Why Are Health Nuts Such Conspiracy Nuts?

The late Aajonus Vonderplanitz

Some months after California nutritionist and food rights advocate Aajonus Vonderplanitz died three years ago in Thailand, I was hearing reports from a couple of his former associates that he had been sighted in the Los Angeles area. The individual they saw had had plastic surgery to alter his appearance, they said, but they were sure from his gait and general appearance that it was him. When they went to get closer to him, he rushed off, and disappeared into the urban landscape, they said.

The sightings confirmed theories by some of his former health and food associates that Vonderplanitz had staged his death from a fall off the balcony of his home in Thailand, in order to avoid growing legal problems stemming from conflict with the former associates over food safety and government raids on Rawesome Food Club in Venice.

The notion of a Vonderplanitz conspiracy to stage his death was very much in keeping with his personality. In nutrition talks he gave to followers around the world, he loved to regale his audiences with tales of government and Big Pharma agents on his tale to injure or kill him. I remember at one talk in southern California a year or so before his death, he showed red spots on his arms where he said agents had injected him with poisons that put him out of commission for months. He also wrote after that about how he and his girl friend had been followed by unknown agents and their SUV forced into a ditch as he drove in rural Thailand.

I was reminded of the various Vonderplanitz conspiracy theories recently by controversy over the deaths of holistic health care practitioners. Various web sites and Facebook pages report on the deaths of holistic practitioners as “another suspicious death,” or similar. An article last year in a health publication known as Health Nut News claimed that 60 holistic practitioners had died within a year, supposedly as a result of a Big Pharma conspiracy. The article shows photos of practitioners, and wonders about the strange circumstances of many of the deaths. It was apparently picked up by other sites, like Natural News and Alex Jones’ Infowars.

Another publication that checks on potentially significant rumors did some probing and digging, and lo and behold, concluded that all but five of the deaths were entirely explainable—suicides, murders by relatives or other known assailants, natural causes. The Snopes conclusion: “There is no conspiracy afoot. Instead, there are simply 61 individual tragedies that have been inelegantly strung together by an alternative health website whose not-so-subtle innuendo has subsequently echoed through the darkest and most paranoid corners of the internet — and which has begun to leak into mainstream media outlets as well.”

Of course, crazy conspiracy theories aren’t unique to the holistic health community. Our tweeter-in-chief for years pushed the “birther” conspiracy theory that Barak Obama wasn’t born in the U.S., and thus couldn’t be President. His fascination with conspiracy theories encouraged a flood of them during the last presidential election campaign, such as the one about Hillary Clinton being involved with a pedophile ring out of a DC-area pizza shop.

But somehow, the holistic health community in particular seems to be a hotbed of conspiracy theories that get told and re-told, and are believed as fact. Theories about chemtrails, world government, and an evil mainstream media are just a few that hold unending fascination.  I saw a link on Facebook from a food rights advocate that mammoth forest fires in the Northwest were being purposely ignored by the mainstream media because of some supposed bias I can’t even remember now.

And then there was the one, posted on Facebook in the last few days by another food rights advocate, that Hurricane Harvey was “a geoengineered storm” that was “fabricated by the NWO (new world order?) globalist cabal (and) fastidiously manufactured and directed at Texas.” Why? In the quote used by the food rights advocate on Facebook, “Because Texas has been at the forefront of the anti-illegal immigration movement.”

That interesting theory got me thinking….maybe the rain storm that wiped out my special outdoor dinner party a couple years back was “geoengineered” by the same outfit, because of my activities on behalf of raw milk. And maybe that blizzard a couple years ago that forced me to cancel some meetings, that same group may have arranged it. There is no end to the possibilities.

Why do conspiracy theories have so much appeal to health advocates? I suspect it has something to do with a deep desire for truth in complex areas of life, particularly health challenges, that don’t lend themselves to easy explanation. Death, in particular, happens to be a natural occurrence that will befall all of us, but it retains huge mysteries no one will solve in this realm. So blame it on conspiracies. Yes, Big Pharma is a negative influence in many areas of modern life, but that doesn’t mean its desire for revenues and profits extends to devoting unimaginable resources to arranging the murders of health professionals who mostly have nothing to do with Big Pharma research and meds.

I also sense that conspiracies by a nameless and faceless “enemy” fit in well with our recent political tendency toward authoritarian rule. Tyrants on both the left and the right have long been adept at blaming organized enemies for unpleasant events that helped the tyrants consolidate power. Hitler blamed communists for the fire that destroyed the German parliament (Reichstag) in 1933, when his own Nazis actually carried it out. Vladimir Putin in 1999  blamed Chechnyans for terrorist bombings of Moscow apartments that were likely carried out by his own regime, outside journalists have concluded. Our president has an affinity for conspiracy explanations of events as well–the mainstream media is one of his favorite culprits.

Once you begin gravitating to conspiracy theories to explain all of politics and natural disasters, well, there is no end to what you can come up with. Like the New World Order creating hurricanes to fight immigration policy.

101 comments to Why Are Health Nuts Such Conspiracy Nuts?

  • David,

    Great topic….
    I think you will find your answer when you study Trump. He is a great conspiracy leader of our day.

    Lies,
    Refusal to take personal responsibility
    Ignorance
    Lack of scientific training.
    A yearning to look smart and see the grand scheme !
    Being the cult leader.
    Leading the niave
    Taking money from the ignorant
    No one mandating accountability for those that tell the twisted stories.

    I suspect many of these elements can be found in the conspiracy nuts reality.

  • Gary Ogden

    David: While there is, and always has been, plenty of BS passing for truth among gullible humans, remember that the term “conspiracy theory” was invented by the CIA when people questioned the official narrative of JFK’s assassination. It is without question that the mainstream media has fed us a line of bull about many occurrences in our lifetime. There is an abundance of evidence that the official narrative of JFK’s assassination is a coverup. Just for example: there were two exit wounds, thus the lone gunman theory is false. The autopsy was conducted not, as one would expect for a president, by a pathologist, but by a Navy corpsman who had never done an autopsy. Ask a building engineer how did WTC building 7 collapse? The only possible way is planned demolition. Never before or since has a steel structure of this type collapsed due to fire. You’ve given some examples of silliness that have appeared on alternative news sites, but make no mistake, we are being played by powerful forces who will protect their wealth at all cost. I suggest you read Sharyl Attkisson’s two books, “Stonewalled,” about her attempts to get information through FOIA requests, and “The Smear,” about the 2016 election. She is a fine, honorable journalist, like you, and she is appalled, as we all should be, about what has happened to the media, particularly in recent years, and particularly since Citizen’s United. This is why the public no longer trusts it. It is not a conspiracy. It is simply a matter of the wealthy protecting their interests, and in full control of the levers of government. When you’ve finished those two books, read “The Real Lincoln.” It is history based upon primary sources and Lincoln’s own words. We’ve been fed a fairy tale about the 16th president, as well. In truth, most Americans of the mid-nineteenth century, in both north and south, were white supremacists. If you think about it, it makes sense psychologically: how could anyone with a functioning moral compass countenance enslaving other humans, except by thinking of them as inferior? President Lincoln. and the Republican Party of the day, cared not a whit about ending slavery. They actively worked on a scheme to “colonize,” black Americans to Liberia, Haiti, and central America. The wanted to get rid of them.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Gary, I didn’t mean to suggest that we don’t have political and other conspiratorial events, and coverups, in the U.S.. My problem is partly with those who see most of life through the prism of a conspiracy. Sometimes, terrible events just happen, for a variety of complicated reasons. After the horrific mass murder of young children in Newtown, CT, in 2012, there were those who argued that the murders didn’t really happen, that there was some kind of official conspiracy to stage it, or whatever. That is just plain denial.

      What I was also trying to suggest is that there is a difference in how possible official conspiracies are treated in open and closed societies. The Kennedy assassination is a case in point. There are definitely unanswered questions and contradictions in that event–the reason we know that is that there has not only been an official government investigation (The Warren Commission), but any number of Congressional investigations and even court cases. In addition, there are literally hundreds of books on the subject. How much in the way of open investigation and analysis was there in Germany of the Reichstag Fire or the Moscow apartment bombings I alluded to in my post? Not a lot. In fact, such events are used in tyrannical societies as excuses to clamp down on free speech and an open press.

      • Pete

        The conspiracy approach to history and politics makes things make a whole lot more sense. It fits the available evidence better. Everything points to the fact we have to mistrust whatever the standard narrative is.

        Or as the saying goes, you’re not paranoid if they really are out to get you.

      • Gordon S Watson

        David Gumpert ; substanting your statement “… such events are used in tyrannical societies as excuses to clamp down on free speech and an open press.” is what happened with the bombing of the Murrah building in Oklahoma City. General B Parton said that ‘it couldn’t possibly have happened the way it’s presented in the official version’. And he was merely one of the top people in his area of expertise = ordnance = in the US armed forces, which means … the world. That incident was exactly the pretext the Clinton-istas needed, to portray their critics as “extremists’

        Since you brought up the myth of what happened in Newton Connecticut, you are obliged to inform yourself with Jim Fetzer’s book “NObody died at Sandy Hook”. Onus is on those who mock and dismiss the investigators of that hoax – to explain the overwhelming evidence that the thing was staged. Start with the FEMA manual which is included in it, for the drill held the day before the so-called “shooting”.

        I admonish you to muster the intellectual courage to confront the really big Idea = the very real possibility that the govt. of the US of A, is that wicked

        when Martin Luther King was assassinated, the proposition that a govt. hit team did it? It was unthinkable. Yet it’s been proven in a court of law.

  • Emily Sundorf

    Citing Snopes and incorrectly attributing the Obama birther beginnings to Trump instead of rightfully to Hillary is lazy and biased.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      I’m “lazy and biased” to attribute the Obama birther campaign to Hillary Clinton? Where is your evidence it Hillary launched it? If you checked around, you’d see that, at best, some Clinton supporters talked about the birther issue when she was running against Obama in 2008. But Trump is the guy to took it and ran with it, for years and years. Here’s one chronology of what really happened (in case you’re interested, which I suspect you’re not):
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/05/06/donald-trumps-ridiculous-claim-that-hillary-clinton-started-the-birther-movement/?utm_term=.596a744c3da3

      • A prominent Democrat PA lawyer was indeed the first birther of any prominence. Philip Berg, whose office was in Lafayette Hill, Pennsylvania, had been a chairman of the Democratic Party of Montgomery County, in suburban Philadelphia and a former member of the Democratic State Committee.

        He pushed it until The AR state chairman of the Hillary campaign was murdered in his office, getting shot in the chest twice. Another Democrat activist also died unexpectedly and suddenly within 24 hours just before she was to give a speech. She had also been a prominent advocate of the eligibility issue as well. The Hillary campaign dropped the issue like a hot potato immediately after the two deaths. Was the woman’s death a coincidence? Maybe.

  • We natural health believers do include folks who believe in outlandish conspiracies. There are also outlandish cover ups that the mainstream media protect with their own zeal. So it’s a mixed bag isn’t it? It appears in that case, it’s not just a few wacko reporters who refuse to admit the real ones, but that all of them are in lockstep as if their jobs depended on it. If you’ve ever seen those Conan O’Brien segments of 20 local TV stations belonging to four different networks reporting the same story with identical wording on the same day, it should be pretty clear that we are being spoon fed what to believe and what to focus on.

    Conspiracies are quite common. When two guys rob a convenience store together, it is a conspiracy, so we shouldn’t be put off by the term.

    When a person discovers how oppressed and suppressed natural healing has been in the US by the AMA, the FDA, and others, it’s not that big of a leap to suspect the government and industry has been shady in other areas as well. Sometimes they had indeed been protectors of evil. Not always, but certainly enough times to not be blindly trusted.

    Not every death of natural practitioners is part of a conspiracy. But there have been at least five murders of people tied to one particular cancer treatment, McMAF. Someone is doing that. A very particular group of practitioners is being targeted. Is it one person doing all the killing? Probably not. That by itself would make this a conspiracy.

    What would be truly shocking if there were never any conspiracies – that every crime was one person acting alone. Yet the media will rarely cover a story where they legitimize a conspiracy theory, unless it’s a mere financial crime, for fear of losing the smearing power of the term.

    “Conspiracy theory” smearing is one of the most powerful weapons the owners of the media have to control the populace. The media manipulators can then commit any crime when they need to and hide behind those two words. History shows us that the term has been quite effective thus far.

    One need to look no further than at which topics the media screams “conspiracy theory!” the loudest to understand where the most bodies are buried.

    It helps them that they can always point to some truly ridiculous claims to polish the “conspiracy theory” term as brightly as ever. For example, if we say Obama is not a natural born citizen since he had divided loyalties at birth, it is conflated with those who claim Obama was born on Mars or on a space ship coming from Mars. Those are two totally different claims, but the smirks come as if they are the same argument.

    Watch how the media manipulates the public. It’s like we are all still in high school and the worst possible outcome is to be seen as a member of the of the uncool. Russia used a heavy hand to control its people. The US uses a hot mic.

    • Found yet another conspiracy – the conspiracy not to let us edit our first draft LOL. As you might have noticed, I left out the word “is” after the word “shocking.” And then there is the double “of the” in the last paragraph. Sorry…I was distract from plotting my next conspiracy.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      I love allusions like yours to “the media” for using conspiracy theories. When you refer to “the media,” do you include Breitbart, Natural Health News, InfoWars, Health Nut News, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News among others? These entities reach millions and millions of people with the kinds of conspiracy theories I described in my post.

      The older more traditional media, like CNN, CBS/ABC/NBC, NYTimes, Washington Post are definitely guilty of herd journalism, even hysteria at times.

      ALL the media are about attracting as much attention as possible to themselves for the purpose of selling advertising, subscriptions, books, etc. It’s just that they use a variety of techniques.

      • You’ve exposed yourself with your reply as to your true intentions after a seemingly balanced original article. Look at how you’ve twisted what I wrote when you make the spurious claim that the media uses “conspiracy theories.” I never said anything of the kind. The MAINSTREAM media uses the term to destroy individuals who go after their sacred cows.

        Alternative media doesn’t use the term “conspiracy theory” to smear their opponents. They might use name calling like crazy Mike Adams does a quite a bit, but I don’t recall alternative media hurling the term “conspiracy theory” against anyone.

        Thus it would have been ridiculous for me to include the people you mentioned as part of the group that uses the term as a weapon. They simply don’t do it.

        It is only the establishment lamestream that uses the label to destroy.

        As for your conflated accusation that folks like Breitbart and Rush are involved with spurious conspiracy theories, it’s yet another exposure of your own previously hidden intent. First you started with a person no one has heard of and used that as your illustration that apparently Rush and Breitbart traffic in conspiracy theory memes.

        If Rush had ever heard of the guy, he would have laughed his rear end off particularly at his ‘followers” if he had any. Your claim that they use the kinds of conspiracy theories is utter nonsense. That you would use their views and try to label them with that smearing label without any evidence is yet another example of what my argument is.

        While all of the media is interested in growing their audience, it is only the lamestream that shouts conspiracy theory from the rooftops to disparage serious accusations.

        Trump asked to see Obama’s birth certificate which turned out to be an electronic digital codpiece. Two separate document examiners on two different continents who were not aware of each other’s efforts and who used entirely different methods both determined that the electronic document was fake.

        Obama for his part let one reporter touch a paper copy for a split second before it was never seen again.

        When someone present a fake document, they don’t get a second bite at the apple.

        Obama also presented a fake Selective Service System document that contained an Identification number with 11 digits instead of 10! The SSS registration is important because Obama needed an SSS to be allowed to work in the WH. He didn’t register when he was supposed to IF he had been an American citizen. But if he weren’t an American citizen, there was no requirement for him to register.

        His citizenship – and his natural born citizenship – is not the same question as to where Obama was born. For example, there is evidence that Obama lost any US citizenship he previouslyhad when he was removed from his mother’s passport while they were in Indonesia.

        When there is that level of duplicity taking place, it’s time to stop calling the people who are presenting the evidence as conspiracy theorists. This was your hidden goal – to paint Trump, Breitbart, Rush and others by raising the CT scarlet letter.

        It’s a dog that won’t hunt any more.

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          Thanks for all that additional “information” on the birther campaign. Hadn’t heard those “theories” or “evidence” or “rumors” before. You have any links to back them up?

          What, exactly, comprises “Mainstream Media” in your world?

          • Gordon S Watson

            one little factoid is enough to undo O’Bama’s status as a legitimate candidate for the Presidency ; he attended Columbia University on a Fulbright Scholarship. Such scholarships being ONLY for people who are NOT US citizens.

            The sum of the best evidence … by which we mean hard evidence, such as would stand up in a jury trial .. is that Obama’s babydaddy was one ; Gary Davis, card-carrying communist agent in Hawaii. Quite likely that Mark McAffee’s father would’ve been acquainted with Gary Davis, since he, and Caesar Chavez, were fellow travellers back in those days. Take a look at the photos of Gary Davis alongside Barry Suetoro / aka Barrack Obama. Same with photos of Justin Trudeau alongside Fidel Castro at the same ages … undeniable paternity

          • David Gumpert David Gumpert

            Now that “little factoid” truly was “fake news.” Watson, thanks for making the point of my blog post better than I ever could.

            http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/was-obama-born-in-the-usa/

          • Lynn McGaha Lynn McGaha

            Gordon, could you possibly have been referring to Franklin Marshall Davis rather than Gary Davis? https://www.inquisitr.com/2043054/communist-mention-frank-marshall-davis-is-president-obamas-real-father/

          • Are you actually asking for links to a criminal investigation conducted on behalf of the Maricopa Sheriff’s office into the validity of Obama’s electronic birth certificate and his SSS registration? How could you not be aware of their many forensic findings??

            You used the disparaging term “birther campaign” once again betraying your agenda. It was a “criminal investigation.” On the non criminal side it is a “natural born citizen eligibility question,” not a birther campaign.

            The computer generated photoshop document revealed criminal fraud and forgery. That would mean something to a real reporter.

          • David Gumpert David Gumpert

            Gee, last I heard, even Trump had admitted Obama was born in the U.S., and thus eligible to become President.

            http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/15/politics/donald-trump-obama-birther-united-states/index.html

  • Cathy Raymond

    What’s with that Sonic weapon used against Embassy folks in Cuba? I heard that on MSM, but thought it was something for the gossip rags. Could it be?

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/sonic-harassment-caused-traumatic-brain-injury-hearing-loss/story?id=49571957

  • David,

    Another category maybe….a little bit of truth taken to twisted extremes with huge embellishment.

    I watched a you tube once that claimed that when chem trails passed over head the levels of toxic contaminants became elevated on the ground 40,000 feet away as measured in an open mason jar.

    People will believe anything. Think…. Jim Jones and Pink Lemonade. It seems the more extreme the easier and the bigger the lie the better.

    That’s exactly how Trump got elected. Promising stupid extreme things to undereducated simple niave people. But he did it with hate and racist passion.

    That’s the part that is very troubling.

    • Gordon S Watson

      yeah, Donald Trump got elected PRESIDENT by promising to enforce the laws agains illegal immigration, so white people can preserve it as a country of our own, the way it was intended … what a concept!

      • Bob

        “so white people can preserve it as a country of our own” Huh? I guess the native Americans would be puzzled by that statement. What about the non-white LEGAL immigrants? No place for them? (except, of course, as workers at Mara Lago–cheap labor always welcome at Trump resorts).

        • Gordon S Watson

          Bob …I’m glad to see someone finally appreciating the difference between LEGAL immigration, versus the invaders claiming ‘refugee’ status as they swarm in from the Third World. If you read my stuff, you’ll see that I make the distinction. It suits those afflicted with Trump Derangment Syndrome, to always confuse the two categories, so as to be able to confound discussion.
          good to see that you are intelligent-enough to admit that the illegals are “cheap labor”. Now apply your insight on to the country, as a whole. Eleven million illegals, undercutting the wages of the white labour force, is THE single most important factor in Donald Trump’s election. As long as the talking heads on the propaganda outfalls, and com-symps like Mark McAffee keep drinking their own bathwater / denying the consequence of invasion of non-whites, they will remain stupified as to Trump’s popularity

          The thinking through most of American history, was, that our God gave us this continent. “Manifest Destiny” … was the official govt. thinking as white people flourished and moved Westward. It is predicated in the Patent uttered by James, the King of England, deeding ALL of the continent to the colonists, even unto the Pacific. James deriving such authority to do so, from the Coronation Oath which he took, while holding the Bible. But because our nation turned aside from serving our God, namely Jesus Christ, He has given us up to the consequences of worshipping all the other little local tribal gods. What you’re seeing in Ham-merica, today, is the separation of the wheat from the chaff, which comes at this stage of the national cycle of the Israelite people, ie. us : white Christians.

          No, the aboriginies are not puzzled by the fact that Caucasians made this continent our own. The best of them are wise … very much race realists. Even while most of them are trapped in the concentration camps set up for prisoners of war, called “reservations”. W orst of all, they’re trapped in the mind-set of perpetual victims, in which ‘the white man owes them a living’. The ones who get off the reserve, and get up-to-speed in the 21st century, do well.

          as for the origin of this thread, re ‘conspiracy thinking’, it behoves David Gumpert and those in the same frame of mind, to read the literature in which the invasion of Europe by non-whites, was set out in the Couvenhoven Kalergi plan, back in the early 1920s. That book proclaims that the intent is = to overwhelm white nations with non-whites, so as to fill the continent with “European negroes who will be easy to govern” … I didn’t say it. He did.

          The notion that 2 million people just suddenly up and started walking from Africa / Syria, to Paris, on their way to sign up for welfare in London, is ridiculous. Ahead of time, officials in those countries agreed one with another, to do a thing which they were well aware is immoral/ illegal. There’s your criminal conspiracy at the very highest levels = to commit Treason.

          Same in the US of A. Especially, in Canada, there is a covert policy to let as many non-whites on to Canadian soil as possible, so they can immediately go on welfare. What’s amusing, is : 3/4 of the population of Canada lives within 100 miles of the 49th parallel! Point being ; non-whites can’t take the cold … they don’t last. So they’re coming to a neighbourhood near you, sooner than later.

          • D. Smith D. Smith

            @ Gordon: I agree about the 49th parallel. I still can’t figure out how/why so many people from an arid, sweltering Middle Eastern area of the world would end up in northern minnesota. Do you think they picked that spot on their own?

            =8-) A coordinated, strategic effort, I’m sure. I have no proof I just don’t think, logically, those people would naturally gravitate towards that area of the country without “help”. But, that’s just me.

          • Gordon S Watson

            you continue to disappoint my respect for you as a journalist, Mister Gumpert. Go read the item on FACTcheck, for which you gave the URL. Someone with the reading comprehension of a jr. high school student, would soon realize that THE RECORDS FROM OCCIDENTAL COLLEGE have not been released. Get it? So the pat denial by someone ostensibly speaking for that school, is ALL that exists in the public domain. The nub of the issue = whether or not Barry Suetoro aka O’Bama = was on a Fulbright Scholarship, remains unknown! Anyone with the intelligence we expect from the mainstream media will understand that all your come-back amounts to, is : a LACK of substance.

            At this point in time = you’ve presented nothing more than denial of a rumor. Whereas the business of a real journalist, is ; to run to earth hard evidence substantiating or undoing the proposition. All’s you’ve done, is deride … the typical kneejerk way out for those who can’t face scrutiny. But O’bama is yesterday’s news. Thank God America is rid of him.

            since you raised the idea that what was purported in Newtown Conn. actually did happen, let’s see you turn your professional talents on the astounding LACK of facts around the so-called Sandy Hook shootings. Start with the FEMA pamphlet of the drill which went on, at that place, the day before the hoax. Did Jim Fetzer make that up? If a journalist of your level were to investigate the Sandy Hook hoax the way an orgaized crime racket is done, properly … exposing the govt. having staged it … you’d have THE biggest story of your career. Are you up to it? Or are you afraid of what you will find?

  • Dana Schultz

    Yes, everything is President Trump’s fault! Our federal government is powerful & D.C. politicians must be held accountable. It was disappointing to read the Trump bashing in what should have been an article that could have been worthy without it.

  • Sara Reilly

    I agree, Dana. And it is funny, coming from those on the front lines of raw milk persecution, targets of “conspiracies” to destroy organic, small, local, raw milk farmers. You’d think they would have more skepticism, instead of swallowing the pasteurized dead milk of the mainstream media.

  • D. Smith D. Smith

    @ David: I would be careful about believing anything from Snopes or any of those weirdo sites. Have you done a thorough search on THEIR backgrounds? It’s simply amazing what people will believe and the dumber it is, the more they believe it.

    • Pete

      ya Snopes long ago lost their credibility.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      They’ve been around a good while, have researchers with good journalistic and other research credibility. Much more than I’ve seen with the sources putting out the conspiracy stories I linked to in my post.

      http://www.snopes.com/about-snopes/

      • D. Smith D. Smith

        @ David: Why on earth would you go to their own web site to find out anything about them? You have to check somewhere else to find the true facts because you don’t think they’re actually going to put their negatives on their own “info site” do you?

        A quote from the link you posted from snopes itself: “Snopes.com personnel have made multiple appearances as guests on national news programs such as 20/20, ABC World News, CNN Sunday Morning, and NPR’s All Things Considered, and they and their work have been profiled in numerous major news publications, including The New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and Reader’s Digest.”

        Do you see anything there except left-leaning publications and mouthpieces? I don’t call that balanced, and why do you suppose there were no right-leaning “news programs” involved?

        I could post several links to articles about why snopes is untrustworthy but it would do me no good because people here would say “oh, conspiracy theories, conspiracy theories, no proof in fact”. So, I trust if people want to explore this matter, they will do it on their own and come to their own conclusions. Personally though, I don’t depend on anything from snopes, truthorfiction, or any other “fact checking” outlets. They don’t know any more about things than you or I would know just from reading a variety of different daily newspapers. Variety is the key word though, they can’t all lean left or right, or you’ll just keep reading the same stuff over and over practically word for word.

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          Afraid I don’t understand what the point is of possible political leanings of the pubs the Snopes researchers have worked for. The point is they have professional journalistic experience, and that gives them research credibility. (By the way, WSJ and Reader’s Digest both far-right pubs.) Fact checking involves actually speaking to sources or otherwise validating them. It’s accepted journalistic practice, whether pub has a left or right leaning editorial bent, much preferable to the “I’ve felt for years this is part of a conspiracy” approach. I also don’t understand why you don’t want to link to articles Snopes has researched. Is it because the people criticizing Snopes can’t find real facts on which to dispute them?

          The reality is that the reporters and editorial writers of major pubs often have different political leanings. Many of the reporters at WSJ, for example, don’t share its far-right editorial leanings. Same with left-leaning NYTimes–some reporters are right leaning.

          • D. Smith D. Smith

            @ David: I wasn’t saying that I won’t link to articles researched by snopes, I was saying I won’t link to articles where the entity of snopes itself is the subject. As I mentioned, people can do their own research and draw their own conclusions about the veracity of snopes and other fact-checking sites. But people can believe whatever they want to believe, no matter who it comes from. This is still, at least as of this writing, a free country. I just don’t happen to have much faith in the validity of snopes.

            And yes, I’m sure there are varied political leanings at ALL publications (some known leanings, some not known) but for the most part those publications I listed in that quote were pretty much left leaners. A good journalist should not and usually will not let his personal ideals seep into his writing. But nowadays we seem to see it moreso than in the past, or maybe they were just better at hiding it before.

          • David Gumpert David Gumpert

            Because I worked for many years for some of these publications, and know how much time and effort go into ensuring accuracy, I give these places more credibility than you and others. That doesn’t mean they cover everything that deserves to be covered, or don’t screw up particular situations (as in coverage about some raw milk controversies). For the most part, journalists are like all types of professionals–they care about doing a good job and adhering to professional standards.

  • David,

    A very close family friend has become so obsessed with conspiracy theory that he has lost practically everything. He was fired from his good job because he became unbearable, anti social and pre occupied by trying to circulate publications and CDs of various “out there” concepts and conspiracies.

    It consumed him. It took over his life. It ruined his life.

    So…..as doctor Phil says..”..is it working for you? ” Do your beliefs add value to your life? Do they enrichen your relationships? Do they stabilize or destabilize your existence?

    In the end, you only have so many days in your life and only so much energy to spend? What will you spend those days and that energy doing? If you want to make the world a better place, what things should you be doing? What are your priorities? Does family matter, does sanity matter? Does your mental health matter? What is worth fighting for ? Does your marriage matter ? Do kids or grand kids matter?

    This person I am speaking about has become so deeply conflicted with anything normal….that he has lost it. He is so absorbed with conflict and alternative reality, that he has no grip on practical reality!! Every answer is based on explaination through conspiracy !

    So this is a real measure of much more. It is a measure of groundedness. It is a measure of who gets more done while maintaining a grasp on reality and love of friends and family.

    What kind of life would you have fighting windmills with a sward. Don’t let conspiracy theory beliefs deevolve to become mental illness. That does not mean you shouldn’t be conscious and follow the next lemming over the cliff. But it means you need to think and think clearly about how to use the days of your life and your finite energies.

    If you want to be effective….pick your battles. As a conspiracy nut….it seems like they pick battles with very thing and become alienated and ineffective to do anything. Wisely… Pick your battles and keep your focus.

    • Bob

      Well said, Mark. It is so easy to fall down the rabbit hole and there will always be people ready to cash in on those willing to stay in that permanent state of paranoia to sell you books, videos or radio shows, etc. You’ve got (ex-preacher/con-man/convict) Jim Baker hawking buckets of survival food now. Getting you ready for the end of the world just around the corner.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      Mark it is said that there is a fine line between genius and madness/insanity.
      I’ve encountered similar individuals such as the one you described and they appear to be exceptionally intelligent yet extremely insecure and prone to addiction. Suggesting that ones excessive preoccupation with conspiracy, as the root of the problem, rather then considering traits that may have been inherited or resulted due to physical or psychological trauma is an oversimplification.
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/6243747/Fine-line-between-genius-and-madness-scientists-find.html

    • David

      Good advice, Mark, but the hard-core conspiracy buff would say that you and your thoughts are part of the conspiracy and people like you are the reason there are so many conspracies we have to work so hard to expose

      • David Gumpert David Gumpert

        What you’re saying, Augie, is that there is no reasoning with many people living in conspiracy heaven. I had held out hope that truth and facts might win out over some period of time, but I am ever less hopeful.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    David,

    It is easy to be skeptical, paranoid, and frustrated in a world where truth and freedom have been manipulated and suppressed at will by the tptb for materialistic, political and philosophical gain/control…Then again, what more can be expected when human beings adopt an anthropocentric controlling attitude? Like it or not, taking advantage of peoples trust = fact and non-fact based “conspiracy theories”.

    If anything deserves the label of a “conspiracy theory” it would be the mainstream media’s persistent narrative of Donald Trump collaborating with the Russians to influence the US election… Maybe he did maybe he didn’t; so far I haven’t seen any conclusive information to prove that he did. And if he did, then I think it is accurate to say that, ‘what goes around comes around”

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Ken, sounds like you’ve got your prejudices covered on the Trump/Russia situation. If the Mueller investigation fails to come up with compelling evidence, then you were correct….and if it does come up with compelling evidence, “they all do it.” Kind of like ‘heads I win, tails you lose.”

      • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

        David, Do you not think that the Trump/Russia situation is emblematic of a “conspiracy theory” fostered by those who wish to see trump removed from office including the mainstream media? I think it is, and those who are relentlessly making that claim are guilty of the very act that they find distasteful and accuse others of committing or engaging in. Please understand that I’m not suggesting that this collusion didn’t occur I’m merely stating an observation.

        As far as the Mueller investigation is concerned, if it does come up with compelling evidence, then I was wrong…and Trump gets what he deserves…“What goes around comes around”. However, based on your interpretation that I’m implying, “they all do it” then no one wins. That being said, the air is currently, especially since Trump was elected, thick with contradiction in political and media circles.

        As I previously stated the Americans people had a difficult choice to make on Election Day. Right or wrong the best possible decision was arrived at based on your countries electoral guidelines. Regrettably there appears to be a lot of sore losers out there who are hell-bent on changing that decision.

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          Ken, as you suggest, the jury is still out, as it were, on the Trump-Russia situation. The Mueller investigation will hopefully shed considerable light.

          What we know is that Trump has said his campaign had “no connections” with Russia, even though pretty clear evidence has come out about a number of emails/meetings between his campaign and various Russians in influential positions.

          I found the 60 Minutes interview with Trump’s former close aide, Steve Bannon, intriguing because he said, on one hand, that there is absolutely nothing to the Russia connection, and yet the firing of FBI head Comey was the worst decision of modern political era because it led to appointment of Mueller as special prosecutor. If there is nothing to the Russia thing, then Trump shouldn’t have any fears of Mueller investigation, it would seem.

          I don’t think the Russia controversy is indicative of a conspiracy, myself. If Russia, a long-time enemy of the U.S., was instrumental in hacking one party’s emails, and possibly tilting the election, and if the other party (Trump) was colluding with the enemy to help get the emails hacked and then distributed to the media and voters to tilt the election, that’s a pretty serious matter. It could amount to something called treason.

          • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

            Being a Canadian farmer living in Northern Ontario, I had no clue who Steve Bannon was until his name surfaced during the election campaign. It appears that Bannon had a substantial influence in Trump winning the primaries and eventually, the presidency.

            I listened to the 6o Minute interview… then again this morning I listened to segments of it towards the end of the Ezra Levant show where Ezra along with Joel Pollak summarized the Charlie Rose interview and shared their perspective on it. It’s worth listening to…
            https://www.therebel.media/ezra_levant_september_11_2017

          • David Gumpert David Gumpert

            I’d suggest you (and others) listen directly to the interview instead of letting people like Pollak tell you it was manipulated or sucked. Bannon hasn’t complained.

            It was an intense interview. It’s the first interview Bannon has ever given to the media, so he clearly selected Charlie Rose of 60 Minutes for a reason. Bannon is a very smart guy, and it’s clear from the interview he enjoys the intense questioning and arguing he’s getting from Rose. BTW, Trump has been quoted as saying he liked how the interview came out.

            https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-breitbart-steve-bannon-declares-war-on-the-gop/

          • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

            I did, and yes. it was intense…

  • Dana Schultz

    When an individual no longer lives in reality, it is called a psychotic break. Yes, my family witnessed this mental health situation in a former relative that lost a high paying upper management 10 year job & spent days & nights on special internet sites filled with dooms day political stuff & government conspiracy theories. There is schizophrenia immediate family history that is the basis of the out of reality behaviors. Please do not generalized the many mentally healthy & intelligent individuals with valid concerns of the world wide monied powers controlling interests. Conspiracies connected to Trump supporters & nasty accusations are making this discussion irritating.

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    David,

    I want to know what special raw milk Kefir smoothies you make to control your nausea….I know you have nausea because of all of the white centrist, purely racist total bullshit that gets written around these parts.

    I can not believe what some of the commenters actually write at this blog that becomes an archive for the ages!!!

    I for one totally denounce racism in any form and embrace the rainbow of humanity in all of its forms. The idea that America is just for white people…makes me nauseated.

    I do a prayer every day thanking the hard working Mexican people for bringing food to our tables….doing the work few fat white air-conditioned people would do at any price. They are the very reason that white people eat.

    So all of you white racists out there…stop eating and start thanking those feed you and will someday wipe your white ass when you are in a rest home.

    Yes….I am nauseated by the low level racist septic tank talk that so freely flows around here. I am going to make a special raw milk kefir smoothie to make my gut as tolerant as possible,…. my brain and heart need it. I would ask that those that demand a white world…think again about our planet, compassion and humanity. Earth is a rainbow of existence. How small to think of earth as a place for pure white folk. First of all… Whites aren’t pure and this place is for everyone!! So get over yourselves and get out and travel a bit and see the world for what it is: A vast sea of humanity with an even more vast possibility because of diversity.

    My GOD has children of all colors, shapes and sizes. My God didn’t write the Bible. My God is love and holds all humanity with tolerance and grace as we go through our earthly antics.

    If you want to be a little more Christ like…start acting and writing a little more like Christ.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Mark, you’re correct, it does take some raw milk smoothies, and meditation, to tolerate some of the stuff here. I allow it mainly because I do feel these people have the right to free expression, and also as a reminder that such individuals are out there, and have been given a nod from the top levels in the U.S.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      You know Mark, those who claim that there is a conspiracy of whatever will say exactly the same thing you just did, “The evidence is hard and it is clear”. Of course they believe that the evidence is on their side… Is that any different then you and the mainstream media’s continual rant that Trump is guilty of collusion even though the Mueller investigation has yet to render its decision on the matter? Like I said “Maybe he did maybe he didn’t”. That being said however, I can’t help but think, that despite whatever decision is handed down on the matter that their will be those in both camps who will have a hard time swallowing it!

    • Dana Schultz

      When all else fails, use the “racist” accusation & rant. Mr. McAfee, you’ve lost credibility. Was the vulgarity necessary?

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    To answer the question about Trump collusion with the Russians. The evidence is hard and it is clear. Of course he did!!!

    He lied about it. He has had business with Russia for years and lied about that also. He met with them…traded money with them….did deals with them. When the final investigation is done the details will show it clearly. Trump is a racist, lying, treasonous traitor. Putin is the only world leader he has not put down or criticized. Why…because he does not want to disrupt business and banking with the Russians he sleeps with and depends on.

    Trump is totally unqualified to be president in any measure. He can not even play nice with his own party.

    TRUMP NEEDS TO GO NOW!!

    • blesse'd are the cheese makers

      I stay off of here for a while and come back only to find Mcafee on here like a broken record ranting about the same old crap/sour grapes about Trump. Here’s a quote from Mcafee from early this morning —

      “This person I am speaking about has become so deeply conflicted with anything normal….that he has lost it. He is so absorbed with conflict and alternative reality, that he has no grip on practical reality!! Every answer is based on explaination (sic) through conspiracy !” (Mark Mcafee, earlier today)

      Yes. That’s you Mr. Mac. You have really lost it. Talk about conspiracy theory eating you up from the inside. Wow. The real amazing thing is how dense you are to not see yourself for what your are doing to yourself on this blog. Love and peace one minute, and I hate Trump’s guts the next.

      What “hard evidence” do you allude to? As far as “doing business with Russia”, duh, USA has been doing that for some time. Hillary sold the Russians uranium. But that’s okay in your little world, right? It was uranium that will only be used for peaceful purposes, right? Your postings on this subject are a total joke. Get a grip, snowflake . . .

    • Gordon S Watson

      it’s going to be an awfully long 8 years, for you, Mister McAffee. The way you come off in this forum … fulminating-away daily against the cartoon monster tormenting your bi-polar self … will cause your blood pressure to do you in before PRESIDENT Trump is finished restoring the “white” to the White House …. you won’t make it through his 2-terms. No matter how much REAL MILK you drink, your body won’t stand the strain of flipping from the smiley-faced merchanidising genius, schmoozing 60s style “peace love and horgasmic good vibes”, to the rabid Democratic attack-weirwolf personality who gives his-self permission to go nuts at the stroke of midnight.

      I know it’s unethical to diagnose from a distance … but, in the vein of “Free Advice is worth what you pay for it” Dr Watson here prescribes a listen to David Lindley’s first album, particularly the line … “one more racket’s gonna be your last”

    • Ora Moose Ora Moose

      Mark, for those of us that generally shut out any commentary that features the words “Trump and Russia,” please summarize just what business dealings you are talking about that could justify impeachment. And while you’re at it, list Hillary’s most important accomplishments keeping in mind that she was in fact in the White House for many years and probably had more influence than the Vice President or any other elected politician. I’m listening. I hope you don’t polarize your paying customers the same way and that you do sell raw milk to Blacks, Asians, Native Americans and all others that can afford it. I have no case to rest.

  • blesse'd are the cheese makers

    In the early 60’s, I played little league baseball. When we lost a game, we would meet on the field and congratulate the winners. Same in junior high, high school and college. It’s called “good sportsmanship.” When a candidate won an election, the other side, no matter how heated the campaign, would congratulate the winner and vow to get behind that person in an effort to unify the constituency. That’s called, at least in times past, “the American way.”

    In these troubling times, human decency and being a “good loser” is no longer an option in today’s snowflake, Hollywood, one-sided SJW world. If you don’t like the outcome of an election, you stomp your feet, clinch your fists, jump up and down and have a two-year old temper tantrum. And apparently, based on MSM and Hollywood fanning the flames, this is somehow acceptable behavior.

    Remember this. About half of the voting population, give or take, voted for Trump. It was either a vote “For” Trump, or, as in my case, a “Not Hillary” vote. Whatever the case, when you come out here and lump all Trump voters into the infamous “basket of deplorables”, you just insulted half of the population.

    Isn’t it about time to move on from this constant rant displayed by the likes of Mr. Mac?

    By the way, even though Mr. Mac “rests” his case, he never made his case in the first place, except to the other little two year olds who are in the same little play pen, fighting over who gets the sand bucket.

  • I suppose the Jews should have been better sports and complied with Hitler. When something is wrong you fight to correct it…..what that fight looks like. Those with a soul don’t let their country be taken over by the likes of Trump.

    You didn’t see or hear me being upset by Either Bush or other republicans. It is Trump that must be removed.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      Mark,
      Bush and other Republicans (not all of them however) are establishment politicians just like Obama and the Clintons… so when someone like Trump comes around the establishment crowd “team up…they sing cumbuya together… and form a two party dictatorship” in an attempt to oust him. It didn’t work during the primaries and it didn’t work during the presidential election.

      Listen to Dave Rubin discus with Jesse Ventura his views on Trump, Hillary, Bernie, Immigration, and conspiracy theories.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMpcBZhFJig

    • Gordon S Watson

      our Grade 3 teacher taught us that ‘people start using profanity when they run out of intelligent things to say” … which applies – in spades – to Mark McAffee venting his spleen, motormouthing the epithets. reductio-ad-Hitleram’ … ringing-in the ultimate loaded word, as though it somehow makes his point … is the very bottom of the barrel. how ’bout getting back to REAL MILK ? Mister McAffee is better left alone to descend into the “purging” state which is required before he recovers sanity

      SINCE HE BROUGHT IT UP … I shall address McAffee’s sneer = “I suppose the Jews should have been better sports and complied with Hitler.” In the 2003 essay entitled “The Holocaust as a mental paradigm”, Dr Henry Makow makes the case they did just that. Citing the definitive history of the Holocaust : “The Destruction of the European Jews” by Hilberg which is based on meticulous Nazis documentation. Hilberg could barely get his book published because he documented the extent to which the Nazis depended on the Jewish Councils (“Judenrat”) to administer the final solution, and the lack of any real Jewish resistance. He estimated that fewer than 200 Nazis died due to Jewish resistance. … Hilberg concluded that the mythology of the Holocaust requires that the victims appear to be heroic, and to be engaged in a struggle, however unequal. In fact, the Jews went to their death like lambs to the slaughter. (Hilberg, The Politics of Memory p.135) In the 1960’s, Jewess Hannah Arendt was slandered and ostracized when she concluded from Hilberg that “almost without exception” the Jewish leadership cooperated with the Nazis

  • blesse'd are the cheese makers

    Oh, please, Mr. Mac. You have zero credibility at this juncture. The ad hominem Hitler v. Jews metaphor shows you have no argument, no factual basis for your assertions, i.e., no conclusive evidence, and no credible support for your position. That is just an assertion to evoke an emotional response, which is what you mostly do when you are on one of your Trump rants.

    Let’s take a look at the “removal” of a president from a legal perspective.

    Art. I, Sec. 2 of the US Constitution (remember that little document?), states that the House of Representatives “shall have the sole Power of impeachment.”

    What does that mean? Articles of Impeachment are merely a form of an INDICTMENT. Once Articles of Impeachment are issued by the House, then the case against the president goes to the Senate for trial.

    (See Art. I, Sec. 3 — “The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments . . . When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.”)

    So — Mr. Mac. Please present us with verifiable evidence that any of Mr. Trump’s conduct since he took office in January 2017 would rise to a level that a majority of the House would support an Indictment against Trump, much less having done that, move to the Senate and have 2/3 of the Senate vote that Trump should be convicted and removed.

    Oh, wait. You can’t do that, can you.

    Are you proposing some other means to “remove” Mr. Trump from office, Mr. Mac?

  • Rosanne Lindsay

    You are sliding down that rabbit hole with your reporting, Mr. Gumpert. Since you claim to only choose “factual sources” let’s investigate one with which you align. Snopes, which I like to call S-nopes is a disreputable company run by a corrupt couple that is now in the midst of a lawsuit after a messy divorce. The husband of the husband-ex-wife team is being sued for mismanaging the company’s funds and abusing his position. Seems that Karma is a bitch. In other words, what goes around comes around. No one is immune from the consequences of his choices. As a result, the husband, David Mikkelson, had to beg for funding through a gofundme page in order to stay afloat. https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2017/jul/28/ticker-fact-checking-website-snopescom-considers/#
    To bring up Snopes in your article as a reputable source of information, while pointing the finger at the holistic health crowd, is ironic since you used to be a part of that holistic health crowd!

    What your article shows is that what you choose to report on has more to do with your own belief system and less to do with the facts. One person’s truth is not another’s. Truth is individual, based on perception, and therefore changes over time. As we grow in wisdom, truths shift. However, as you choose to criticize whole groups of people over political choices is to play into the hands of Social Engineers and Politicians who are paid well to keep people divided. Why you have chosen to dive into mud slinging, at the expense of promoting a whole, healthy food source (raw milk) is something only you can answer. But what you are doing is to further sub-divide people with each new article. Are you happy with that outcome? Are you now suddenly a political reporter? If so, that is your choice, but I suggest, as many other commenters suggest, best check the reputation of your own sources.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Whoa, you’re moving too fast for me, Rosanne. You seem to be saying that because the people who own Snopes had a messy divorce and one shareholder filed suit against the company, and because the owners did a crowdfunding campaign, the site can’t be believed. I read through the article you linked to, which has lots of titillating info about the divorce and “the other woman,” and I couldn’t find a single allegation that there was a problem with the site’s research activities, such as the research it did on the holistic docs who died. Small businesses frequently run into financial problems because of messy divorces or disputes among the owners, and sometimes such problems drive them out of business. But it’s entirely possible, actually happens a lot, that (as one example) a restaurant’s owners will fight among themselves, even file suit against each other, and continue serving wonderful food because the chef and wait staff stay on and adhere to the founder’s high standards.

      D. Smith made similar allegations about Snopes, that it’s not to be believed or trusted. He said it’s because some of the researchers have been associated with “liberal” media outlets. Sorry, that’s no more evidence than you have cited. Still not a single example of how Snopes screwed up on one or another of its research articles.

      The only comment at the end of article you link to is intriguing. Here is what it says: “The more I read about this saga, the more confused I become. Shame there isn’t another site like Snopes to fact-check it for me. But seriously, it is frightening that there are so few other sites on the Internet that specialize in fact-checking clickbait and fake claims in email chains—which is why Snopes is hated by the alt-right. They perform an invaluable service, so I really hope that everyone involved gets this drama behind them quickly and the site can continue with its integrity intact.”

      When you say, “Truth is individual, based on perception, and therefore changes over time,” it reminds me of Kellyanne Conway’s assertion that there are “alternate facts” when Trump kept insisting his inaugural crowd was the largest of all time, even though side-by-side photos clearly showed it wasn’t. I’m sorry, but facts are facts and truth is truth for things like crowd size or cause of death (of the holistic docs).

      Mass delusion and fantastic conspiracy theories that seek to blame supposed enemies or minorities or whatever are the stuff of tyrannies, whether they come from the left or the right. I’m sorry you see me as creating division. That’s not my intent. I’m trying to shake otherwise decent and smart people to their senses.

      • blesse'd are the cheese makers

        “I’m trying to shake otherwise decent and smart people to their senses.”

        Please elaborate more regarding this assertion.

        On its face, this assertion implies that you have determined the truth of the matter and those of us who see things in different way are out of our “senses” if we do not agree with your deductions.

        With all due respect, I disagree with many of your political positions. Nothing personal. I just disagree with some of your positions. I also disagree with some of the cause and effect connections you have postulated here. Still nothing personal. We just disagree.

        At the risk of sounding redundant here, I offer into evidence one more time that pretty much half of the population who voted in the last election also disagreed with some of your positions.

        The point is this. I read extensively. I have studied the Constitution extensively. I have read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers. I have read John Locke and Cicero. I have dug deeply into many of these things, and I come to some different conclusions than you do about some of these issues.

        I trust certain news sources more than others. You trust certain news sources more than others. You choose to find as gospel the NY Times, for instance. I do not.

        I give more credence to Rush Limbaugh and Mark Levin as commentators. You give more credence to Wolf Blitzer or Rachel Maddow (or whomever on CNN or MSNBC).

        I am not sure I and folks on my side of the political spectrum are the ones who need to be “shaken to their senses.”

        So. There you have it. Stalemate.

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          I definitely didn’t make things clear enough. I got lazy at the end of a long comment. My concluding comment wasn’t meant in political terms about shaking people up, as if trying to get them to my political views. I really don’t care if you agree with me politically. I was talking in larger terms, about what I see as a gravitating by many people in the holistic health world (and elsewhere) toward a hysterical group think and explaining unpleasant events entirely in terms of conspiracies from “the mainstream media (MSM)” or “new world order (NWO),” or whomever.

          My hope, likely naive, has been to try to wake at least a few people up to the dangers of explaining everything you don’t like (climate change, immigration, loss of American manufacturing, GMOs, etc., etc.) in terms of grand conspiracies (of the MSM, NWO). Such conspiracies inevitably morph into ever darker conspiracies of the kind postulated by Mr. Watson (conspiracies to dilute the white race, to undermine Christianity).

          So, I was only encouraging some semblance of critical thinking, encouraging people to review their history, listen to commentators they don’t necessarily agree with, rely more on common sense. Tyrannies are built on those dark conspiracy theories, that a scheming unseen enemy (the media, the Jews, the globalists, the monied interests, take your pick) are conspiring to take from us, give to the underserving, and make our lives miserable. Nearly always, the reality is more complicated, more nuanced. That’s all.

          • Gordon S Watson

            one wonders what it will take to provoke you to open your mind to a few FACTS, Mister Gumpert, which will substantiate what I ( and many others) proffer to prove wickedness afoot = ie. “scheming unseen enemies” who target the white race.

            I can get you a hard copy of Coudenhove Kalergi’s book, along with an original copy of her Plan for Peace, signed by Margaret Sanger, if that’s what it will take for you to admit that there most certainly was – and continues to be – an ages-long agenda to replace white people with “European negroes” = Kalergi’s term, not mine. And to make laws so that eugenics laws will replace Negro “weeds” = Sanger’s term, not mine.
            I don’t make this stuff up … it’s my calling to publish it to people who are sincerely interested in the truth
            a good primer as to what the Nazi were about, is at this URL
            http://balder.org/judea/Richard-Coudenhove-Kalergi-Practical-Idealism-Vienna-1925.php

            but you ARE making progress! Articulating the position of your political opponents, forces you to consider : “what if they’re right?!”. If you’re truly interested in encouraging some semblance of critical thinking to review their history” you will summon the integrity to open the treasure trove compiled by Dr Henry Makow. One wonders if you’ve got what it takes, to confront really Big Ideas … such as = we were very badly duped about some of our society’s core beliefs?

          • blesse'd are the cheese makers

            Okay, Mr. Gumpert. Thanks. I agree, reality (i.e., the truth) is much more nuanced. We sometimes generalize or categorize when things aren’t really that cut and dried.

            As far as “climate change” is concerned, Mr. Mac, this appears to be one of the few, if not the only, instance where some sort of “consensus” makes it so. Last I check, a scientific conclusion based on the scientific method is not decided on consensus. You can believe in the tooth fairy if you want, and if you ask a cross section of four-five year olds, you’d probably get a consensus that the tooth fairy exists. However, that “consensus” does not make it so. “Experts” cannot even accurately predict what the weather will do in three days, much less come to a scientific verifiable conclusion on “climate change” which, by the way, used to be called “global warming” until they saw that there is been no warming trend in the last 15 years.

            Finally, I am sick and tired of folks like you who think they are so sure about your alleged manmade “climate change” looking down your nose at folks like me who are skeptical of this proposition.

      • D. Smith D. Smith

        @ David: Quote from your above post: “D. Smith made similar allegations about Snopes, that it’s not to be believed or trusted. He said it’s because some of the researchers have been associated with “liberal” media outlets. Sorry, that’s no more evidence than you have cited. Still not a single example of how Snopes screwed up on one or another of its research articles.”

        I don’t think that’s what I said or what I meant. I was trying to point out that if most of what you look at or take your information from is primarily left-leaning publications, how can you possibly call that fair reporting?

        I also mentioned that I wouldn’t post links to things referring to the foibles of snopes because someone else would just find another link saying the exact opposite. So for that statement I am now criticized? This is the INTERNET. You can find anything you want to find, it’s just that you have to be discerning in what you choose to believe. I didn’t think by alerting you to the fact that snopes is probably not your best bet for “verifying” information I was going to start an information war. I pointed out a few things and yet said, in no uncertain terms, that people were allowed to believe whatever they want and you have misconstrued and now highlighted that information in the wrong context. Please go back and read my comments and see if they were really all as bad as you’re saying.

        And I also made reference to the fact that most reporters/journalists/writers try not to let their political and other personal beliefs/ideals seep into their writing. At least that’s how reporting used to be done. But I guess blogs are different in that regard, I don’t know.

        Lately most of what you are posting about on this raw milk/health blog has very little to do with raw milk or health subjects. I stayed away for a long time because of the toxic comments and subjects here. I probably should consider doing that again for a while.

        And, BTW, I’m a SHE.

  • Mark Levin and Rush Limbaugh…..both slam climate change and call it a hoax. Water temps in the Caribbean just showed what warming water does…your denial is a very tragic story of mental illness to the total expense of fellow human beings.

    Who has lost credibility here??

    Time for me to realize that this place is a smoldering hole filled with racist conspiracy preoccupied trolls. I don’t know where all the rational people went but I suspect they left because posting rational arguments is a waste of time.
    I am leaving for Quebec to attend the IMGC conference to learn more about the actual science of raw milk nutrition, genomics, proteomics, and safety so I can be a better resource for our consumers and the growing raw milk markets. I won’t be arround to pick on. So you all have fun bathing in your racist brew.

    • Gordon S Watson

      and good-bye to you, too, Mark McAffee … your last-ditch attempt to distract discussion down yet another off-topic = man-made climate warmism = is pathetic. I’ll tell you where all the people went who used to say nice things to you … they retreated in disgust as your asshole persona was Writ Large, polluting the dialogue. It took you 20 years to build up a reputation as a leader in the Campaign for REAL MILK. Then, as your crypto-communist character manifested, the white Christian demographic which is the backbone of the Campaign for REAL MILK, rejected your ridiculous political opinions. Your relentless irrationality about PRESIDENT Trump alienated the audience which = previously = had great respect for you in your area of expertise. If you ever sober-up from your hyper-partisan hysteria, you’re going to find out how negative publicity is orders of magnitude stronger, and lasting, than all the goodwill you garnered for Organic Pastures.

      the triggering event, was, the interview with the pig farmer in Michigan (?). Then, I posted, kidding, “he won’t be voting for Hilary”. From there on, you were the one who led the comments down the slippery slope into the manure lagoon in which you find yourself now.

      what both you and David Gumpert failed to grasp, which I’d realized from the start, is : by far the majority of people who do the work of dairying to make REAL MILK available, are white folks. I daresay that 95% of those who view this forum … certainly most of those who post on it, are Caucasian. The engine of the Campaign for REAL MILK, is white people intuitively seeking to find our way back to the America we love = the land of milk and honey, under the Law of our God. Genius that you are at marketing – you have an enormous blind spot on that crucial point. As I brought it to your attention, you went “balistic”… as though the mere expression of such an opinion, based on the FACTS !, is illegal. The capper was when you pronounced that your god is a different god than the one we Christians serve. Thus alienating yourself from the constituency upon which your business was built.

      Mr McAffee : if you had 2 functioning brain cells and were sincerely concerned to figure out how you got from the position of esteemed elder in the raw food movement, to being reviled as an anti-Fa asshole, now, you’d go back and read your own writings. Then repent. But you won’t. Like your Big Sister Hilary, you’re locked-in to the paranoid, hysterical state of sore losers.

      there’s a Budhist teaching which would be worth you pondering. In order to discover how important your leaving is, to the world, put your hand in a bucket of water. Then withdraw it. See the difference?

    • Blesse'd are the cheese makers

      Hey, Mark —

      Okay, Cry Baby. What a pompous little dweeb. Go ahead. “Run a-way.” “Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.”

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    The following UC Berkeley article states, “The virus (Bovine leukemia virus (BLV)) could have come through the consumption of unpasteurized milk or undercooked meat, or it could have been transmitted by other humans”, yet fails to include vaccine injections which bypass natural censoring mechanisms as a possible, and in my opinion, a highly likely avenue.
    http://news.berkeley.edu/2015/09/15/bovine-leukemia-virus-breast-cancer/

    Animal retroviruses such as BLV are recognized contaminants in animal derived serums used to cultures vaccines.
    http://www.rense.com/general32/thrur.htm

  • William March

    The only one that makes any sense is Rose Anne Lindsay .Why are you all talking about a man who died in an accident 3 years ago ,he had questionable credentials and did not cure himself of cancer by drinking raw milk and eating raw food and he is not running around Calif ,in plastic surgery .The same thing goes for Trump ,Obama ,white raciest,climate change ,warming of the Gulf ,Hillary ,etc .All of this plays into the minds of gullible people .Work together to get the raw milk laws changed not by dividing your group.Raw milk and pastuerized milk are both good foods as well as organic or convential meats and vegetables ,the choice is yours .Choosing either way does not make a person ignorant ,or uneducated ,as some bloggers would have you brlieve.Thank you

  • John Dutcher

    David,
    Have to admit that in between some very interesting and educational links and conversation, there is getting to be some very “Twilight Zone” like entries. Maybe Gordon should start a website “KKK for Milk”, just kidding gordy-o-boy, before you take it seriously, geesh, this has turned into a Kukla,Fran and Ollie show, with a touch of George Wallace, just for kicks :>) I really look forward to reading here more than ever for comedic relief, like I said, in between some very important issues. I find it all too funny to puke LOL!!!!

    • Gordon S Watson

      John Dutcher. You seem to have missed the parts, where, just about every other post, I appeal to get this forum back on the main topic, = discussing the politics of the Campaign for REAL MILK. If – as Mark McAffee bleats lately – it’s deteriorated so as to wind up in the manure lagoon, you can thank him and his maniacal rants against not only Donald Trump, but ALL the citizens who elected him. About 6 months ago, it seemed that McAffee had at least acknowledged that Donald Trump will be presiding over the Republic, for the foreseeable future. At that point, McAffee proclaimed that he was “not going away” … ie. that he’d continue posting his stream-of-addled-consciousness about all things Trump. I then warned him that every time he did so, I’d dish it back to him.

      Mark McAffee is entranced in a very serious mental illness which leaves the patient dis-connected from objective reality. Like an alcoholic in denial, there’s no helping him ’til faces and deals with the basic problem within. Which is : He was brought up as a communist yet managed to keep that anti-christ brainwashing secret, til he blurted out days ago. For years, he used this forum as a vector as he established himself as a marketing genius / one of the prime movers of the Campaign for REAL MILK. But his idiotic pronunciamentos during the presidential election ruined that reputation. Mouthing-off to the max., he exposed himself as a deeply flawed character.

      having been involved in it for over 20 years, I know that the Campaign for REAL MILK, is one battlefront in the war against the anti-christ globalist agenda. White Christian Americans are coming to our senses, remembering our heritage = the Law of the God of Israel, namely Jesus Christ. Rendering to text that he does not serve the same God we do, he outed himself : Mark McAffee proved he is not on our side.

      • Ora Moose Ora Moose

        Gordon and John, here’s some rim shot humor to brighten your day:

        What do you call a guy who regularly drinks an entire bottle of wine, in Egypt then jumps in the big river?

        That’s right, an “alcoholic in the Nile.”

        buddabing!

  • John Dutcher

    WOW, Gordon, REALLY????? A Buddhist teaching, Buddhists are NOT usually WHITE PEOPLE???????????

  • Gordon S Watson

    it’s “DeNile” not “the Nile” … such as the outrageous-ness displayed by Kernan California’s favourite son … predicting on this forum : “Pence by Xmass” … the next stage in grieving, ie. bargaining = Mark McAffee appealling to his gods for “anyone but Trump”

    but! let’s not let him drag discussion down into the depths of his misery…. … let’s get back to REAL MILK, eh

    • John Dutcher

      Funny you say that Gordon about Mark, anybody but Trump. During the elction my mantra was anyone but Trump or Hillary, anyone,please, a real human being would have been nice. Not Trump, and certainly NOT Hillary. Could not in good conscience vote for either one of those bozos. Walt Disney’s Pluto would have been a better choice.

  • John Dutcher

    We always say Da Nile :>) Gordon, your description of Mark as being entranced in a very serious mental illness sounds very much like what I and many others feel about you, seriously Gordon, you need some counseling or something to get your anger/trolling under control and put on your big boy pants and act like an adult, or at least print something/anything that has a bit of saneness to it and sounds less like something from a middle school student, other than your quotes of book titles, your credibility is also at stake here and spare me and others of another one of your senseless rants, PLEASE!!!!

  • William March

    I don’t understand all the back and forth fighting and insults from the commenter’s on this blog .I thought this site was to support raw milk and real food farmers and users of these products .Instead what I see are back and forth insults ,and hatred of different options .I think some of you should take up a hobby to calm yourself down .We have a lot of wonderful hobbies in this country i/e golf,hunting ,bird watching ,model railroad ,crocheting ,chess ,etc. If you are unable to get into a hobby we have wonderful,TV programs such as Judge Judy ,DR.OZ ,Sponge Bob ,The Simpsons ,infomercials ,and so on .Please try to be a little nicer to the participants of this blog ,and don’t take yourself so seriously ,we are talking about MILK.

  • Gordon S Watson

    Mr March, what your post reveals, is : a] you’re completely out of touch with what went on, over the last year, on this forum. For about a decade, it was doing fine, perking-along, as (probably) the pre-emininent internet hangout for people to discuss the politics of raw milk for human consumption. Mark McAffee’s opinion carried a lot of weight, because of him leading the way with the largest dairy / marketer of REAL MILK, in the world. As well as = his reporting about developments on the cutting edge of milk science. All of a sudden, a-pro-pos absolutely nothing, about August 2016, he went dog-balls! … railing against Donald Trump. From a standing start, he went to full-on foaming-at-the-mouth fulmination against Trump, every other day. One day he’d post something intelligent about milk, then within 24 hours … usually at 2 am … he’d post invective so angry it was worrisome. A 18o degree flip from the personality who’d post bliss’d-outed new-agey nostrums like “love all serve all” yadayada. A textbook case of bi-polar dis-order. Many regular posters quit showing up … obviously repulsed by the rancor. The owner of the forum, David Gumpert, just let him go on. It just got worse. So I treated McAffee accordingly, dishing it back to him in spades.

    What you’ve seen lately is indeed = “hatred of different options” [sic ]. Mostly me, rebutting communist sloganeering against Trump. As I promised I would after he’d vowed to continue to post his rants. A couple of days ago Mark McAffee anounced he was “picking up his ball” ( his repuation) and leaving”. But the pouting won’t last long. Prima donnas demand an audience. If they don’t get good attention, they’ll come flouncing back on-stage, stirring up trouble so as to get bad attention, because – for them – it’s better than no attention.

    b] you’re exhibiting classic troll behaviour, Mister March. Wading-in here, pretending to care about propriety, clucking with the same old “tone versus content” kvetch. Just “talking about milk” ? No, some of us are discussing the welfare of the nation … particularly = how to contend with its domestic enemies ensconced in high places, as well as the masked thugs rioting in the streets, whom Mark McAffee identified as pals of his. I sorta doubt that you’re able to grasp a concept that Big .. so The kindest thing I can say to you, is : take your own advice = go stick your head back inside the tv tube, like you were before.

  • Ora Moose Ora Moose

    Gordon, you often make a lot of sense other times borderline embarrassing conspiracist comrade type. Each voice here is heard regardless of shouting level and is eventually snuffed or not we don’t want absolute silence do we? Mark is a polarizing major entity but we enjoy his insider insights even if I don’t agree as with anyone else.

  • Gordon S Watson

    no, Ora, I sure don’t want absolute silence. The guy who slunk away from this forum the other day … snarling back over his shoulder his trademark epithets … is the one on-record as demanding certain opinions be snuffed out ||||| not me. He’s the one who congratulated the masked thugs [ who call demselvs “Anti-Fa” ] when they ran a speaker off Berkely campus. Looting, beating people up/ setting fire to cop cars … are all just “highspirited youfs having fun”, in his understanding of politics … as long as they’re aligned with his brand of primitive Marxism.

    “Polarizing”? … you got that part right. A reader of comments by McAffee is forced to figure out: either he’s nuts, or I am. The litmus test being: Mr McAffee’s obsessive use of the word “nazi” in literally EVERY post he made about Trump. 3 of Donald Trump’s children are married to Jews, and the very first thing he did as PRESIDENT, was to fly to Israeli territory, put on the headcovering, for the obligatory photo-op at the Wailing Wall. Mister McAffee apparently failed to notice that, at the Inauguration, after First Lady Trump led the nation in the Lord’s Prayer, a Jewish rabbi pronounced scripture from the Old Testament. Hard to gyve those FACTS with Trump being a “nazi” … Just one laughable example of how the world in which Mark McAffee dwells is 180 degrees at odds with the objective reality shared by the rest of us.

    I’m the one who – repeatedly – urges this forum return to focus on REAL MILK, rather than let McAffee hijack it as his personal platform, the way he did for the past year.

    Any time you want to pursue some assertion of mine, which strikes you as “conspiracy”, contact me off this forum, and I’ll provide all the hard evidence = such as will stand up in a court of law = to substantiate it.

    My friend Doug Christie * was the one who said “if you truly believe in freedom of expression, you must give to even your enemies”. Mr Christie was the one who defended Ernst Zundel, in the 1985 and 1988 trials in the Supreme Court of Canada, where Zundel was charged with “false news” for having published his opinion about certain FACTS of history. In one of this century’s most important moments in the perpetual battle against state censorship, Zundel prevailed. Rest in Peace Ernst Zundel, until the Resurrection

    • John Dutcher

      Gordon,
      That is an easy one Gordon, your nuts!! Occaisionally you have some clarity in your statements, but mostly it is ranting gibberish. Certainly Mark has his share of ranting too, but he is not so much “off the wall” as you are. I do not always agree with you, Mark or anyone else. You spout off so much about YOU wanting to get this forum back on the track of fresh milk, but you ,sir, are the person who just won’t let it go, like a bull dog on a bone, like a redbone on a ‘coon trail,you are obsessed with Mark McAffee. The term “nazi” all by itself is not polarizing, but you put in a polarizing context. AND, your objective reality is mostly only “understood” by you, not by the “rest of us”, plus YOU are the biggest hijacker of this forum. But I do get quite a few good chuckles out of your rants and sometimes you you make very truthful statements. Your rants, Mark’s rants, my rants, cheesemaker’s rants, etc.,etc., we all sometimes hijack this site for our own means. Gordon seems unable to play with other childersn :>) Get over yourself Gordy boy :>)

      • Ora Moose Ora Moose

        “That is an easy one Gordon, your nuts!! ”

        Hey hey there John, let’s leave the private parts out of site and this conversation if you know what I mean. I don’t even have a “grammar police” badge before you ask.

      • Gordon S Watson

        Dutcher = you’re the one who – at least twice I can thing of – bid me adeiu, but now comes right back … never to talk about REAL MILK / rather, to go about ‘tone versus content.’ You can quit with that = yes, you got one thing right = I am “the person who just won’t let it go”. Prime example, being : when Mark McAffee (in his asshole mode) raised the topic of artificial abortion … here, on [ supposedly?!] a forum to do with REAL MILK. Of all people, McAffee ought to know better. As long as he kept puking-out the 50-year-old non-sense : that the child in the womb is “only a mass of un0rganized cells”, I rebutted him. Then when other posters chided McAffee about hijacking this forum as a platform for his obsession with Trump, he vaunted that he ‘wasn’t going away’. But he has … although I’m not holding my breath! The little crybaby can dish it out, but = on politics = he had nothing more going for him than his motormouth.
        But thanks anyway for the attention, John Dutcher. One of the best lessons I learned in the ( so-called ) PRO-Life thing, was how to cope with the mockers. That’d be you … those whose role is “to wear out the saints”. That’d be those of us called to rebuke the domestic enemies of the Republic …. that’d be Mark McAffee and his ilk

        “NOT polarizing” ? the terms “nazi” and “racist” are tossed in to the public square by the commies as a calculated way to shut down critical thinking. Exactly as they teach at their schools for activists. The commies do well when their enemies retreat in disgust. But they slink away when someone like me goes toe to toe with them, over the long haul. Exhibit One ; McAffee fleeing the contest, after he started it.

        • D. Smith D. Smith

          @ Gordon: You will, Gordon, even if no one else here does, appreciate this.

          Paul Harvey says it best in this finalized version of his radio talk entitled “If I Were The Devil”. He died in 2009 so he couldn’t have known how true his words were going to be by 2017 and beyond. We are headed into America’s darkest hours right now and we better hope there’s light at the end of that dark tunnel.

          This is 3 1/2 minutes of pure wisdom – but no answers for us, only for the devil himself.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Az0okaHig

        • John Dutcher

          Gordon, your warm and charming personality keeps bringing me back and I did bring up raw milk, well really cream,illegal cream in my coffe, you must be a skimmer,not a reader. Your communist obsession is as strange as your obsession with Mark!!!??? And your reply is very predictable. And you,sir are also guilty of which you accuse, hijacking this site for your own means!! You really need some humbling experiences in your life as your ego is larger than your obsessions :>)
          Ora, good sense of humor :>)
          D. Smith,America’s darkest hours? I used to hear those words in the late fifties and early sixties, and life goes on :>)

  • John Dutcher

    And Trump IS a bit of a nutcase himself, but his ego is like a half -cocked pistol, never know when it is going to go off or in which direction. Gonna go get another cup of coffee with my illegal cream :>)

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    Dr Jerry Tennant – pH and Voltage = Healing Voltage = good fat

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4_8EE8a8YI

    “The best form of (good) fat is raw milk.”

  • William March

    I agree with Gordon there is too much anti Trump hatred in this country.Trump wants the borders closed ,stopping illegals from coming accross open borders .He also wants tax relief ,better jobs ,a change in the health care ,etc.He is not a raciest he is not against gay people .I also agree with Trump on what happened in Charlottesville ,I saw bad people on both sides ,that does not mean I agree with raciest or antifa.You don’t go to a rally with your face covered ,and with bottles of urine ,baseball bats ,etc.As far as his sexist remarks against women, let the priests,rabbi’s mullahs ,and politician’s” cast the first stone “. There has been lots of stupid things said by historical persons throughout history ,men like to brag foolishly, Donald Trump is not a polished person .Remarks made on Sept 13 by me were made in ‘ jest ‘to lighten up the remarks made by certain individuals in this forum.I have supported the Amish farmers for many years as I have said before there is too much militancy in the raw milk movement ,there is no reason for the name calling etc it’s just milk ,and GORDON I do not spend my time watching TV,rather my time is spent running my business ,and counting my $$$$$.Thank you.

  • D. Smith D. Smith

    It confounds me as to why people who are interested in their own health and the health of others are referred to as “health nuts”. Are people who insist on raw milk considered health nuts? There are extremes, I know. But . . . there are many extremes in the conventional health industry and no one is mentioning those because, apparently, no one considers them “extreme” except us health nuts, huh? Last ditch chemo, radiation and invasive surgery isn’t extreme? Overdoing the vaccines to a point where they’re causing injury, known injury including death, to both children and adults? And that’s just two examples of BigMed’s denials.

    I think there’s room for finger-pointing from both directions.

  • Blesse'd are the cheese makers

    Why can’t we all just . . . . get along?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAomAwIwxm8

    Jack Nicholson in “Mars Attacks”

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