Proposed Warning Label Advising Self Pasteurization Offers Way Out of Raw Milk Regulatory Logjam

A new citizen petition designed to eliminate the need for FDA regulation of interstate sales of raw milk would presumably also eliminate the need for raids on food clubs like the one shown here, where agents descended on Rawesome Food Club in Los Angeles in 2011 in search of illegal raw dairy products.

In 1987, after years of avoiding involvement in regulating raw milk, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration acceded to a federal court order to prohibit raw milk sales across state lines. Since then, the FDA’s regulatory approach has amounted to haphazardly harassing small dairies, many of them run by Amish and Mennonite farmers, in an effort to keep a lid on raw milk sales.

Unfortunately for the FDA, its main accomplishment over the last 30 years in the raw milk realm has amounted to stimulating lots of negative publicity, in the form of movies like “Farmageddon” and books like my “The Raw Milk Revolution”, not to mention loads of newspaper and magazine articles reporting on the growing popularity of raw milk. And also stimulating a booming black market of sorts for raw milk sales.

So wouldn’t you think that the FDA might welcome a rational and workable way out of the nearly impossible burden of trying to ban the interstate sales of raw milk?

The Real Food Consumer Coalition (RFCC), a budding organization focused on encouraging community-based food sources, hopes so. It has submitted a citizen petition to the FDA proposing the agency exit the business of regulating interstate raw milk sales in favor of an explicit warning label on raw milk that would advise consumers about raw milk’s potential risks. The label would do more than just warn people about the risks, though; it would also provide information for how buyers can easily conform with FDA’s long-standing policy on dairy—by advising consumers how to pasteurize their milk at home.

The petition was submitted late last week by the Washington law firm, Emord & Associates. Its founder, Jonathan Emord, has successfully challenged the FDA on behalf of clients producing nutritional supplements and other alternative medical products.

While a number of citizen petitions on behalf of eliminating or reducing federal involvement in regulating raw milk have been filed in recent years, most by California raw milk producer Mark McAfee of Organic Pastures Dairy Co., none have taken the tack of this new petition in proposing a labeling approach. Those petitions, arguing that raw milk products aren’t especially risky, have mostly been ignored by the agency for years, despite requirements that they be acted upon within six months.

According to this new petition, “Petitioner respectfully requests that the FDA exercise its enforcement discretion to avoid taking, and to cease taking, enforcement action against those who distribute unpasteurized milk and milk products in interstate commerce when the milk products bear labels that include in conspicuous bold face type prominently displayed under the statement of identity for the product: (1) a warning regarding the health risks of unpasteurized milk and milk products; and, when applicable, (2) instructions for safe handling, including self-pasteurization.” (For details on the proposed label’s specific language, see page 2 of the petition.)

The petition argues that, “There is no need…for milk to be pasteurized before it is sold to consumers. Self-pasteurization is as effective as industrial pasteurization in reducing bacterial infection in milk and milk products…. Indeed, because self-pasteurization occurs immediately before consumption without the product remaining on store shelves or being transported in unrefrigerated vehicles to the home, it is likely more effective in eliminating harmful bacteria from milk and milk products.”

The petition may also be one of the first official tests of several executive orders issued by President Trump demanding a serious reduction in federal regulations. It cites the cases of four different farmers for whom enforcement of the interstate ban was “extremely burdensome,” thanks to FDA enforcement and other actions against them. The four farmers cited are David Hochstetler of Indiana, and Mark Nolt, Amos Miller, and Daniel Allgyer of Pennsylvania.

“Rather than persecuting and shutting down farmers like those above who provide a desired good to consumers, consistent with the President’s Executive Orders referenced above, the FDA should exercise its enforcement discretion and allow the sale of unpasteurized milk and milk products in interstate commerce when they bear the labeling recommended in this Citizen Petition.”

The citizen petition clearly aims to change the tenor and content of the debate over raw milk. That debate has mostly consisted of advocates arguing that raw milk is safe and highly nutritious, and the FDA and other opponents arguing that raw milk is so highly risky it must be severely restricted from distribution.  The result is continual sniping between the two sides, with each questioning the motives and evidence of the other. The citizen petition, in my judgment, provides a workable arrangement that bypasses the recriminations that have for years characterized discussions about raw dairy.

By opting for a label on raw milk containers that provides details about the main concerns of opponents, raw milk advocates of RFCC are hoping the FDA will see an opportunity to exit the difficult regulatory position the agency has been in, and leave the tools and responsibility for handling raw milk in the hands of consumers.

113 comments to Proposed Warning Label Advising Self Pasteurization Offers Way Out of Raw Milk Regulatory Logjam

  • Zack

    Great article David! Very exciting! Makes perfect sense.

    People can buy, transport and consume cigarettes and alcohol, even weed with proper labeling. Even pregnant women can consume these products, yet nutrient-dense fresh GMO free and grassfed raw milk can not be transported over state lines and consumed under certain circumstances?

    This petition is a great opportunity to solve the ridiculous draconian laws imposed upon small raw milk farmers and consumers. Great to see Liz Reitzig leading the way again!

    Thank you for always being at the forefront of raw milk issues.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Children were left off the label as a high risk group.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    I’ll post something later or tomorrow night. Listing all the illness is also missing. This a discussion we had on your blog 7 years ago.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    I can’t remember when the home pasteurization discussion began, but it was years ago.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    David, do you remember this? Now this is a warning label!

    Warning: Unpasteurized milk, also known as raw milk, is a raw agricultural product and may contain harmful bacteria (not limited to E. coli, Campylobacter, Listeria, and Salmonella) and can lead to serious injury and even death. Pregnant women, infants, children, the elderly, and persons with lowered resistance to disease (immune compromised) have higher risk for harm, which may include bloody diarrhea, vomiting, fever, dehydration, Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome, Guillian-Barre Syndrome, Reactive Arthritis, Irritable, Bowel Syndrome, miscarriage, or death.
    Note: Raw Milk must be kept refrigerated at 40 degrees at all times.

    It is the balanced information you don’t get from the WAPF. It is the other side of the raw milk story and children are the ones who suffer most. It is a joke “children” was left on the warning label. Shows that people on the other end of this movement just don’t get it. I mean really, who do they think the majority of victims are from drinking contaminated raw milk? Adults?

    Shame on whoever came up with this weak warning label? A cut and paste from California’s raw milk warning label???

    Dear RFCC, since 2005 there have been 19 pathogenic E.coli outbreaks, 145 illnesses, 56 hospitalizations, and 36 cases of Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome. 35 of the 36 cases of HUS WERE CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 18 WITH THE MAJORITY BEING UNDER THE AGE OF 10!!!!!

    Not to mention all the children who get sick from Campy and Salmonella. Come on people!!!

    On a positive note, I LOVE the home pasteurization information.

    • Zack

      Are you against raw milk?

    • Zack

      Mary, what is your response to this? “People can buy, transport and consume cigarettes and alcohol, even weed with proper labeling. Even pregnant women can consume these products, yet nutrient-dense fresh GMO free and grassfed raw milk can not be transported over state lines and consumed under certain circumstances?”

      • Mary McGonigle-Martin

        So Zach, are cigarettes, alcohol, and weed targeted for children to use with the claim that illnesses can be cured with its use?

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Mary, the home pasteurization information is more than just information. It is an advisory to people buying the milk. All the gory detail you want about illnesses isn’t appropriate if your label is advising people to take the pasteurization step. The label is telling people that public health protocol is that raw milk is risky, and for improved safety they should heat the milk to pasteurize it.

      The details about illness from food-borne pathogens apply to any foods that might sicken people–the symptoms are the same whether you get e.coli O157:H7 from spinach or raw milk. You don’t see such detailed warnings with spinach–in fact, you don’t see any warnings. The warnings from restaurants about the dangers of raw fish or meat are very general.

      • Mary McGonigle-Martin

        Now David, do you believe people who are buying raw milk from a herdshare or buying club are going to pasteurize the milk? After the pasteurization instructions, there should be a wink.

        • Mary McGonigle-Martin

          Call a spade a spade….one of the main target groups for the consumption of raw milk is children and this group should be listed on the warning label especially considering they are the age group who is most likely to become ill. Sorry the gory details bother you, but that is the reality of consuming contaminated raw milk. Parents should know the choice they are making when giving their children raw milk.

          • Gordon S Watson

            parents who take pains to get REAL MILK, to feed their children, are far, far better informed on the topic than any random member of the general public. Rawmilk-drinking parents are exercising their duty to care for those in their charge – especially, to obtain the best food containing the balanced suite of NATURAL vitamins A, D and K2. Put people who drink raw milk for years, side by side with those who haven’t ; simple observation bears out the theories of Weston A Price.

            from my 20+ years’ paying attention to the Campaign for REAL MILK, what’s now coming in to focus, is : the Dairy Cartel has plenty of hard evidence that its product = “homo milk” = generates all sorts of harms in populations which consume it, over years. Those corporations are wittingly hiding that evidence, today … exactly the same as Big Tobacco knew perfectly-well the harms of its product.

            if REAL MILK were only a tiny, niche market Big Dairy’s frantic, persistent opposition to it would be illogical. But the mere existence / availability of the real thing puts their product to shame. As Siegfried Gursche said : “find a way to tell the truth”. The proposal for labelling is one of those ways.

          • David Gumpert David Gumpert

            I think Michael is correct, that you really can’t let go of the gory details and the guilt. It seems pretty clear that if every symptom you could think of were listed, every story told, and the label became a book, it would still not be enough for you. There would always be more you’d want, yet never enough to allow people to make an informed decision about their food. So what you would be left with is the present situation, where no information is placed on labels, no public health advice is offered to consumers, and the black market simply grows and more children get their completely unregulated raw milk. One thing is for sure, however: if your view prevails, you won’t be able to say that raw milk proponents haven’t made a sincere effort to resolve this situation.

            I suspect your obstructionist approach is the minority approach, that we’ll push this, or something similar, through Washington with the backing of people of good will.

          • Elaine F.

            Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome can come from exposure to e. coli, which you can get from so many, many sources. And it comes from overuse of antibiotics. And from contaminated meat or produce, and swimming pools or lakes contaminated with feces. You can get it from pasteurized milk! Only raw milk from 100% grassfed cows should be consumed. Raw milk from grainfed cows probably contains e. coli, as cows are not designed to digest grain and it makes them sick.

  • Mary,

    The fair and balanced warning label would include all your stuff and add the following to become advisory & informative:

    Consumption of raw milk has been shown to dramatically reduce asthma, excema, allergies, increases bone density, reduces ear infections, colds and boosts immunity and is not normally associated with lactose intolerance!!!

    Now that’s a balanced statement you can sink your teeth into.

    Add the following:

    when Listed By RAWMI and when raw milk is tested raw milk is considered very low risk. Raw milk that is intended to be pasteurized is high risk because it comes from unsanitary conditions and should be pasteurized.

    To much information for a label ? It can all fit…..

    Emord is going to kick some FDA Ass. Liz, super proud of you….you go get um. From what I hear, the FDA is literally scared of Emord. He has spanked them so hard so many times before. He is probably the best lawyer to take them on and win. Under Trump….the odds are very good to get this done. Did I say that ???

    My Raw Butter citizens petition still sits at the FDA ( over a year old now ) Not one illness or death could be found for retail sold raw butter…..not one. Ever !!!

    The FDA and the judge in 1987 screwed up by not including raw butter with raw cheeses aged sixty days in the interstate ban exemption. Both are class four and have very low pathogen potential risks. Near zero when compared to risky pasteurized dairy products that kill practically every year ( listeria ).

    Good stuff David!! Thanks Liz. Emord rocks!

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      Mark, you can’t claim a certain food heals. It is against the law. You know that. As for RAWMI listed dairies, if you are claiming the milk to be low risk, then why did OPDC have a 3rd E.coli outbreak in 2011 with 10 people becoming ill, 4 hospitalized and 2 developing HUS. RAWMI is a good concept, but the reality is E.coli is a strong and dangerous pathogen. Besides, your dairy is just to large to be safe. You’ll have a 4th outbreak in another 4 years.

  • Mary,

    Did you know that our Phd friends at IMGC ( UC Davis and other research centers around the world ) have discovered that breast milk routinely contains pathogens including salmonella ! They have found more than 700 types of bacteria in breast milk. They have also determined the reason for this. This is healthy and this is normal. This is natures way to excercise and develop the infant and child’s immune system. Sterile foods do not help a child.

    So your idea that pathogens are dangerous is not well considered. There is a balance in the concept about pathogens and illness. A few pathogens in our food helps develop our bodies ability to not get sick from exposure to our environment.

    While I do agree that in general pathogens are not a good thing when considering modern immune depressed sterile food eating children…..that’s the point. Modern kids are in trouble.

    Kids need exposure to organic dirt and some manure. If they had that exposure…..we would not be in the mess we are in. Remember the hygiene hypothesis ??? It has been affirmed over and over again.

    Cleanliness may be next to godliness….but sterility is a prelude to death….so true!!!

    Do we want healthy kids or kids forced to live in bubbles. Bubbles are troubles.

    That’s why smart well educated moms have their kids eating unprocessed whole foods including safe tested raw milk with its biodiversity of bacteria ,enzymes, un denatured proteins, and bio available minerals and good fats. Their kids are thriving ! The proof is in their health!!

    Lets stop suggesting that children should never play in dirt and be sequestered away from whole foods and a pathogen or two. That’s a recipe for disaster.

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      Let’s see Mark, you are the founder of RAWMI which educates farmers about all the pathogens that can find their way into raw milk and what can be done to prevent it because it will MAKE SOMEONE ILL and you teach farmers safety protocols to prevent this from happening, but when I bring up the reality of children becoming sick from raw milk, you say, “So your idea that pathogens are dangerous is not well considered.”

      You can’t have it both ways Mark. You’ve had 3 E.coli outbreaks at your dairy and 7 children developing HUS. Do you really want to say that the idea of pathogens as dangerous is not well considered? Everything you stand for right now is about these pathogens and preventing them from getting in the milk. It is times like this Mark I want to hit you up side the head.

  • JHeckman

    New Jersey Raw Milk Hearing in Trenton on Monday.
    NJ Legislative Subscription Service
    Session 2016-2017
    The following bill(s) have been scheduled for a committee or a legislative session.
    Doherty, Michael J./Bateman, Christopher
    Permits sale of raw milk under certain conditions and establishes raw milk permit program.
    5/8/2017 10:30:00 AM Economic Growth
    Committee Room 1, 1st Floor, State House Annex, Trenton, NJ

  • Michael Schmidt

    I am amazed at Mary. She is like a Energizer bunny. I see her points but it represents exactly what’s wrong with today’s view of many with blinders on.
    Nothing is good enough and at the same time the guilt trip keeps coming. It’s remarkable how most attempts to find constructive solutions to a health concern is hijacked by the same old.
    I hate falling into derogatory thinking. Mary Google car crashes with children and look only at the pictures. Then start a campaign against cars. If you really care what you are saying look beyond your own tragedy and see that there are a lot of kids who actually benefitted from raw milk. I cannot change you and don’t want to change you because it would not work.
    Are you writing a book about all the raw milk victims?? Bill might help you to publish your passion of defamation and repetitive appearance of care for raw milk victims.
    This initiative tried constructively to work with regulators to make raw milk safer for everyone. Your input is valid your slandererous tone is counter effective for what you stand for.

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      Michael, when did I say that children don’t benefit from raw milk? Can you find that somewhere? What I have said is the benefits don’t outweigh the risks, so keep your facts straight.

      Guilt trip??? Sorry if you are somehow feeling guilty. You should look in the mirror and ask yourself why what I write makes you feel guilty? I’m hitting a nerve you should explore.

      As for car crashes, here in the U.S., when someone is getting a drivers license, they do watch gory films of car crashes to make them aware how dangerous driving can be if you are not responsible behind the wheel. Irresponsible driving causes accidents and with that death can occur. All raw milk dairy farmers should watch films of children in the hospital after drinking contaminated raw milk to see the suffering they endure. It would make them better dairy producers.

      As for trying to work constructively with regulators to make raw milk safer for everyone, I don’t believe this citizen’s petition aims at making raw milk safer. It appears to be a petition to change the laws regarding the sale of raw milk across state lines and you are hoping a warning label and information on how to pasteurize milk will do the trick. So don’t refer to it as making raw milk safe. Although I guess you are correct if the consumer decided to boil the milk. Now it is safe.

      After 10 years of talking about this subject, it is shocking that the pro raw milk group is so out of touch with who is becoming ill from contaminated raw milk that they leave “children” off the label. As a group, this was your chance to get it right, and you failed. And the attorney’s who were paid to do this didn’t even catch the Washington label (page 5) that does have children listed and think, “Maybe we should add children to this label since we all know that is the group that is becoming ill from raw milk.”

      I’m sorry if you all think I sound so critical, but you are all smarter than this and you all have the ability to use critical thinking skills. 1. We want raw milk. 2. Children are getting ill. 3. Create a label that has children as a high risk group and list the illnesses the pathogens can cause because we want parents to make an informed decision. If they aren’t comfortable with the risks, pasteurize the milk. We aren’t in the business to sway people in one direction or the other.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    David, you are so far out in left field about me. You can’t even remember what I have posted here over the years about warning labels and home pasteurization. Go back to 2010 through 2012 (I think those are the years) and find it. It is all over your blog. I advocated for a detailed warning label which included illnesses along with home pasteurization information. For people who want to support their local raw milk dairy farmer, the warning label combined with home pasteurization information allows a parent to make an informed decision regarding the dangers of raw milk and if they are not comfortable the risks, then they can pasteurize. It is a win, win for all. The milk is sold, the small farmer can make money and the consumer is warned. In the end, the consumer makes the decision to drink it raw or pasteurized. I don’t know why after all these years you continue to demonize me. It is really quite sad.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Mary, my comments weren’t meant to be personal, to demonize you. I remember the discussions a few years back about warning labels and home pasteurization. They became very detailed. I remember that one of the obstacles, for raw milk proponents, was approving a label that advocated home pasteurization. Why would we encourage something we felt was detrimental to the milk? We’ve gotten past that, in the interests of transparency and inclusion and progress.

      I think that where you get into trouble is when you question motives. Your first comment in this thread was to question that “children” were left out of the warning label (though infants are included). I asked you if you’d approve it with children listed in the label. You then indicated that my response and others didn’t matter, because the label was really “a wink”–in other words, just a means to a destructive end.

      The reality is that the motivations of those of us proposing this citizen petition should be irrelevant. We are doing the right thing. Period. So long as you question our motives, you’ll be unable to sign on to anything, because in the end, that becomes your fallback veto position.

      • Mary McGonigle-Martin

        David, I’m not questioning anyone’s motives. I said the “wink” statement because you and I both know everyone who wants to buy raw milk across state lines from a herdshare or buying club is not going to be pasteurizing their milk. That said, I love the idea about home pasteurization being included on the warning label. No one selling raw milk should be invested in how the consumer chooses to consume the milk.

        My frustration is that whoever the “we” is that was involved in deciding what was placed on the warning label didn’t even think children was a risk group, when in reality, children are the group becoming ill from raw milk. There isn’t a high infant group because the directions for making the infant formula calls for the milk to be heated. So you are left with the high numbers being children.

        As for what you call the gory details of the illnesses, I see as counteracting the pro raw milk information the WAPF puts out about raw milk. Thanks to social media, I have had contact with 10 moms whose children developed HUS after drinking contaminated raw milk. They all have the same story…. they got their information from the WAPF and many were involved with a local chapter in their state. 5 of the 10 moms were members of a herdshare or buying club. None of them ever thought their children could become this ill from drinking raw milk and the learning curve was hell.

        The “we” of your group owes it to all of these moms and who came to raw milk through the dogma of the WAPF to warn future parents of the possible real dangers when switching your children to raw milk. They need to honor all of the sick children who have suffered and do the right thing.

        That is my reasoning for using the warning label I posted that lists the pathogens and illnesses that can happen when consuming raw milk, along with instructions for home pasteurization. All bases are covered and the parent has been educated. If after making the choice to give children raw milk, a parent can never say, “I wish I knew my child could have almost died from drinking raw milk.” It was clearly posted on the warning label.

        • Gordon S Watson

          “motive” ?! accumulated postings on this forum, alongside testimonies you gave in other venues, make your motive is abundantly clear Mrs M McG. Your position is the very opposite of sincere interest in REAL MILK being made available so Americans can heal ourselves, after our racial enemies managed to poison the national food supply. You’re in league with the leading legal predator which specializes in such torts, Marler & Co. You have nothing better to do than scout-out people who will engage him to act for them in litigation. I suspect that you’re even in for a cut of the settlements … or at least the ‘bird-dog fee’

          Of course there are people who get sick from consuming REAL MILK. Same as there are millions per annum who get sick from consuming all the rest of legal foodstuffs – or, that’s what the CDC would have you believe. Contrast those anecdotes with the thousands of testimonies from moms whose children’s health miraculously turned around, after they started on REAL MILK. You’d have acknowledge what the rest of us found out = that the benefits of drinking raw milk far, far outweigh the harms done. But = bigot that you are = you refuse to let in such information. Your postings on this forum have zilch to do with the betterment of how REAL MILK is produced/ distributed. You’ll go to your grave, locked-in to the narrative in which you’re the noblest of dem all = the Champion of your little princeling, the heroine in your own psychodrama. Confer with the Biblical reference to “those who are sent to wear out the saints” ….

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            When I use the word Wackadoodle to describe some in the raw milk movement, you are wacakadoodle #1.

          • Gordon S Watson

            back in Grade 3, our teacher taught us that = “people resort to profanity when they run out of intelligent things to say”. Mary Martin McGoogle, being Exhibit One. I rest my case. Since her stock-in-trade, is : the relentless One Trick Pony Tearjerker, I’m halfway inclined to start posting the testimonies of parents whose children were spiralling down to death, after main-stream medicine had given up. Those parents cried, too … for joy, at life flourishing out of the jaws of death. A couple of thousand years’ experience with babies thriving on whole fresh pure raw goat milk, when un-able to take anything else. A small but critical part of the heritage of white Christianity for …oh, say … 3700 years. “I shall give you milk enough for your maidens”

  • Mary….Mary….Mary….

    Children benefit the most from raw milk,,,.yiu know this. Parsifal, Gabriela, Pasture Cohort, LMU study, all are peer reviewed and internationally published. All explain that children that drink raw milk benefit massively!!!!

    Bottom line….you are passionate and you were injured as a mom. You watched as doctors totally screwed up and used antibiotics when they are now contraindicated. Yiu have your numbers wrong…

    There were never 7 HUS cases. There were maybe 2 and those two never had ecoli found in their stools. That does not mean that kids have never become sick. On that point I do agree…..but you miss the massive numbers of kids that have recovered from all sorts of illnesses some of which are life threatening. You know that ecoli infection does not mean a resulting HUS diagnosis.

    You have told me that you are part of a moms social network group. That group of moms have kids that have had ecoli….but did not get full blown HUS and their kidneys were spared.


    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      Mark, do you want me to post all the state reports on your 3 E.coli 0157:H7 raw milk outbreaks? Maybe to deal with this reality, you use denial as a coping mechanism. Your dairy is too large and you will continue having outbreaks. You make this choice and have to live with the consequences.

      2006–2 cases of HUS
      2011–3 cases of HUS
      2016–2 cases of HUS

      HUS is a red blood cell disorder. As the red blood cells die, the kidneys become clogged and children go into acute kidney failure. When Chris became ill the data out there on HUS was that 50% of children diagnosed with HUS went on to need kidney dialysis. All children diagnosed with HUS will need blood transfusions because the hemoglobin count gets too low and without a transfusion the children would die.

      Your MO is to downplay illnesses or place blame elsewhere. HUS is a very serious, life threatening disorder regardless if you receive dialysis or not. All sorts of complications can come from a negative reaction to receiving someone else’s blood.

      As for my Facebook HUS Moms group, in less than 4 years we have gathered 99 moms. The data on these moms does not correlate with the 50% of children who do not need kidney dialysis after a diagnosis of HUS. In our group I think we have 2, maybe 3 children who had what we have termed “HUS light”. Meaning they were diagnosed with HUS and only required blood transfusions. These children were typically in the hospital for 2 weeks.

      We have 3 children in our group who passed away and another 5 or 6 who have had kidney transplants or are waiting for a transplant. In all cases but 1, the parent is the donor. We have children who had strokes and now have brain damage and physical impairments. We have large group of kids who now have kidney disease and someday will need a kidney transplant, but for now with the use of medication, their kidneys are being assisted and they do not require dialysis yet. We have another large group of children who have kidney damage, but for now their kidneys are functioning without medication. Over time this will change.

      LIFE LONG challenges and complications for all of these children.

  • Mary….

    Do you advocate for Breast feeding?

    Breast milk is raw milk. Breast milk is untested and unregulated. It is un- inspected and contains pathogens and plenty of diverse bacteria . It is fed to children and babies. Breast feeding is recommended by nearly all doctors, the AMA and the FDA and USDA and the surgeon general. Breast feeding is practiced by women around the world!! And have done so since the beginning of being mammalian.

    Sounds like a very weird conflict in philosophy. Breast milk sounds a whole lot like raw milk in places where raw milk is illegal.

    How can one food be so great and highly recommended….yet the other food meeting the same exact description be so horrible.

    Weird!!!! Very weird.

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      COW SHIT IS THE DIFFERENCE!!!! Strange question coming from the person advocating RAWMI and helping farmers to prevent cow shit from getting in the milk.

      • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

        The microbes in cow and human shit is the same as the bacteria in every orifice of the human body… It’s widespread and it is there for a purpose and will fulfill its designated task. Problems arise when humans attempt to manipulate and control microbes using toxic interventions that undermine its terrain.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad


    From what you have written over the years it appears to me that you are vehemently against feeding raw milk to children… As such your, argument for detailed labeling that includes a special warning about feeding raw milk to children and allows parents the option to do so, is neither candid nor sincere. How do you rationalize this conflict?

    I’m very much in favor of including children…with this caveat, “WARNING, feeding raw milk to children whose immune systems have been compromised and suppressed by vaccinations and/or other drugs could result in serious ailments and toxic complications such as HUS”.

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      There is no conflict, I would never condone feeding children raw milk because I believe the risks outweigh the benefits, however I am a realist. Raw milk is here to stay so educate those who may decide to feed it to their children so that they are making an informed decision. I have been stating this for the last 10 years. When a parent only receives information about all the benefits of raw milk an informed decision about the risks can’t be made. Have it all on the label, front and center on the bottle or jar, when the raw milk is purchased and now they can make an informed decision.

      As for the states I’ve gone to as an expert witness to testify against raw milk, there were no safety standards, adequate warning labels, information about home pasteurization requirements as part of the bill. Just a free for all for selling raw milk. So I will help defeat a bill like that. Especially when Ted Beals is brought in to tell his lies about its safety.

      As for California and its warning label, it is totally inadequate and I can’t speak for Claravale because it is only sold in Northern California and I have never seen a bottle of their raw milk, but OPDC’s label is microscopic and on the back of the bottle surrounded by all sorts of other information. It doesn’t stand out so that it is brought to consumers attention. Whole foods prior to discontinuing the sale of raw milk was the only company that had a placard where the milk was sold that warned of the potential dangers.

      • Gordon S Watson

        “microscopic” labelling? I’ll give you ‘microscopic’ … see if you can figure out what the label on the package of birth control pills, says … in 4 point type. Does a stupified teenager grasp the import of being warned that – by taking them – she puts herself in the category of being 8 times more likely for stroke, regardless of age?!

        You want to do something worthwhile in this life, to actually save lives, Mary McBobble-head? Then get out there where the action is … on the Pro_life picket line, outside the God damned abortion mills which MIS-inform women, every day as to RISK. And I don’t mean SPECULATIVE risks. I mean harms and sequelae proven from evidence gathered over a lifetime.

        • Mary McGonigle-Martin

          Wow Gordon, quite a detour you have taken from the topic of raw milk. Birth control pills requires a prescription and all prescriptions come with an extremely detailed pamphlet listing all the dangers. Like I said, wackadoodle # 1. I’ll just refer to you as wacked 1. Or W1.

          • Gordon S Watson

            in Canada, birth control pills are on the retail shelves of pharmacies, to be purchased like the rest of the confections. Any one with ordinary reading comprehension would see my point : whether children … by which I mean teenage females … bother to read the super-fine print, let alone have the intellectual wherewithal to grasp its implications. Of course they don’t. They’ve been brainwashed by Feminism to believe they’re all-grown-up and know everything they’ll ever need to know, at age 15.

            For you to pretend that someone going to the store to pick up a gallon of milk reads the fine print on the package … let alone goes to the website of the Mega-Dairy Processor … shows how out-of-touch you are with retailing. Modern marketing is masterful at MIS-informing consumers. Which is why herdshares are flourishing : the right to use and enjoy one’s private property. Hey! what a concept!!

  • Mary Kay

    Very interesting debate. We personally milk two cows and consume the byproducts of such animals. My grandson has been very ill with UC and almost died last year, 16 yrs old and 80 pounds. The treatment they were doing didn’t want him on milk, any milk. His body would only take up protein in liquid form so when he was going down hill rapidly, I told my daughter he needs the milk, he gained strength and still had his treatments, very low iron so here is what we have had occurs here. We dried the cows up this Spring and his Iron has fallen so fast but no milk until July will be available. I have a herd share woman with Chrones and she was getting Iron infusions and for the first time in 8 yrs doesn’t need it. These are real health benefits in my opinion. The problem we have is my husband and I our in our 60’s and we need a break but then everyone does without milk. My customers trust me and my methods and always come back after our drying off period. I just wish we had more reliable, clean practices so they could go elsewhere when we are down and I too would go elsewhere because we do without for 3 months a year. Sorry to ramble but we love our dairy products and our cows.

    • Zack

      Thank you Mary Kay. It is always a beautiful thing to see the benefits and appreciation from one of Mother Nature’s greatest foods, raw milk.

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee


    You are totally correct and accurate. The same bacteria found in cow manure is found all over the human body That same bacteria is found in raw Breast milk.

    Mary, those bacteria that you associate with cow manure are highly beneficial

    We test cow manure on a routine basis. The state of CA has also done the same. It is extremely rare to find a human pathogen in fresh cows manure. I have tests to shown this to be true. It can be found…. but rare and uncommon.

    Mary…. declaring that manure is found in raw cows milk is not really very informed.

    I would love for you come see our new milk barn. I have offered this to you before. I would love to come get you in French Valley Airport and will fly you to Opdc to see for yourself. It’s a one hour flight.

    When done properly raw milk from cows does not include manure. It does however contain beneficial bacteria.

    How about it ??? You and I share common politics. We would have a blast !!! Our new milk barn has a pre inspection area that allows for really clean milking and the daily test and hold results show this.

    By the way…. Cdfa regs specify the exact font size of our warning print size. The state approves every one of our labels. We hide nothing

    FYI…. Opdc raw milk is fantastic for kids. It prevents death from asthma!!!!

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      So Mark, if pathogenic E.coli found in raw milk doesn’t come from cow shit, then where does it come from? Kinda of odd that they can find the matching fingerprint in the cow shit if it doesn’t come from cow shit.

  • Shawna Barr

    Interesting idea–the label with home-pasteurization information. I’ll chime in for what its worth because we have been doing exactly this with our herdshare from the very beginning, and its worked well. We don’t use jar labels, (not practical and kind of wasteful to give the same information to the same people week after week) but we use placards at our pick up location, hand our members printed materials, and post on our website detailed information about both potential risks and benefits, specifically for children, and instructions for home pasteurization.

    Perhaps its natural for us because our herdshare member base crosses over beyond just the raw milk seekers. We have members who are not specifically seeking “raw”, but rather local, sustainable, non-homogenized, humane, grass-fed, etc. So we want to give everyone information and options. And for us, the pasteurization option is not just a “wink wink”. I actually do have members who home pasteurize and greatly prefer the final product to the UHT pasteurized milk available at the store. It is typically the member who has assessed their situation as “higher risk” who pasteurizes, such as the husband undergoing chemotherapy, or the foster-adoption mom who wants to make whole foods formula.

    In my (albeit limited) experience, providing lots of information and options has only increased our customer base and improved the trust and relationship we have. I am the last mom who is going to tell another mom what risks outweigh what benefits. I’d much prefer to just give her the information, show her what we do, and let her make her own decision for her family.

    All that said, as a producer, the fact that we explain risk and provide home pasteurization information is not a license to be careless. I know full well that the majority of our members do consume the milk raw, and so we do our best to consistently produce the safest raw milk that we can. I hope that a proposed “safe handling” label on raw milk will not imply to the FDA an intention to eschew risk reduction.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Shawna, thanks so much for removing us from the crippling worlds of fear and ideology and transporting us into the world of real-life people who care about the foods they feed their families and make real-life decisions. In that world, people take all kinds of rational and well-considered actions….and don’t always talk about them. Indeed, I wouldn’t be surprised if more of your customers than you imagine are doing their own pasteurization, but don’t talk about it because it isn’t “cool.”

      I have friends who have decided they want the most nutritious milk possible, but they want it pasteurized. They seek out milk from local dairies, ideally non-homogenized, and buy that at the supermarket. If they knew about the availability of milk like yours, and the self-pasteurization option, I suspect that might appeal to them even more than what they are doing now, since they could verify that the milk came from grass-fed cows that were treated humanely (which you can’t easily do with milk you buy in the supermarket from a “local” dairy).

      Thanks also for helping raise an important point about dairy that is frequently overlooked in all the emotion. Running a dairy farm is a money-losing proposition for the vast majority of small outfits today….except for dairies like yours that make it available unpasteurized. The citizen petition filed by RFCC opens the possibility of more dairies being able to legally sell raw milk, and being able to do it in a financially sustainable way. Simply by providing more information, we open up all kinds of possibilities.

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      Thank you Shawna for chiming in. It sounds like you have the model all raw milk farmers should be following. Thank you for being so responsible!!! Educating raw milk consumers about both the pros and cons of consuming raw milk should be the standard to follow with allowing for a kill step through home pasteurization if a parent thinks the risk is too great.

      I hope Liz is reading this and reaches out to you for some ideas to share with other farmers. I wish you had been consulted before they wrote the Citizen’s Petition. I’m sure you would have caught that they left children of the risk list.

      • Shawna Barr

        Hi Mary, that is very kind of you to say. I am reluctant, however, to view us as a model for all raw milk farmers, because there are just so many variations among raw milk farmers–geography, climate, size, distribution range, regulated or unregulated, retail or off-farm–I represent only a small segment of the raw milk producing community. However, because we are very small, locally oriented, and unregulated, I do think that the responsibility to offer information to our members falls more heavily on us than if we were licensed, inspected, regulated, and had retail market privileges.

  • Shawna Barr

    David, you are right about the the financial viability of micro-dairies being dependent on providing the milk raw. In our reality, we serve a very small, but very diverse community. Our community tends to share a common value that they want their local farms back, and they want to access food produced in their own neighborhood. That value is more broad than the value for raw milk, although there is certainly a lot of cross over.

    Pasteurizing our milk for our members would create more problems for us than in would solve, both financially and from a safety standpoint. (I know that sounds counterintuitive, but bear with me). Pasteurizing would eliminate for us all the customers who want raw. You can make raw milk pasteurized in a few minutes in your kitchen, but you can never make pasteurized milk raw again.

    Additionally, while pasteurizing a gallon of milk on your stove is quick and simple (160 degrees for 30 seconds…no boiling required), pasteurizing in any larger quantity, even a batch of 10 or more gallons, is complex and requires special equipment. That equipment, even when designed for small farms, is still cost prohibitive for the very small farm. More importantly perhaps is that pre-bottling pasteurization has to be done right or you actually create more safety problems that you solve. Pasteurization equipment must be sanitized properly or you open yourself up to listeria colonization and other sanitation issues.

    So for farms that are handling such a small amount of milk daily, like under 30 gallons and sometimes much less, keeping equipment simple has its advantages. Making sure our members know what they are receiving, the conditions under which the milk was handled, and letting them decide whether to add the pasteurization step or not has worked well for us.

  • Mary,

    Where does a pathogen like ecoli 0157H7 come from if it does not come from manure ?

    That is a great question and I know the answer. Her name is cow #149. She is now ground organic beef. Two years ago when OPDC declared its own internal recall because we discovered pathogenic ecoli in our routine testing….it came from inside cow #149 and not manure. She had a pathogenic intra udder mastitis infection and we were able to clinically sample it multiple times from inside her udder and under sanitary conditions. That’s a fact. Those samples were even sent to UC Davis and CDFA. The vets generally say that most pathogenic ecoli comes from manure….however that is not the case always. The tests we did on cow # 149 showed extremely low coliforms….but it was positive for ecoli 0157H7.
    This same thing happened with campy not just at OPDC but also another state approved dairy in 2 states.

    This experienced changed our testing policies and protocols. We now test every fresh cow prior to her entry into the milk herd to assure that no cow 149 phenomenon is present.

    Being hard set on one set of beliefs limits the ability to grow ones understanding of a problem and the ability to resolve that problem.

    We also know that feeding distillers grains raise the risk of ecoli shedding. This has been reviewed recently by researchers in the raw milk community.

    Lets open our minds and get on board the progress that has been made.

    Mary….do you advocate that no children eat vegetables or spinach? Those foods sit at the highest risk position on the most risky food pathogen risk list at the FDA ? Lets be reasonable and based in data and science. Ice cream is a very high risk food….it is marketed to kids for sure. Should it carry warnings and never be fed to kids.

    If you want to know where super pathogens came from….look no farther than:

    1. Antibiotic abuse
    2. Depressed immunity of hosts ( that’s us )
    3. True medical neglect to build immune systems in newborns with the super early vaccine overloads and careless abuse of antibiotics on viruses.
    4. And this is a reach….but probably true…GMO’s and animal feeding practices which create a sesspool of pathogens at CAFOs all over America.
    5. Science labs that screw with the genetics of ecoli and fail to control their release.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Mark, you have a magical way of creating the reality you need to see so that you can keep selling milk from an extremely large raw milk dairy. You are the master of spin. The e.coli in the teat came from cow shit. If you really wanted to find out the problem, you wouldn’t have turned the cow into beef without someone examining the teats. Instead you make up your own version of what you want to believe it is. You can’t fool me. I’ve got your MO down to a science.

    • Gordon S Watson

      “a magical way of creating reality” ? ?! here’s the latest example of how press-titutes turn nightmares into received wisdom
      the Big Lie put out by the Centers for Disease Control in STAT magazine = surmise upon surmise headlined with a precise number … I guess that makes it scientific. The experts have spoken, Say no more!

      raw milk and cheese cause 840 times more illnesses than pasteurized products

      • Emma G.

        Yes, this is the article that Mary posted the link to earlier. The original is at . If you look carefully, this article has serious problems. As just one example, they base their conclusion on estimates (see listed as:

        “Estimation of the Incidence Rate of Outbreak-Related Illness and Hospitalization”
        “Estimation of the Underreporting Factor”
        “Estimation of the Underdiagnosis Factor”
        “Estimation of the Under-testing Factor”

        So, this is not based on hard data, but on what they suppose the situation to be. They leave themselves open to accusations that they have exaggerated these numbers based on their feelings about the issue.

        There are other flaws in the study design as well, but I won’t get into them here, as it would take all day.

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          I think you are absolutely correct, Emma, this is a highly flawed study, just like all the others on raw milk and raw milk cheese. Why? Fear mongering is an obvious reason. Related, they want these things to get into Google searches, so when newbies go looking for info on raw milk, this crazy stuff will come up, and hopefully scare people away from seriously considering raw milk. It’s the old “big lie” trick.

  • Mary,

    Name calling and using derogatory labels does not help this conversation.

    Answer this….why is it that you singularly attack raw milk yet you excuse all other foods? You excuse vegetables when they sit at the very top of the most risky foods list at the FDA. Why is that? You ignore ice cream and its deaths….you ignore pasture used cheeses with their deaths….you ignore Pasteurized milk and its deaths…

    I provide safe tested organic raw milk from a rather small dairy when compared to other organic dairies and the average sized dairy in CA. I am a small CA dairy. We meet every USDA standard including the pasture grazing rule and exceed that rule by 100%. We pasture intensively 8 months a year not just the required 4 months under the NOP regs.

    I must really piss you off. The criticism you throw my way….just does not stick. You call it spin. Everyone calls it fact. Even CDFA sends the media our way for responsible comments with regards to raw milk. We are not careless or caviler. We are serious and you are a stone thrower.

    Please come visit and do some home work. You are invited. I would love for you to meet a bunch of moms who’s children have benefits greatly from raw milk. It is time to evolve.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    Most pasteurized dairy products, ice cream in particular, contain polysorbate 80. “Research performed at Georgia State University has raised the idea that polysorbate 80 is not as harmless as is generally believed. The research suggests that the chemical changes the composition of the bacterial population in the intestine, promoting the growth of pro-inflammatory bacteria. These bacteria may cause mild gut inflammation even in people who don’t have Crohn’s disease. The inflammation may then increase the risk of a person developing metabolic syndrome. This syndrome involves a number of unhealthy conditions, which include obesity and insulin resistance. Insulin resistance increases the blood sugar level and is often a precursor to type 2 diabetes”.

    Mary, if you don’t read the above article at least listen to the TEDx talk by Jeroen Raes entitled, “The gut flora: You and your 100 trillion friends”.

    Polysorbate 80 is also used as a surfactant and emulsifier in drugs and vaccines and it is specifically used in chemotherapeutic concoctions to treat brain cancer patients due to its recognized unique ability to break down the blood brain barrier thus allowing the chemo poisons to reach the brain.

    If you want to be pointing fingers folks, ingredients such as polysorbate 80 is where we aught to be pointing them… not a lone bacteria, that for thousands of years been doing what it is designed to!!!

  • Mary. One more thing.

    Other raw dairies in CA and in Penn state have also found intra udder infections that were the source of pathogens.

    Your blatant denial and that pathogens only come from manure is just plain wrong. While I agree, that pathogens can come from manure…when manure is eliminated and pathogens are still found and then testing finds that exact violating pathogen coming from inside of a clean teat….that’s not manure.

    In fact the tests prove this to be true. The pathogen tests performed do not find coliforms ( the indicator of manure ). Because manure does not come from inside udders.

    You are on the passionately political anti-raw milk train. You are not considering science or the great work done by UCDavis, RAWMi or Penn State. These hardworking smart researchers have helped advance raw milk safety. Your drum beat is deaf to this work and is becoming a solo drum beat. More and more researchers and consumers know the truth. I ask that you become educated with the broader understanding of our work. By the way….I give you some of the credit for why I am so motivated to solve the raw milk pathogen puzzle. When considering the larger risk perspective…I believe we have this Gordian Knot mostly solved, given the RAWMI test data and the overwhelming market acceptance.

    You really need to take a broader view of risk and the huge benefits provided by safe clean raw milk.

    Volvos are very safe cars. Boeing makes a very safe aircraft. Does that mean that we never drive cars or fly in aircraft because on rare occasion there are accidents??? Consider this….pasteurization is touted by the FDA as a guarantee of assured safety. How do you answer the question of how 82 people( with hundreds of thousands sickened ) have died after consumption of government assured safety and an FDA warranty of zero risk from pasteurized dairy products in the last 25 years.

    Your bias is showing….

    Please come visit and let’s let history be history and lets build to make a brighter, safer and healthier future. Technology is here and available. We need to support good farmers that care. Always tearing down raw milk is not constructive. I dare you to pick on vegetables. They are the most risky foods in America….for one second….beat up on vegetables.

    Your favorite spin doctor…we call it enlightened education where I come from.


    Where is raw milk???

    Leafy greens…..there it is right at the top. Pasteurized cheeses and ice cream also make the top ten list.
    Both pasteurized dairy products.

    Bias is a really embarrassing thing when it gets exposed. Lets get back to data and solid research. Bias is supposed to be skillfully covered up.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      The article you referenced Mark sates,
      “In recent years, U.S. consumers
      have faced foodborne-illness
      outbreak after outbreak linked to
      contaminated food.”

      Yes, So what do they do… they persist with their narrow focus on food and an essential natural occurring, microbe and proceed to make matters worse with their narrow-minded antagonistic, invasive and toxic so-called food safety protocols. In other words they continue to fuck-up up their and their animals immune systems and the microbes terrain…

  • John Dutcher

    Mary is very embedded in her beliefs and her experience most likely will not let her mind get around her son being so ill,as her obsession with raw milk will not let her get past the fact that e. coli. can be inside the animal, much the same as salmonella appearing in the oviduct of chickens,causing the egg to be contaminated, thereby making folks sick. I know firsthand about kidney failure, I contracted glomerilu nephritis when I was 10 y.o., I am now 63y.o. Everyone thought I was going to die. The blame was placed on just about everything I ate and touched, the “culprit” was never found, somehow, I knew, I was not going to die, personally I blame it on a combination of being exposed to chlordane, carrying creosote soaked fence posts on my bare shoulders and the intense summer sun of Florida. Most likely my immune system was very strong at that time to have survivd that disease. My maternal grandmother really believed in the healing powers of raw milk( due to a situation with my mother when she was a child during the depression) and fed it to me after I became ill, I swear that and some other unconventional foods( they were from Appalachia originally)healed me. Perspective and experience certainly will shape one’s opinions and sometimes overthinking things can cause one’s judgements to become somewhat cloudy.

  • John Dutcher

    I agree!!

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    Hey everyone,

    I am in ,Norway for a few days and I am shocked by the EU news coverage of our American political debacle. It leads the media coverage every where.

    Its all about “Trump Sacks Comey!! Or Trump secretly meets with Russians $”

    We are the worlds scary bad joke!! I swear if asked, I am either from Canada or Switzerland. I used to be a proud yankee when I travel abroad.

    • Emma G.

      Mark, I hereby dub thee an honourary Canadian. Now you just have to remember to use correct spellings, and remember that your Head of State is the Queen, and you’re all set. 🙂

      Politically, you’d fit right in with 99% of the population. As an example, even the Conservative Party of Canada sits to the left of your U.S. Democrats.

      • Gordon S Watson

        actually, no, Emma G. … having lived in the Dominion of Canada for 67 ans, I watched my country degenerate from a white, Christian Country, to a double-minded monstrosity. Major cities like Vancouver / Calgary / Toronto /Montreal, are now multicult-morasses. Meanwhile the RoC ( Rest of Canada) is like unto “Fly-over America” … another nation. The group whom Mark McAffee proclaimed he despises.

        In 1992, the Treasury Board of Canada turned passports into a commodity ; literally, for sale. For instance : There are 2 million holders of Canadian passports living in Hong Kong, many of whom have never set foot on Canadian soil. Today, Canadian citizenship is nothing more than a brand-name, like “Roots”. Perfectly demonstrating the slang “they sold us out” … confer with the A. King James version of the Bible = “for a mess of pottage”.

        As horrible as his performance is since taking office, PRESIDENT Trump still has one thing going for ‘im. He / his advisers know how to talk to his electoral base = white folks. The anti-christ Elite who run Canada, dwell in the globalist fantasy world : but their chain is about to get yanked, same as the 2016 election in the US of A. When Maxime Bernier becomes the new leader of the Conservative Party, the pendulum will swing back the other way … ALL the way back.

  • JHeckman

    To Survive Volatile Market, Some Maine Dairy Farmers Think Small

    Stahlnecker says a decade ago there were just over a dozen Maine farmers selling raw milk — that has now grown to 72. Maine cheese makers have nearly tripled in the past 9 years to more than 90. And the explosive growth continues — she says she is processing many more licenses to sell dairy products.

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee


    As an honorary Canadian i embrace your kind and considerate attitudes. Gordie…. try loving all and serving all. It tends to bring you higher karma points.

  • Gordon S Watson

    Mr McAffee … you’ve missed the essence of what I’ve posted on this forum for nigh-on 6 years = that the Bible is what it says it is, ie. the handbook of government for us white people …Caucasians who are the direct descendants of the man, Jacob whose name God changed to “Israel”. I preach its agricultural and food laws as a way to provoke + remind my kinsmen as to our national heritage. Particularly : to demonstrate the antithetical essence of the 2 systems contending for control of the planet. Babylon against the Kingdom of Heaven. In which scenario, our God says “of all the families of the earth, only Israel have I chosen to be my servant.” That includes me.

    Apparently you’ve chosen a religion which operates on presumption that someone can save himself by doing good. Your immediate problem, being, ‘how to define “good versus evil”, when you’re acting for your own ultimate self-interest’? Like communism, your religion worships an idol called “humanity”. Fatally-flawed theology becomes institutionalized, eventually bringing about the very opposite original intent : for instance = the Roman Catholic practice of selling INDULGENCES. And they’re still in that racket to this day! Such always turns in to a credit / debit racket run by corrupt priesthood. … now writ large on the international scene, as “carbon credits” = a licence to pollute.

    if you really believe that there’s a Big ScoreBoard somewhere up in the sky, keeping track of your good deeds, onus is on you to point us to it. Otherwise, your notion of “karma” is pathetic nonsense … worse. A personal opiate. Go visit the countries which have practiced your false religion, for a few millennia, and consider how well it’s working for them lately.

    Special thanks to First Lady Trump for saying the Lord’s Prayer on the very steps of the national capital, reminding all-concerned in which God we Trust.

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee


    Suffice to say that you and I see the world and gods creations quite differently

    This is a world for all humanity, a world of many colors. White is but one color and it has no value above or beyond any other.
    Racism is a narcissists infatuation with ones own existence to the exclusion and expense of all others. If you want happiness and or real value in this life… try being a human being with a heart and stop preaching racism. It is far below those of us that serve all people regardless of color or faith. Your dark form of hatred is the very reason wars are fought and humanity struggles to progress.

    I just visited the Nobel Peace Prize Institute in Oslo Norway. You should go take an hour and grow some virtue for your injured soul.

    The presidents wife…. what can I say. She sold her soul to the top bidder years ago. She and her clown will be gone shortly.

    Here in Norway, America has become a tragic story. America has slid off the high mountain of moral leadership. America has betrayed unified efforts to fight climate change. America has lost its luster and the EU is deeply troubled. When a pathological liar is your president, it makes you wonder, it makes the world wonder. Perhaps China will emerge as the new moral compass for the world. It sure as hell is no longer America.

    • Gordon S Watson

      Any given day you actually read the Bible – and ALL of it – Mister McAffee, you will get a respectful hearing. But your ignorance is showing. You haven’t got 2 clues to rub together, as to what it says, contrasted with what its enemies have told you it says. Dumbed-down to your level, one of its major themes, is ; when the Messiah of Israel returns to set up his Kingdom ON THE EARTH, ‘all the families of the world will go to Jerusalem’ – its capital, then, in a world governed by 144,000 civil servants, each of whom is descended from the man, Jacob Israel. Citizenship in that Kingdom includes people from every race. God His-self being the original ‘racist’. Another one of its major doctrines, is : It is given unto men, once, to die, then the crisis. When that Day of Judgement comes for you … Having pronounced that you serve gods other than Jesus Christ, you won’t make the cut. Life is so much easier now, since I became a Calvinist!

      the Nobel Peace Prize?! Given to the Magic Negro, mere days after he ascended to the White House? For what? Rewarded by anti-christ globalists for being the racial alien who became the head of White Christian America, exactly as foretold by Deuteronomy 28?

      “Climate change?” Of course the climate is changing, much as it has since the day the rains started falling on Noah’s Ark. One of the best things PRESIDENT Trump has done, is : repudiated the lunacy of ‘anthropogenic global warming’.

      “Red China as the new moral compass for the world”? Siding with Old Karl Marx, who blasphemed “we shake our fist in the face of heaven.” … you put yourself on the side of the domestic enemies of the Republic of the united States of America. And you’ll be rewarded accordingly

  • Ingvar Ingvar

    Chehalis, Washington (State) – are there good sources of raw dairy products in or around Chehalis?
    Stores, Farmers’ Markets etc? This is for a Mon-Tue-Wed visit to Chehalis this month.

    Thanks in advance,
    Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard

  • John Dutcher

    Why do you engage him?

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee


    I engage because I respect David and his work. I engage so that a racist voice is balanced against solid humanitarianism.
    I am actually quite shocked with the blatant writings in a public forum. If racism stands unchallenged…racism is the only voice at the rally.
    I do agree…. probably a 90% waste of my time.

    During a family get together in Moss Norway today, I was approached by at least 15 people ( out of about 40 in attendance) they each asked? How did Trump get elected ? Is America going be ok? With out exception…. everyone loved and missed Obama greatly.

    So do I.

    Gordon… my hope is that your form of religion dies off quickly. It has no place in our modern world. Your ideas promote oppression, segregation, and conflict. Your ideas hurt other people. Your ideas depreciate white people even further. Love and respect among all people is the only way forward on this very small shared earth-ship we all call home.

    May I suggest that you write your words of crazed hatred elsewhere. Raw milk is love…and Is the first food of life.
    There is no pathway, affiliation or alliance between hatred or racism and raw milk.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Mark, you might want to show your Norwegian friends and family this analysis to answer their questions. It’s difficult for foreigners, and even Americans, to fully appreciate that the support for Trump has more to do with the contempt, even hatred, that his supporters have for so-called “liberals.”

      “Much of the conservative news media is now less pro-Trump than it is anti-anti-Trump. The distinction is important, because anti-anti-Trumpism has become the new safe space for the right.

      “Here is how it works: Rather than defend President Trump’s specific actions, his conservative champions change the subject to (1) the biased ‘fake news’ media, (2) over-the-top liberals, (3) hypocrites on the left, (4) anyone else victimizing Mr. Trump or his supporters and (5) whataboutism, as in ‘What about Obama?’ ‘What about Clinton?’

      “For the anti-anti-Trump pundit, whatever the allegation against Mr. Trump, whatever his blunders or foibles, the other side is always worse.

      “But the real heart of anti-anti-Trumpism is the delight in the frustration and anger of his opponents. Mr. Trump’s base is unlikely to hold him either to promises or tangible achievements, because conservative politics is now less about ideas or accomplishments than it is about making the right enemies cry out in anguish.”

      So, the more outraged many of us become about Trump’s increasingly outrageous actions, the more pleasure his supporters get. It’s not a very sophisticated or enlightened strategy, but it’s been working for our Fuhrer. It’s likely to keep working, at least for the short term, since Trump won’t soon run out of craziness.

      • Gordon S Watson

        last week in British Columbia, we went through a provincial election. Below is a letter which I emailed to the winner of the riding in which I live = the Green Party candidate.
        for purposes of this forum, what’s worth noting, is = the URL inserted in it links to a YouTube video of Mark McAffee speaking at the University of Victoria, in September of 2014. But when you click on the URL, you get a warning from Google, “The site ahead contains dangerous programs” … and a button to click to get “Back to safety”

        So Mister Gumpert was right, after all = his dire warning about censorship under the TrumpReich has come to pass. What fools we were to assume “it can’t happen here”. !
        Friday May 12 2017

        Adam Olsen, Member of the Legislature for North Saanich Sidney

        Subject : Campaign for REAL MILK in British Columbia

        You will perhaps recall our brief conversation, during the Chamber of Commerce bus tour of businesses on the Peninsula in which you agreed with me that raw milk for human consumption ought to be de-criminalized.

        I would like you to arrange for officials of the Ministry of Health ; Ministry of Agriculture ; Legal Services Branch Ministry of Attorney General, to meet with me and several associates. We want to discuss what it would take for us to satisfy concerns about risk to the public health, so we can carry on dairying without interference.

        We want them to appreciate that – since raw milk dairying is being done perfectly legally in most of the states of the US of A, and England – there is no good reason why we cannot do it here. Our trade association already practices a protocol proven to supply REAL MILK, safely. By the term ‘ REAL MILK ’ we mean : whole fresh, pure raw milk from cows or goats or sheep or water buffalo kept in humane conditions and fed with the highest-quality diet in order to produce milk with a nutritional profile not found in “homo milk” on retail store shelves.

        We are not at all interested in challenging the dairy supply quota scheme ; rather, we want to avoid the trouble and expense of litigation. The goal of discussion will be = acknowledgement of our position, which is : according with the right to use and enjoy our private property dairy products produced by animals we own, intended to be used and enjoyed strictly by ourselves, are legitimate . Furthermore ; since the Milk Marketing Board has failed to discharge its duty to facilitate supply so as to meet demand for raw milk, we have the right to associate in order to feed ourselves … especially … co-operate in farming to get milk of a particular quality which is not otherwise obtainable. Since milk from our herdshares never enters-in to commerce, then we are exempt from the Milk Industry Act requirement that it must be cooked before we drink it. The simple, immediate solution will be for someone with authority to put on official stationery the statement that a dairy convened as a jointly-owned asset, ie. a “herdshare’, falls under the “personal use exemption” policy of the BC Farm Industry Review Board.

        In preparation for such a meeting, it would be worthwhile for all-concerned to familiarize themselves with this issue, by viewing the video available at URL :

        which was a seminar given by Mark McAffee at the University of Victoria, in September 2014. Mr McAffee runs Organic Pastures Dairy where 500 cows, produce raw milk for human consumption in California.

        Gordon S Watson

        10490 Resthaven Drive Sidney British Columbia V8L 3H7

        telephone 250 65 4 0423 email

        • Lynn_M

          Is this the presentation by Mark at the University of Victoria that you were referring to?

          • Gordon S Watson


            yes, that is the URL to the raw milk presentation by Mark McAffee which I refer to in my letter to my MLA. An excellent talk – nearly 2 hours – covering a lot of ground.

            Curiously, when I call it up, I get a big red warning screen from Google

          • Lynn_M

            Gordon, when search on Google for: Mark McAfee University of Victoria Raw Milk, I get no warning screen from Google, just a number of hits for the url I gave before.

          • Emma G.

            I don’t get a warning either, Lynn and Gordon. Just the website. And I tried out the link with three different browsers (Chrome, I-E, Firefox). Does anyone else get a warning?

    • Gordon S Watson

      If my theology doesn’t sit well with you, Mark McAffee, take it up with the Author of those Scriptures. what I post on David Gumpert’s forum, are not “my” ideas … they’re doctrines set out in the Bible. You could look it up. With very rare exception, those who inveigh against me, have not even the basic grasp of what they’re talking about. 40 years’ experience at this kind of thing, taught me, that = First and last = guys like you hate Jesus Christ and will use any and every half-baked pretext for expressing that hatred. I remind you that the pollution of this forum with primitive partisanship, started last summer when you manifested symptoms of Trump Derangement Syndrome. f you sincerely want to dis-engage, then quit folding your simpering smarmy hypocritical religious bilge as a stream-of-consciousness line inserted in to something about REAL MILK. I saw Bucky Fuller in person … the genius who coined the term “space-ship Earth”. He taught us that – “human beings can learn at any age”. His theme in 1967 on the lecture circuit, was : “UN-learing” … i.e.. that people have to Un-learn that which they think they know, which is incorrect, in order to learn what is true. You can start by UN-learning your sickening habit of passive -aggressive-ness = pretend solicitation for goodwill, meanwhile secretly despising those who differ. Example gratia : Go look up your comment on this forum, sneering at those in the Rust Belt.

      Back in the ( so-called) Pro-Life thing) confronted by a couple of Hell’s Angels [ wearing their colours] who wanted to run me off the public sidewalk, I made up my mind not to let the idiots have the last say. Same in this forum with lib-tards. So I won’t be taking my words elsewhere, as long as Mr Gumpert allows genuine free speech.

      How ironic that you told us you visited the Israeli nation-state. And you’ve posted your opinion on this forum, to do with the way the Jewish Supreme-cists do things there. Where citizenship predicated on Race is written in to its Constitution. The Republic of the US of A was confederated as a country for white people … yet 200 years later, me reminding Americans of our heritage, the Law of the God of Israel … is “hate”!

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    In CA we are losing certified organic dairies. A dear friend was lost last week. Why? Because of tolerated corruption within the USDA nop program and the refusal to enforce the 120 day pasture rule against the O dairy in CO. Horizon is the big milk mafia in the room.

    I am very proud of my son Aaron, he has taken up internet battle against Big O in CO and has begun the massive effort to coordinate the energies of thousands of legitimate pasture compliant organic dairies against Big O with its CAFO and 15000 cows. Prices paid for organic milk to farmers has plummeted and has forced many out of business.

    Why?? Because the usda and certifiers are taking money from Big O and have sold their integrity

    Let’s see when there is a national consumer strike against any brand that sources from Big O Dairies.

    Consumers are powerful and we will use our relationships to help all organic dairies as they fight to survive the tsunami wave of illegal milk from from Big O with no pastures.

  • John Dutcher

    One can dissertate with gordy till the cows come home and he will “forever be stuck” with his arrogant racism. I actually feel pity for him!

  • Emma G.

    Getting back to the original topic of this post, I disagree completely with this approach. Labelling is not the answer. It promotes the myths that (1) all raw milk is equal, and (2) raw milk is inherently dangerous (to quote John Sheehan of the FDA).

    There is a better approach.

    As a bit of history, in 1997, the UDSA-FSIS helped meat and poultry slaughter and processing plants develop and implement HACCP programs. As a result, E.coli outbreak rates related to meat and poultry then fell 42% over the next 7 years.

    Why do we insist on believing that there is no way to make raw milk production safer, when we can clearly see that HACCP made meat production safer?

    The alternative to labelling is for there to be national standards for raw milk production, similar to the system that other nations such as England have with the FSA standards. I have a copy of the FSA guide for raw milk producers right here on my desk (thank you, Gordon, for giving me a copy). The title is “Milk Hygiene on the Dairy Farm: A Practical Guide for Milk Producers” and along with it is an information sheet on “Registering to Sell Raw Drinking Milk (RDM).”

    Gordon can tell you more, as he has a wealth of information from an associate who visited with a UK raw milk farmer last year. If I recall correctly, this farmer is making a living from milking 6 cows, this shows that the UK system does NOT impose hardship on the small farmer.

    This is the alternative: Working with Federal governments to develop national raw milk production standards, which would include resources for farmers, education of farmers in safe raw milk production, registration of producers, an inspection program, and bacterial testing standards.

    If the UK can do it, so can the US and Canada.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Emma, this labeling proposal isn’t an either-or proposition with regard to HACCP programs. The labeling proposal is meant as an alternative to the existing prohibition on interstate sales/shipment of raw milk. Interstate sales/shipment of raw milk is currently prohibited because it is considered by regulators to be unsafe. The labeling provides a strong warning and instructions for self pasteurization, as a means to address regulators’ safety concerns. Other safety measures, like HACCP programs and other standards will certainly be welcome by many farmers and consumers.

      • Emma G.

        David, this is the practical alternative to the interstate prohibition. Not labelling and home pasteurization, but training and testing.

        Fluid raw milk is no more dangerous than leafy greens, home-cooked chicken, or home-cooked hamburger. It is a low risk food. What is disingenuous about the CDC studies like the most recent one is that they lump raw cheese (both factory-produced and homemade queso fresco illegally pedalled in immigrant communities) together with raw fluid milk and claim that these three very different products are being consumed by the exact same population. Not true. Also when they use an ancient 2006/2007 survey to estimate current consumption rates Also it is highly misleading to compare raw milk to pasteurized milk. QMRA studies show that raw milk is low risk, but pasteurized milk is ultra-low risk, much lower risk than multiple other foods. If you compared most other foods to pasteurized, you’d get the same results of comparatively “higher risk”.

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          The problem you face is in implementing any kind of training and testing programs is that no regulators will work with you, with RAWMI, with anyone connected with raw milk. So you’ll have to wait till hell freezes over to have any hope of such ideas happening. Our petition doesn’t require the regulators to work with us ongoing, but rather simply to end the ban on interstate sales/shipments by using labeling–and in the process comply with the new presidential order to reduce regulation. The labeling is designed as an immediate solution to regulators’ concerns about safety.

          • Emma G.

            “The problem you face is in implementing any kind of training and testing programs is that no regulators will work with you, with RAWMI, with anyone connected with raw milk. ”

            Has anyone asked them yet? If so, then please share the details of which office, which official, who contacted them, what was asked, and when.

          • David Gumpert David Gumpert

            You haven’t been reading this blog. I’ve written numerous times here about refusal of federal regulators to speak to me and others. Mark McAfee has filed several citizen petitions to the FDA and failed even to receive a response. I’ve had to file Freedom of Information requests to obtain info from FDA and CDC. That doesn’t mean you can’t try. I’d welcome learning what you come up with.

          • Emma G.

            1) Mark – are your petitions posted somewhere online? I would like to review the content in light of what David has posted here. I’m interested in learning about what you specifically asked for in your petitions.

            2) David, of course one has to file FOI requests to get information – that is a given unless the record has already been proactively disclosed by the government body (as many politicians’ travel expenses now are). But that is just a routine administrative process, not an operational issue. It is likely an entirely different department.

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    14 Dairies have very successfully done this already across Canada and the USA.
    Can you say… RAWMI Common Standards and RAMP

  • Emma G.

    I agree, Mark. And, not just 14. There are additional dairies which follow RAWMI Common Standards and have RAMPs and SSOPs and have chosen for various reasons not to become “RAWMI listed.” I know, because I worked last summer as a milker at one of these. This is a 6-cow micro-dairy, proving that implementing RAWMI procedures does not break the bank account for the small farmer.

    Another farm I know did it with one cow being carefully hand-milked in the field. Before RAWMI training, the one SPC test was 25,200 with 2 coliforms. SPC tests after RAWMI training have consistently been 2200 or lower with zero coliforms most of the time. And, milk is tested for the 4 “big bad bug” pathogens and always tests clean.

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee


    That’s awesome. And you are right. A raw milk
    Producer does not have to be RAWMI Listed to make great raw milk. They just need to embrace self enforced high standards with testing

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    Any bets on when congress moves to impeach ? Sharing highly classified intell with the Russians?????
    Can’t make this stuff up!! His own right wing are running from him now

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Mark, there are no secrets from friends, right? Besides, Trump remains the Republicans’ meal ticket, the only guy able to get votes big time. They aren’t going anywhere.

    • Gordon S Watson

      “highly classified information” ? oh, you mean like your gal Hilary, when Sect. of State, having an utterly ILLEGAL server in her own home, which was about as secure as Swiss Cheese , so that utmost secret documents were readily available to anyone with the expertise and motive to access them ? Called TREASON.

      I’ll take your bet = I’ll put up one silver US genuine silver dollar pre-1965 to one Susan B Anthony brass token pre-tend “dollar” you put up that Congress does not impeach PRESIDENT Trump at all.

      you want EVIDENCE of leaks ? … start with the murder of Seth Rich, who sent over 44,000 emails from inside the Democratic Party machine, to Wikileaks. Which – of course – was known to the FBI during the election. Firing Comey was PRESIDENT Trump getting around to draining the swamp.

      • David Gumpert David Gumpert

        This from a well-connected Israeli site that has been hostile to Obama-Clinton and friendly to Trump:

        “…the classified information concerned Israel’s capabilities for intercepting operational communications and signals. This branch is one of the most sensitive and secret in the field of military intelligence. Possession of this advanced capability makes it possible to monitor the most clandestine military operations, without leaving any clue to the tracker. This interception technology is also capable of seriously disrupting the military operations of an enemy.
        Until President Trump shared this information with Lavrov, the Russian military and intelligence services were not aware that Israel possessed this intelligence technology, or that it was operational. Neither were the Russians aware that Israel had let the Americans know about it. They learned all this for the first time when Lavrov and Kislyak talked to the president in the White House last Wednesday.
        DEBKAfile’s sources add: The US president’s leak of one of Israel’s most closely guarded intelligence secrets has cast a cloud on his visit next week and is likely to lead to changes in his itinerary….Israel officials judge the exposure of this secret technology as seriously damaging to Israel, the United States and the war on terror. An intelligence source commented Tuesday night: ‘Many years of hard work have gone down the drain.'”’s-interception-skills-to-Lavrov

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    “Bertrand Russell warned: “Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.”

    “Be careful with this path, America. Because once it is taken, there may be no turning back.”

    This disturbing trend of calling for severe punishment, including physical violence, against people refusing to comply with, not only the “vaccine paradigm” but also the “raw milk is dangerous paradigm” is indicative of an age old problem driven by human ego and a pompous hell-bent desire to impose ones belief on others…

    Indeed, an age-old problem driven by institutionalized doctrines of science that suggests that the facts are settled and that there is no room for debate or freedom of choice.

    I recently read this comment, “If atheistic evolution is true, the word ‘unnatural’ can have no meaning!”
    This explains a lot considering a recent article in the journal Pediatrics calling on health professionals to stop saying that breastfeeding is natural.

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    Is there more to this story? Something is amiss

    Sent from my iPhone

    • Lynn McGaha Lynn McGaha

      Here is a none-sensationalized article about the situation: s

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      Most counties and townships across North America have long standing ordinances (rarely enforced) that allows them to impose herbicide and pesticide spraying of crops and animals… So what’s more noxious and harmful, the so-called weeds or the chemicals used to control them? What about all the insects, aquatic life and birds that are subjected to this toxic, narrow-minded approach to food production and who is going to protect neighboring framers from the genetically engineered plants that complement the increased use of weed sprays such as roundup?
      As landowners and producers of organic food it is imperative that we have the option to refuse to use these toxic interventions. If we lose that option then Monsanto and the likes have indeed been granted a license by governments to pollute and we can kiss organic food goodbye.

  • Lynn McGaha Lynn McGaha

    Go to Scroll down to page 8 of Summary of Action Taken to item 1.13 at 2:30 pm. Weed Ordinance Violation Discussion.

    Sherman County is where Azure Farms is located. It appears that Azure Farms has done a very poor job of controlling noxious weeds over the last 18 years and seeds from the weeds are impacting surrounding wheat farmers and a neighboring certified seed grower. The county tried to reach out to Azure Farms and were rebuffed. However, Oregon law can impose a herbicide spraying program and quarantine on Azure, at Azure’s expense, and that possibility is imminent. The Sherman County Court hearing regarding this violation is at 4 pm on May 17 in the school gymnasium. Want to fly up there for it?

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    Nice digging David…. the Israelis are the spy secrecy experts. To betray them will be a deep injury to relations even though that injury will be covered up to never show weakness to enemies.

    CNN and other media are covering the first public talk about Pence as our next president. The republicans need a controllable, adult, non embarrassing puppet in the Whitehouse to get anything done. Mrs Pense will also be a respected First Lady and actually live in the WH.

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    I have a real soft spot in my heart for Azure Standard. When Opdc sold its raw milk in Oregon stores many years ago ( with and under a letter of agreement signed by ODA ) it was the Azure owner that showed up at the fight to continue raw milk sales. The ODA suffedly after months of pet food raw dairy sales, decided that they had changed their minds…. what was once legal had become illegal. It was Azure that showed up to argue for our rights. It was a Kangaroo Court. Of course the ODA won.

    In my experience disengagement tends to bring bad outcomes. It is far better to cut off issues early and seek resolutions in cooperation. I hope Azure can fix their predicament. I do not see how the ODA can force the use of a usda prohibited pesticide if they are usda certified organic I would think that usda law would superceed local authority. A forced loss of organic cert would have huge damages to be paid to Azure.

    Good luck to them.

  • David Gumpert David Gumpert

    A pretty decent account of the new citizen petition on raw milk labeling, from Food Safety News:

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    Nice little piece at FSN.

    It is too bad that FSN continues to be biased in their reporting. Why didn’t they call rawmi and ask exactly why it is that families are choosing raw milk… more and more?

    The grand choice is between an allergic food and a food that heals and prevents allergies. A non digestible food and a food that is easily digested by nearly everyone.

    A choice between a food that has killed 82 Americans in the last 30 years and food that has not killed anyone!!

    A choice between a food that bankrupts farmers and a food that sustains farmers and their closely connected consumers.
    When will FSN learn they they should not follow the tracks of FOX News. The truth must be told if you are going to be taken seriously


  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    How can building billions of dollars worth of Blackhawk Helicopters in Saudi Arabia be any good for American Job creation ?
    He just exported American jobs to a country that has a horrible human rights history and set of policies.
    Most of the 9-11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia.

  • Gordon S Watson

    oh, get serious … surely you don’t accept the Official Version of 9-11? You’re a much smarter man than that, Mister McAffee … when you want to be. You prefer to believe that 19 cameljockeys directed from their guru sitting with his laptop, in a cave half way ’round the world, conspired to outwit the combined forces of the greatest military power on earth ? Educate thy-self. Start with the FACT that Project Vigilant Guardian was a war-game that played out that scenario, 6 months earlier. Deal with the FACT that no airliner struck the Pentagon. Your immediate problem being : where did the debris go from the towers? In hours, nearly all of the material from two, 100 story buildings, which had taken years to build = vanished. Dr Judy Wood’s explanation is better than any other theory

  • Mark McAfee Mark McAfee


    Please take a long walk in some bright sunshine and get some fresh air.

  • Mark McAfee Mark McAfee

    The identities of the cameljockies is not in question…most were Saudi Arabian.

  • Gordon S Watson

    I strongly recommend you stick to your area of expertise, Mister McAffee – that being = the science to do with raw milk, especially : politics of the Campaign for REAL MILK. When it comes to the FACTS about what happened on Sept 11 2001, you’re a child. The “identities” of the pretended perpetrators, being the most laughable part of the official Myth of 9~11.

    I do agree with your statement : “The truth must be told if you are going to be taken seriously” a good starting point, for your self-education on 9~11 ( you brought it up) …. , would be = the video testimony of a fireman who was in the building when Tower One collapsed. . 100 stories of steel, aluminum concrete entire contents of the building came down in its own footprint!? Yet, minutes later, a beam of bright sunshine broke into the space where they were beneath the rubble. Your biggest challenge is, explaining where all that debris went. You’d be better off not mentioning 9~11 on this forum, ’til you get a grip on the FACTS … quit parroting the nonsensical official Myth

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    Emma G.

    The FTCLDF has my current RAW Butter FDA petition.
    I decided to drop my raw milk petition because of the response the FDA gave me two years ago. The response was outrageous. They denied peer reviewed science. They denied everything. It was the most obsurd thing I have ever seen in writing. It was baseless and rather crude.

    Instead of going to court and doing battle over raw milk, I made the strategic decision to retreat and make an attack in an all together different angle.
    Knowing that the FDA will never agree to change based on a Citizens Petition and knowing that the Citizens Petition was just a pathway to get into a federal court…. I wanted to win a fight. Raw butter has a perfect history of safety ( near perfect anyway ). All of the official CDC Cdfa and FDA data shows no illnesses from retail purchase raw butter. The FDA’s own studies show that raw butter is innately safe. The moisture, ph, salt content, prohibit pathogen growth.

    Clearly Judge Johnson screwed up in 1987 by including raw butter with raw milk when she moved to prohibit raw milk in interstate commerce. Raw butter should have been treated the same as aged raw cheese and allowed.

    This is an argument that can be won in court. I will see if I can post the Citizens Petition online in the coming weeks. I am still in Denmark

    It is a huge document and had some great work done by the lawyers at FTCLDF. Awesome stuff.

    In my view…. we will take Cfr 1240.61 apart brick by brick…piece by piece. Raw butter first then safe raw milk later. The FDA classes then different raw milk is class 1. Raw butter is either class 3 or 4 depending on which schedule you look at.

    My raw butter petition gets submitted to the federal courts soon. It has been sitting st the FDA for more than a year. They don’t take action until sued.
    That’s the speed at the FDA. Nice guys.


  • Amanda

    I think the self-pasteurizing label is a great idea! Big Ag won’t like it though, because for them it’s about competition, not safety.

Leave a Reply

You can use these HTML tags

<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>