freedom.

      What aught to be of real concern, and this cannot be emphasized enough, is when ego driven human beings set themselves up as the bearers of truth and then use their influence via wealth and status to impose it on others. This is an age-old problem that existed long before the internet and a reflection of man’s elitist, arrogant obsession with control. Indeed, Jesus Christ came face to face with and challenged this age-old problem….

      Here is a sobering statement by Christ that should prompt us to be a little more humble and accepting of others, no matter how wrong we may think they are, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you”. Matthew 7:1-3

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    Ken….very nicely said. I agree with you and your quotation of the foundations of morals, judgment, ethics etc. I agee 100% with you.
    However, Christ died early in life on a cross. We should not be required to sacrifice our lives to live by the ethics, morals and example provided by Christ. Life own earth is something I am dedicated to making better for all people. None of us should have to wait until heaven to reap the rewards of living well and justly on earth. We must all make it our mission to bring a little bit of heaven to earth and live by Christs example every day. How we treat our fellow man and woman is a great place to start.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      Mark,
      When Christ stated, “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”, he was speaking of life here and now on earth.

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    Everyone,

    I am going to take some of the same medicine I have been asking others to take. It is absolutely certain that things in America are about to change. That change is unknown and who knows what it might be. Regardless of the change, we will be the same American citizens during the next four years and we are going to keep on living and being Americans. That’s not going to change. We will be the true change agents come 4 years from now, when we measure if we liked the change that happened. During this next 4 years time….we must be civil to one another and take a deep breath. We must not change for the worse…if anything,… we must change for the better and demand that good change happen around each of us, regardless of what the president does or says.

    As far as Mary and Dr. Ted Beals are concerned, when you read the articles and studies performed by Dr. Beals and read his other words and works, you must read closely. They are accurate and correct. They are written by a scientist and every word is carefully considered. Others that sloppily read his work….miss the nuances and totally miss the content.

    For instance…when he says or claims that some pathogens are outcompeted by commensal flora or other beneficial bacteria…..he is correct. Read his links and the supportive data. They come from UC Davis and other very valid published sources, which show this to be totally true. Great example is salmonella. Salmonella die off quickly in the presence of coliforms. But….ecoli does not die off like salmonella given the same conditions. The problem comes when some people then claim and misquote his words…saying all pathogens instead of some pathogens. He does not claim that the beneficials kill off all of the pathogens, he claims rightfully so that the some pathogenic populations decrease and fail to thrive. Just like in the gut. Good bacteria win over bad.

    So misquoting him is unfair and is not an accurate recitation of his statements. When we enter into scientific arguments,…..we must be very accurate and fair.

    In this new world of “words not meaning a damn thing”…please use words carefully. They do mean everything.

    • Emma Gardner

      I took a look at CDC data for 130 recent outbreaks related to fluid, unpasteurized milk. Of the pathogens responsible, here is the breakdown:

      – Campylobacter: 93 outbreaks (72%)
      – E. coli STEC: 22 outbreaks (17%),
      – Salmonella: 8 outbreaks (6%)
      – Cryptosporidium: 4 outbreaks (3%)
      – Listeria monocytogenes: 1 outbreak
      – “Other – Bacterium”: 2 outbreaks

      So, we need to focus attention on preventing campy and e.coli outbreaks. The one listeria outbreak was the one related to Miller’s Organic raw chocolate milk” – it is an anomaly and I would really like to see this investigated as to what contaminated processed chocolate, sweetener, or stabilizing product might have been added to the milk.

      Would upgrading state testing standards to include mandatory pathogen testing for Campy and E.coli be appropriate?

      • Blesse\'d are the cheese makers

        To Ms. EM from today at 9:10 pm:

        Here are my observations based on your post, Ms. EM. An “outbreak” is defined as two or more instances. In this regard, the term “outbreak” can be and usually is a bit misleading just to begin. Case in point — Miller’s Organic chocolate milk — two cases — that’s it. And, as you stated yourself, what was the cause? The milk itself? The processed chocolate? The sweetener? Stabilizer? None of the above? We’ll likely never know FOR SURE.

        Point Number Two: When you say “recent,” what does that mean? The last six months? The last six years? Then, I would add, compared to what? I put a laundry list of the last 20 years’ worth of primary documented “outbreaks” above, and milk, either unpasteurized or pasteurized, did not even make the “most wanted” list. As Mr. McAfee stated, above, we need to use our words carefully and with precision. And . . . we need some common sense here.

        Another term the CDC loves to use these days and which can be very misleading is the term “linked to.” What is the definition of “linked to”? In a cosmic sort of way, we are all “linked” together if you trace the origin of humanity back far enough. Long and short of it, weasel word.

        Next. How many state mandated testing standard “upgrades” do you need before you are happy? Do you seek a zero sum game? Zero incidents? Absolute certainty? That will never happen with human error involved. Ever. And it does not matter which food we are talking about. This is true, no matter how many state mandated tests, etc., are forced upon the producers. Hell, the food item could become contaminated on its route to the market — or once it is at the store — or once you get it home and open the container and leave it in your refrigerator for a few days.

        The next point is this. If this much scrutiny was placed on ANY OTHER FOOD IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE other than fluid milk, you would find instances of some illness or group of illness “outbreaks’ linked to that food item and you would likely find more food borne illness “links” than you ever dreamed possible in your quest for absolute certainty. Would you continue to demand more and more state mandated tests if you have one instance out of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of users?

        We live with a certain amount of risk every day. A meteorite might strike your house. Lightening might strike you when you walk out the door on a rainy day. A killer bee could sting you and cause terrible illness. You could step on a rusty nail and end up with a serious illness. You could be hit head on in your car as you drive to work in the morning.

        The bottom line is that I grow weary of this never-ending mantra back and forth about fluid raw milk. There are just way too many variables in the entire spectrum to sit there and state that milk, raw or pasteurized, is the demon here. You must know your farmer, know your producer and trust what they are doing and make an educated decision accordingly. Government cannot and will not do that for you. Totally unrealistic expectation coming from these folks who think the government will take care of everything for them by way of more mandated tests, more mandated inspections, etc. It is certainly my decision for me, not your decision for me and not Ms. M Mc-M’s decision for me or my kids . . .

        I close with this. If you have to scrutinize, analyze, postulate, debate and agonize over this product this much, maybe you just should not drink it or use it. How ’bout that?

        PS — Mr. McAfee, thanks for your comment from today. You are totally correct. We probably need to all calm down and move forward and be glad we live in America (although it looks like California may go off on its own — just kidding). None of us knows what the future has in store for us. I, personally, feel some guarded optimism today.

        • Emma Gardner

          Blesse\’d: “Point Number Two: When you say “recent,” what does that mean? The last six months? The last six years?”

          Ten years – 2006-2015. Data on reported outbreaks from https://wwwn.cdc.gov/foodborneoutbreaks/Default.aspx . Go ahead and download it and see for yourself.

        • Emma Gardner

          “Blessed,” I never said that outbreaks will ever be eliminated – this is hyperbole.

          But what if outbreak rates can be reduced, if outbreaks can be prevented by implementing specific production practices? As an example, when HACCP-based food safety programs were implemented in the U.S. meat processing industry in 1997, diagnosed infections caused by E.coli STEC fell 42% over the next 7 years – see http://www.cdc.gov/foodnet/PDFs/Report.pdf. In Canada, governments have indicated that they eventually want all farms producing any type of food to have HACCP-based on-farm food safety (OFFS) plans.

          My friend whose farm was held responsible for an illness in 2009 says that she could have prevented it, given what she has learned since with RAWMI training. (RAWMI didn’t yet exist back then). She says she now knows exactly what she could have done differently.

          We have to listen to our farmers. My question about testing for campy and e.coli (or other pathogens?) is mainly for them — do they think it would be a good idea?

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