Raw Milk and Guns: How Do We Turn Back the Clock on Massacres?

In Iowa, more than a dozen public health, medical, and veterinary organizations are lining up for their annual ritual of killing legislation that would legalize the sale of unpasteurized milk directly from dairy farms to consumers. These opponents say they want to protect individuals, especially children, from becoming ill or dying from raw milk, even though there hasn’t been a single recorded death associated with legally available raw milk in the U.S. for more than 15 years.

Where were all these upstanding public health, medical and veterinary professionals a year ago, when the Iowa legislature was in the process of passing legislation designed to strip away various restrictions on gun ownership, including one requiring parental approval for anyone under the age of 21 having access to a handgun? Under the new legislation signed into law last April, any Iowa child of any age can possess a handgun, the only proviso being they be under the “direct supervision” of a parent or guardian. There is one stipulation for the parent or guardian supervisor: “the person”.must not be intoxicated or impaired by alcohol or drugs” (I kid you not).

I raise my question not to promote raw milk, for once, but rather to highlight the legislative momentum the pro-gun lobby has created over the last decade, to overrun any and all public health and other concerns about widespread access to guns of all types. There’s just no comparison, to me, in the dangers from raw milk and from nearly unregulated access to guns that has developed in the U.S.–all we have to do is follow the news to appreciate what’s happening. The nearly unstoppable momentum to eliminate any and all restrictions on guns means we have a situation where it’s now much easier for Iowa’s children to legally get their hands on guns than on unpasteurized milk.

Iowa isn’t alone in stripping away even minimal existing gun restrictions. It is one of many states that over the last decade have focused on making it easier for anyone, including children and nut cases of all types, to get their hands on guns. Only nine states now retain discretion over whether to grant permits to carry concealed weapons, compared with 29 such states at the start of the 1980s.

The easing of state restrictions on gun ownership has occurred in tandem with an easing of federal restrictions over the last 30 years. A law designed to reduce the sale of assault weapons instituted in 1994 was allowed to expire in 2004, and efforts to re-start it have failed. Federal background checks, first begun in 1968, and reaffirmed in 1993 legislation, have been watered down by not requiring checks of individuals who buy guns at gun shows. A year ago, President Trump signed legislation to lift restrictions on making guns available to the mentally ill. There’s more to come from Congress: In the offing is legislation that would ease restrictions on purchase of gun silencers and armor-piercing bullets, as well as easing of restrictions on carrying concealed and non-concealed weapons.

In the wake of the latest school shooting massacre in Florida, I’ve seen a number of super-gun-rights advocates inquire on Facebook about why it is that America didn’t seem to have the kind of mass gun killings 30 and 40 years ago that it is experiencing ever more frequently these days. The implied answer to the question, which many of these advocates’ Facebook friends articulate, is that during the good old days there was less glorification of violence and sex than there is now, along with less drug use, more serious family values, and overall, more respect by children of their elders.

One factor they neglect to mention as a possible explanation for the explosion of school and other massacres is that we have much less regulation of guns today than we had in those “good old days” 30 and 40 years ago. Indeed, the frequency of massacres seems to increase nearly in lockstep with the discarding of the old restrictions.

Would we have as many mass killings if those old-time gun limits were still in place? It’s difficult to get informed predictions, since there has been a prohibition on research into gun violence as a public health problem for many years. So, as far as the medical and public health establishments are concerned, raw milk is more of a public health menace than gun violence. Indeed, there’s only one way to know for sure what would happen if we reimposed minimal gun restrictions, and that’s to go back to those good old days, when minimal gun restrictions were in place, and life was pretty much massacre-free.

64 comments to Raw Milk and Guns: How Do We Turn Back the Clock on Massacres?

  • As a Gun shooter and owner, I totally agree that background checks, waiting periods, proof of gun safe ownership and perhaps mandatory training or registration must be required. It is insane that guns can become available to children and the mentally unstable. With a nut job in the Whitehouse with Russian Spies running hog wild around our country, the NRA has become so powerful. What happened to the Republican Party.

  • Gordon S Watson

    saying “there’s been a prohibition on research into gun violence as a public health problem for many years” is ridiculous. Nothing stops anyone from doing such work. What galls gun-grabbers, is : when they do get the facts, hard evidence proves = availability of guns prevents crime = in white communities, that is. Gun grabbers absolutely do NOT want to face conclusions of studies assessing homicides and race… oh no! If you want to take the topic of this forum off into that territory, Mr Gumpert, Let’s see you muster the integrity to acknowledge who it is who shoots whom.

    • Steve Wilson

      Gordon, or who ever you are, you are a case. You can’t really believe the stuff you say on this blog.

      • Gordon S Watson

        Steve : oh, but I do “really believe the stuff I say on this blog”. I guess where I started to go “wrong” … according to your lights … was, studying the statistics generated by the federal govt. of the US of A, re demographic analysis of criminals vis-a-vis their crimes. When I got through “the Color of Crime”, I was ‘beyond redemption’ … as far at the Lib-Tards are concerned. You, perhaps?

        Your homework for tonight, Mr Wilson, is : find out who it is who rapes whom, in Ham-merica. The FBI itself says 38,000 white women get raped every year by Negroes. Regardless of race, if you genuinely care about your women-folk, you’ll educate them as to what the Bible says about a woman resisting rape. Then you’ll give them each a handgun + teach them how to use it. There isn’t a jury in the land who’d convict a woman for using a gun to defend herself against a rapist. YOU CAN’T RAPE A .38

        former Attorney General Holder said “let’s have an honest discussion about Race”, so let’s do it, in conjunction with THE single outstanding factor to do with gun control – RACE

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    David, You might want to go back and review your insightful article written on December16, 2012 where you asked this key question, “If our culture can produce neighbors capable of the bestiality that occurred in Newtown, then what is the next rung down the ladder?”
    http://www.davidgumpert.com/what-a-fix-weve-gotten-ourselves-into-around-mass-slaughters

    I agree that gun handling restriction need to be updated and improved upon but there are other factors that need to be considered with respect to escalating violence in your country and around the world for as you suggest in the above article, “Most of us don’t want to try to answer that last question, because the possibilities just become darker and darker”.

    From 1900 to today there have been well over 200,000,000 people murdered worldwide by governments alone. Humanity has had a serious problem with violence, including the state sanctioned variety, and it is all to easy to say that if only we could restrict the availability potential weapons of whatever type, then life as we know it would improve. It won’t… because the weapons themselves just like raw milk are not the root of the problem…

    Apart from the increasing availability of violent films, video games, religious factions that promote/condone violence and the teaching of children in schools that they are but a product of a mindless universe, the one thing that the media tends to overlook is the effect of psychiatric drugs and or drugs that have a mood altering effects (there are many) on individuals. Indeed, as you suggest, “So, as far as the medical and public health establishments are concerned, raw milk is more of a public health menace than gun violence”… Yes, and more of a menace then prescription drug related violence!!!

    Here are just some current facts to consider with respect to the disturbing number of mass shootings and mass murders by people who were either on, or who just recently came off of, psychiatric medications.
    http://www.wnd.com/2018/02/media-ignoring-1-crucial-factor-in-florida-school-shooting/

    The article states, “Whether we like to admit it or not, it is undeniable that when certain people living on the edge of sanity take psychiatric medications, those drugs can – and occasionally do – push them over the edge into violent madness. Remember, every single SSRI antidepressant sold in the United States of America today, no matter what brand or manufacturer, bears a “black box” FDA warning label – the government’s most serious drug warning – of “increased risks of suicidal thinking and behavior, known as suicidality, in young adults ages 18 to 24.” Common sense tells us that where there are suicidal thoughts – especially in a very, very angry person – homicidal thoughts may not be far behind. Indeed, the mass shooters we are describing often take their own lives when the police show up, having planned their suicide ahead of time”.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      As I suggested in the blog post five years ago, and suggest in this one, we have a public health problem. Lots of people speculate about things like antidepressant and antipsychotic drugs as being a cause of the shootings, but no one can produce solid evidence about it. Speculation and excuses don’t help the situation. A big part of the reason we don’t know is we don’t want to know. As I point out near the end of my current blog post, and I’ve pointed out here before, we have a ban on researching the causes of gun violence as a public health problem.

      As our prez might say, everyone knows we have a public health problem, a problem akin to that of Iraq or Pakistan, where sick individuals become suicide bombers, blowing themselves up to kill as many people as possible. Our rampaging mass murdering shooters just use guns instead of blowing themselves up. And we as a society keep our heads buried in the sand about the causes.

      • John Dutcher

        This is John’s wife, I am appalled at the cavalier attitude of many medical professionals that drug our children with add/adhd, and psych drugs before their brains are even mature! The effects of these drugs on brain chemistry are profound, we have an adult friend who has just spent 3 weeks in a mental health facility for addiction (by prescription) and to get her off of buspar (an anti depressant) that was prescribed to her for 20 years without any of her Drs ever asking her if she had had a psych evaluation. The drugs almost ruined her marriage and her life and she was an adult, not a child when she was prescribed these dangerous drugs with no counsel, so one can only imagine the effects of these types of drugs on an immature brain. No mention ever about feeding people well. The most profound thing I have ever read about mental health was from Weston Price, from Nutrition and Physical Degeneration: “Thinking is a biological function” I personally believe that drugging people is a cause of violence, and especially children.

        • David Gumpert David Gumpert

          Your point about drugging kids is well taken. I think we need to confront it, deal with it. In the meantime, if so many kids are on various drugs, should we be making it easier for them to get hold of guns? That’s what’s going on now.

          This kid in Florida who did his rampage apparently had been investigated by local agencies a number of times. They visited his home. Knew he was a big risk. From all I can tell, he wasn’t violating any Florida gun laws by buying an assault rifle and ammo. These agencies are increasingly sensitive to charges that they are infringing on parental rights and such, so they often back off in such situations.
          https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting.html

      • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

        Speculation??? I don’t think so David,

        When I was in the hospital for kidney stones there was an elderly man that came into my room who had had a heart attack. He was a friendly and amicable individual until a few hours later when he became paranoid and violent, at which point two male nurses were called in to help hold him down while he was placed in a straight jacket. After he was restrained a nurse came in and told the other nurse attending the patient to remove him from his heart medication (doctors orders) because his doctor stated that the drug was likely the problem. Sure enough he was back to normal in a few short hours.

        I also had a neighbor and good friend of mine who when placed on high cholesterol medication began to experience suicidal thoughts. When he approached the pharmacist about his concerns he was told that that was one of its side effects to the medication he was prescribed and that he should stop taking it. Needless to say he gave his doctor a peace of his mind for not informing him of this fact.

  • John O'Donnell

    It is a fact that areas of the United States with the highest private ownership of guns have the lowest crime rates. So why do gun grabbers always want to take guns away from responsible citizens who actually have a positive influence on local crime rates? However there is another issue that most do not talk about. That is the fact that we are engaged in a war right here in the United States. The enemy is embedded right here. This is an information war, waged in our classrooms where generations now of students have been warped by cultural Marxism. The press is almost virtually owned by only about 6 corporations. Americans who do watch TV and other entertainment are being subjected to massive lies, brainwashing and indoctrination. The press in short is the enemy of an independent United States. These shootings that I’m assuming prompted this article; are virtually all produced by hidden hands. We have a massive secret underground enemy right here that are engineering these mass shooting events, with the press as their accomplice. Has anyone ever listened to JFK’s secret societies speech?

  • John Dutcher

    David,
    These young folks that are committing these heinous crimes are mentally ill, I’d wager that this young man has probably been on mind altering drugs since he was around 6 or 7 y.o. There are more children on drugs like Ritalin, Ativan,etc. these days than there are children who are NOT on any psych type drugs. Add in that a lot of these kids today are kinda on their own many hours a day, both parents working, some two jobs( the family unit started falling apart with the “industrial revolution”, another story)just to make ends meet, add in unlimited social media time, not many have to work for anything they receive. Many are raised to be so self aware that they seem to lose empathy( effects of the drugs?) in the process too. It IS certainly a multi faceted problem, But I and almost all my friends grew up with guns, pistols and rifles in the home, we never shot anyone, but we were taken hunting, saw death first hand at a young age, we slaughtered animals for food, saw death firsthand again, as a child. Society today tries to protect children from things such as I just spoke of, but is it really doing them any favors?? I knew at a very young age: when something died, it was not going to get up and move anymore. Movies show people getting shot twenty times, next scene, the perpetrator is standing with handcuffs on, but not even bleeding( I know it is only a movie, but children today seem to have a problem distinguishing reality form fantasy, like I said it is very complicated, for sure!! Of course there is one more thing I and many others had back then, getting your ass whipped when you did wrong!! The fear of that kept many of us from acting out on things we talked about doing, hell, in those days you might get whipped by the neighbor and again by DAD when the neighbor told him what you did. Too much of, Johnny sit down and lets talk about this, how about a couple swats on his ass when he is two, then he might LISTEN better when he is 16. Actually David, when I was young guns were much easier to purchase than they are now,when I was 10 y.o. I could ride my bike to the hardware store and buy a .22 rifle or even any ammo, but not a pistol. I am quite liberal in my views of government roles in our lives, helping poor people, govs first responsibility is the health and welfare of its citizens: healthcare for all, etc. But I am quite conservative when it comes to citizen’s rights, in other words, conserve our freedoms!! Not sure anyone needs a clip that holds a large number of rounds, but then that can also turn into a very slippery slope to erode freedoms. Didn’t mean for this to turn into a rant, but it is what it is!!

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      Indeed john, and that inability to distinguish reality form fantasy is enhanced by many of the drugs these children are increasingly subjected to at a younger and younger age; and all this for the sake of offsetting the effects of government mandated vaccination programs that introduce 49 doses of 14 vaccines by the time a child is 6 years of age or 69 doses of 16 vaccines by the age of 18. Vaccines are specifically designed to cause inflammation in the body, including brain inflammation that in turn results in brain damage yet the government, Medical profession and drug industry only reluctantly acknowledge the most severe forms of brain damage while virtually ignoring the lesser chronic forms of brain damage that will inevitably result.

      Violence in the classroom is a growing problem with teachers now opting to wear protective Kevlar clothing to protect themselves from violent students.
      http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/teachers-kevlar-violent-classrooms-nbta-1.3474070

      • John Dutcher

        Ken,
        I concur! I knew that these children were receiving quite a few vaccinations at early ages, but I did NOT know they were being given that many shots, Good Grief!! Here, in Michigan, they rarely let little Johnny out to run and play, which just about every boy needs, I did when I was a child, made me a much better student!! I could actually sit still for a bit,LOL!! But Thank God, they did not have all of this then, even though we certainly got our fair share of monkey serum in the vaccines, hence the big Hep C scare going on now, “If you are a baby boomer better get checked for Hep C”, most of our vaccinations at that time supposedly had contaminated monkey serum in the vaccine. I swear, it seems, most people are just off their rocker quite a bit!!
        Also the statin drug is bad too, our neighbor was on it( he was elderly) and within 3 months of starting statins, the cartilage in his knees just disappeared, supposedly a side effect of the statin drugs.

  • blesse'd are the cheese makers

    So. When an admitted jihadist rents a bobtail truck, drives it to a crowded urban area, drives through a barricade and runs over 30 people, killing many of them, why don’t we hear an outcry from the liberal gun grabbers, “Please, we must do something about those bobtail trucks!” “Someone needs to pass a law to ban these bobtail trucks!” You realize, don’t you, that the foregoing argument is ridiculous. However, when it comes to guns, the liberal gun grabbers don’t seem to have any problem whatsoever making this inherently flawed, baseless argument.

    When I was in high school (in the late 60s), during dove season, for instance, we would take our shotguns to school with us (and a handgun or two). We would go out in the parking lot at lunch time and admire each other’s weapons and discuss where we were going to go hunting after school that day. Nobody thought a thing of it and nobody ever went on a rampage. Didn’t have a guard gate to get in and out of the parking lot either.

    The children who lost their lives last week had not even been placed on stretchers yet before the gun grabbing politicians started using their dead bodies as excuses to start the mantra one more time to restrict and/or confiscate guns. They have absolutely no shame! I grow weary of the irrational arguments constantly being spewed out by these opportunists. Thankfully, most of us out here see right through their idiotic arguments.

    There is absolutely ZERO correlation between the arguments to legalize raw milk and any proposed laws to restrict or confiscate guns other than it is one more example that the government wants control of every aspect of our lives. I agree with Antonin Scalia on the right to bear arms — The Constitution says what it means and means what it says viewed through the original intent of the founders.

    Once again, why don’t we get back on point here, whatdaya say.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      I was arguing for going back to a period when we had minimal rules to keep guns out of hands of kids and crazies, in the 70s and 80s, when no one was complaining about losing their weapons, and we had little in way of mass killings (though we did have a few). Instead, we’ve gradually removed the few limits we had and, in effect, are making all guns, including assault weapons, pretty much available to all, including kids and crazies. I don’t get why these minimal rules are now seen as “gun grabbing.”

      To prevent suicide bombers, we’ve instituted limits on sales of ammonium nitrate, and few seem to object. Trucks? No, they are needed for transport. Assault weapons? Don’t see where kids and teens and wackos have an urgent daily need for them.
      https://www.dhs.gov/ammonium-nitrate-security-program

      One last thing, cheese man: I’d appreciate you not referring to me as “a liberal” whatever. I don’t ever put a derogatory label on you, like “fascist” whatever.

      • blesse'd are the cheese makers

        Mr. G —

        I do not see anywhere in my post where I level the term “liberal” directly at you. In fact, I use the phrase “liberal gun grabber.” Hopefully, that “shoe” does not fit you. If you take that as a personal attack, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I also assume you are not leveling the term “fascist” directly at me, heaven forbid. I realize sometimes we might get carried away with a bit of hyperbole.

        We may disagree on this or that, but personal attacks are unnecessary — unless it’s in relation to McAfee, well then . . . that’s an exception. One reaps what one sows.

        One last note, unfortunately, IMO, there is little, if any, “preventative” action we can take against pure evil, other than to pray for enlightenment.

  • John Dutcher

    Read the title of the blog!! it IS on target,LOL!! No pun intended!! My views lean a little towards liberalism, but it will be a cold day in Hades when I give up my guns and rifles!!
    John Dutcher

  • JHeckman

    “public health, medical, and veterinary organizations are lining up for their annual ritual of killing legislation that would legalize the sale of unpasteurized milk directly from dairy farms to consumers.”
    I would bet that very few of the individuals that long list of organizations represent have actually read up on the scientific literature pertaining to milk; too many simply patriot the consensus.
    At least this one soil scientist has actually studied the literature: Renewable Agriculture and Food Systems, Cambridge University Press. Link to Securing fresh food from fertile soil, challenges to the organic and raw milk movements
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/renewable-agriculture-and-food-systems/article/securing-fresh-food-from-fertile-soil-challenges-to-the-organic-and-raw-milk-movements/18325E375E068A538E07EF4E6F6ABA22

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      Dr. Heckman, can you tell me how many E.coli 0157:H7 outbreaks involving raw milk have happened since 2005 and how many innocent children developed HUS after drinking contaminated raw milk? Let me remind you that these parents made the choice to choose raw milk for their children because of people like you that promote the health benifits, but not the pathogenic risks?

      • JHeckman

        Mary,

        I do not promote the health benefits, rather I report what is in the medical literature and let the consumer decide. See Table 2 of my peer reviewed publication.

        In this paragraph I point out the potential for presence pathogens: “The three main pathogens of public health concern with unpasteurized milk are Campylobacter jejuni, the shiga-producing strains of Escherichia coli and Salmonella. These pathogens are commonly found in bulk tank commodity raw milk intended for pasteurization; but in carefully produced fresh unprocessed milk, they are found only on rare occasion (Baars et al., 2015). The Real Raw Milk Facts website, which reports illnesses and deaths attributed to either raw milk or pasteurized milk, makes no distinction between commodity raw milk intended for pasteurization and carefully produced clean raw milk produced for fresh consumption.”

        What is the risk from not drinking carefully produced fresh unprocessed milk? How many deaths from Asthma?

        • Mary McGonigle-Martin

          Dr. Heckman,

          The Real Raw Milk Facts does break it down by heardshare, legal farm sales and legal retail. Also, You didn’t answer my questions about the number of raw milk outbreaks involving the pathogen 0157:H7?

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            Dr. Heckman,

            http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/outbreak-tables It ends in 2013. There are more outbreaks that need to be added for the past 4 years.

            These raw milk outbreaks are not from raw milk intended to be pasteurized. In other words, not from CAFO dairies.

          • JHeckman

            Mary,
            Why are asking me that question?
            I assumed your question was rhetorical since anyone could look in the table and count up the number “outbreaks involving the pathogen 0157:H7”.
            You are partly correct that sometimes Real Raw Milk Facts “does break it down by heardshare, legal farm sales and legal retail.” But in many cases it is unspecified. So how do such count? Also legal status does not necessarily equate with “carefully produced fresh unprocessed milk”.
            Because of the lack of support from agriculture and public health institutions, farms that may be able to legally provide access to raw milk are not always well trained in careful production practices. That is why in my publication I call for agricultural extension programs to train raw milk dairy farmers. With the exception of the Penn State Raw Milk Workshop in 2014 and an Extension Bulletin from University of Maine, there has been hardly any training or assistance to producers. As I argue in my article, if more support and training were available, the safety record may be further improved.

          • Mary McGonigle-Martin

            Dr. Heckman,

            These pathogens are commonly found in bulk tank commodity raw milk intended for pasteurization; but in carefully produced fresh unprocessed milk, they are found only on rare occasion (Baars et al., 2015).

            If this is true, then why are there so many raw milk outbreaks since Sally Fallon and the WAPF began the Raw Milk Movement in 2000? It only took 5 years for E.coli 0157:H7 to show up in raw milk. Kids suffering from acute kidney failure is nothing to be taken lightly.

            As for university extension programs educating both raw milk producers and consumers, I am in 100% support of this. The production and sale of raw milk is not going away and farmers entering this business need to be trained. It is not like growing fruits and vegetables and anyone can safely do it. There are huge consequences when raw milk becomes contaminated and children are the victims.

            I have your article sitting on my desk. I haven’t had a chance to read it.

            As for Real Raw Milk Facts and how the type of milk is reported, it is reported like the CDC reports it. This is where the information comes from. Outbreaks are a different story. There are state reports that can be read with the outbreak information is must more detailed.

          • Gordon S Watson

            as for your query ” … why are there so many raw milk outbreaks since Sally Fallon and the WAPF began the Raw Milk Movement in 2000?” … let’s start with “SO MANY” ?? …. “MANY”, as compared with what other foodstuff in commerce, ma’am ? The incidence of people getting sick from consuming raw milk – PROVABLY, MIND YOU – is infinitesimal versus the numbers of Americans who fall ill from a dozen other sources we could name.
            yesterday I spoke with a chef who works at a restaurant on Salt Spring Island, asking him about raw oysters. They serve hundreds per week … every customer happily – knowingly – risking getting REALLY sick, as did hundreds of people last summer, across Canada. The response of the BC govt? … to assist the oystermen do better handling the product!!

    • Mary McGonigle-Martin

      Gordon, go away. I’m not talking to you. I’m talking to Dr. Heckman. I can’t believe David allows you to still have access to this blog. You are a sad, angry, pitiful man.

      • Gordon S Watson

        Au contraire – MMcG-Martin, in real life, I am filled with the Joy of the Lord, daily! Part of that comes from linking producers of REAL MILK, with those who seek it out, in order to heal demselves, after their health is precarious, after anti-biotics. this is Mister Gumpert’s forum and if he let’s you = The Wicked Witch of the Campaign for REAL MILK = continue to contribute (?) to his forum = then by comparison I’m just a cameo performer in this circus.

        But … riding that One Trick Pony of yours around and around, for the last decade … with blinders on … you wouldn’t know about all the testimonies of healing people get from REAL MILK. What you need to do, lady, is get down on your knees and thank God your son is a big strong healthy young man, after his ordeal. There are many who had his problem, who didn’t make it out of the hospital, after contracting HUS from the many perfectly-legal poisons called “phoods”, found on retail store shelves, every day. Get out of that rut of the pity-party you’re in, and appreciate the gift of Life,

        Meanwhile … back at the ranch … one of the Elders of American society, ie former Congressman Ron Paul, has something intelligent to say, directly on-point the risk of guns vs REAL MILK, at

        https://www.thenewamerican.com/reviews/opinion/item/28316-more-gun-violence-let-s-look-beyond-politics

  • Guys,

    Did I ever suggest gun grabbing?? No I didn’t.

    Why is it that conservative citizens refuse to expose themselves to back ground checks ?
    Why was it that Trump repealed a ban on the mentally ill having the ability to buy guns?

    Why is it that conservative gun owners have a problem with locking up guns so kids don’t take them to school?

    I do agree that kids should know about butchering animals and both love and respect and revere life.

    I do agree that video games twists the mind and degrades the value of life.

    I do agree that the American Gut is connected to the American brain. With a screwed up gut is causing insanity in gun violence.

    Why is that we have few bombings at schools? Its because bombs are hard to make and heavy and bunky. We don’t allow the sale of explosives to the public. Dynamite has been banned for decades.

    Why is it that Austalia has had literally no masse shootings since banning the AR15.

    The romance of the AR15 is powerful. I own a Bushmaster .223 and it is registered and restricted by the state of CA. That is not a ban or a grab, that is my state saying clearly that weapons of mass killings will only be held by those that are vetted.

    To fix the mental illness problem is part of the problem….fixing access to killing tools is the other part!

    • brad

      Conservative citizens refusing background checks? My friend – if you buy a gun EVERYONE gets a background check, whether you are a liberal snowflake or a Rambo wannabe. Period.

      Which conservative parents don’t stop their kids from taking guns to school? i haven’t heard of that lately, although i just this morning read an article in which someone called in a gun shooting threat to a high school, and a teacher and student were shown sitting by the doors with their rifles protecting that school. No shooter attempted to shoot that school. Hmm.

      Just because a rifle has semi-automatic capabiity it is NOT your arbitrarily designated “gun of mass killings” – that is an arbitrary and inaccurate assumption on your part and not valid. It ALSO makes sure that if you shoot that coyote chasing your goats, that you can put it out of it’s misery if your first shot ONLY protected your livestock but didn’t make a clean kill. Throwing a bolt? That is going to take at least 4 X as long if you are expert and practice – in the meantime that coyote is going where and doing what? You are not likely to hit it next shot and have a damaged animal on the loose.

      That is just one scenario of good usage for a semi-automatic which is not in the mass killing arena. How about one of the 2,500,000 X a firearm is used to protece from violent crimes and other crimes in the US each year? If one has a semi-auto – that burglar, thief, rapist, murderer is much more likely to be deterred and you are guaranteed to be safer. It happens. Many times every year.

      In fact i really wish i HAD a good game caliber rifle to protect my crops from deer and bear, my hogs and goats from coyotes, bobcats, mountain lions and bears – all of which leave tracks on our ranch.

      • David Gumpert David Gumpert

        “Under federal law, private-party sellers are not required to perform background checks on buyers, whether at a gun show or other venue. They also are not required to record the sale, or ask for identification. This requirement is in contrast to sales by gun stores and other Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders who are required to record all sales and perform background checks on almost all buyers, regardless of whether the venue is their business location or a gun show within their state. Access to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) is limited to FFL holders and FFLs are not issued to persons that only sell firearms at gun shows.[n 1]”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

  • William March

    Thirty states in the USA have no age limit for chrildren to possess a long gun or rifle ,even liberal NY State allows a child to possess a long gun at 14 years .Since many states have liberal possession laws pertaining to chrildren and firearms why is Iowa being even mentioned . Why are we comparing raw milk laws with gun laws . Violence is a serious problem in this country it has nothing to do with making raw milk legal .

  • D. Smith D. Smith

    Everyone here needs a taste of reality, I fear. This article lays everything out about as plain as it possibly can – – and it’s about as truthful as anything I’ve seen so far in the media.

    The list of “alreadys” is sickening.

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/02/brian-wilson/the-missing-link/

    The medical industry and the psych industry have absolutely NO intention of connecting the dots either. If they do it would break them up in business.

    If someone makes up their mind they are going to do something bad, they will get their weapon of choice one way or another and that has to be as obvious as noses on faces. “Regulations” have never stopped anything yet.

  • Vera

    “… even though there hasn’t been a single recorded death associated with legally available raw milk in the U.S. for more than 15 years.”

    Two deaths reported in 2014. See the CDC database of reported outbreaks at https://wwwn.cdc.gov/foodborneoutbreaks/Default.aspx where the data can be downloaded. One death from Listeriosis and one from Campylobacter.

    One death in FL (Millers Organic Farm in PA, https://www.pritzkerlaw.com/personal-injury/2016/millers-organic-farm-raw-milk-linked-to-listeria-outbreak) and one in UT (Ropelato Dairy, http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/10/raw-milk-blamed-on-80-illnesses-in-utah-outbreak). Both deceased were people already ill from other diseases.

    Was either farmer RAWMI-trained? Mark can confirm.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      The sentence you quote talks about “legally available raw milk.” Actually, there were two deaths reported in, I believe, 2004. Those were from illegal queso fresca, or “bathtub”, cheese.

      As for the 2014 cases, you said it yourself, deceased were seriously ill from other diseases.

      The point of my assertion has to do with the scale of the two problems, and the official responses to the perceived problems…really not trying to get into a re-do of debate about those particular situations.

  • Pete

    All you’re doing here is showing how out of touch with rural America you are David. Until the mass shootings in the late 90’s led to the feds to ban guns on school grounds, it was common for kids to bring guns to school all across rural America for taking hunting after school. By the time they hit high school they’d been shooting for more than a decade.

    The problem isn’t the guns, it never was. It was the pharmaceuticals we drug kids up with. Or the broken families and mass violence of the inner city. Virtually every one of these mass shooters has been on FDA drugs known to cause violent episodes.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      I definitely can’t claim to be in touch with rural America on guns. I grew up going to inner city schools in Chicago in the 1960s. In those places, if someone had a gun with them, it was bad news. If they pointed the gun at you, it was even worse news. Fortunately, the weapons of choice were mostly your fists, and occasionally a knife. I only saw a gun once, when a non-student outside my high school pointed one at me, and I hope I never see it again. Which gets to the point of my article. Violence is always the problem of the people engaged in violent behavior, whether the cause is pharma drugs or broken families or inner-city gang violence. But it occurs much more easily and quickly if guns are readily available. Those problems are realities in our society, in both cities and, from what I understand, in rural America. Why can’t we regulate gun availability to young people, like Iowa used to do for those under age 21? Why can’t we do background checks on all gun purchasers to keep them out of the hands of those with criminal records or evidence of serious emotional problems? Those aren’t assaults on the Second Amendment.

      • D. Smith D. Smith

        @ David: You can’t be serious, David. If it were that easy to get a proper background check on “the criminals” (who, BTW, will be the only ones with a gun soon enough) I can think of a lot of problems we could solve all over the world, not just in America. You simply cannot regulate “behavior”. Now, I’m not always right, but I’m never wrong about that statement. Behavior is unpredictable, at best, and that goes for both man and beast. And you can’t regulate behavior with pills, either. “Medicated” behavior is even more unpredictable.

        America already has a regulation stating that no one with a felony background can purchase a gun or ammunition – see how well that’s working out?? Only the honest people will submit to a background check and the honest people are generally not the problem. These people committing the crimes often have no record yet anyway, but they always seem to know who to contact to get their hands on a gun or whatever it is they’re looking for.

        The other obstacle I can clearly see, is that America has been so busy trying to keep God out of the schools and everywhere else over the past 25-35 years or so, that we are now seeing the other end of that equation.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    Although he may very well be correct with his interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, his statement that, “Guns are your last protection against those who wish to take your rights away from you” and that, “When stripped of the right to defend oneself, we are no longer citizens, but rather, subjects and prisoners” is indicative of a foundation based on human reasoning as apposed to the Words of Jesus Christ. It brings to mind a statement made to Rodrigo (Robert De Niro) by Jeremy Irons who played the part of Father Gabriel in “The Mission” movie, “If might is right, then love has no place in the world. It may be so, it may be so. But I don’t have the strength to live in a world like that”.
    https://www.therebel.media/remember_the_true_meaning_of_2nd_amendment_after_mass_shootings

  • blesse'd are the cheese makers

    The “Background Check” argument is an irrational argument. This argument must assume that everyone will willfully comply with whatever rule or regulation mandates the so called “background” check. The assumption that everyone would comply with such a law/regulation/rule is not steeped in reality has zero basis in the real world.

    Same goes for “gun free” zones. How ridiculous is that? Put a sign up that states, “This is a gun free zone. You will get in trouble if you come here with a gun.” Wow. That’ll stop ’em, right?

    Here’s a sign from a public school in Claude, Texas:

    ATTENTION: PLEASE BE AWARE THAT THE STAFF AT CLAUDE ISD IS ARMED AND MAY USE WHATEVER FORCE NECESSARY TO PROTECT OUR STUDENTS.

    Now THAT sign may have some effect. The “Gun Free” sign, not so much.

  • Steve Tallent

    “A year ago, President Trump signed legislation to lift restrictions on making guns available to the mentally ill.”

    David, you need to look a little deeper into this. First the statement isn’t factually accurate. The unconstitutional regulation did not keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. It simply allowed the background check system to be connected to the Social Security Administration to see who was getting Federal benefits for mental impairment. This would have then been considered when doing the background check. The regulation, which could have been done by Obama any time in his 8 years, was not done until right at the end, which allowed Congress and Trump to roll it back. Second, it violated the fourth amendment because it potentially stripped away rights without due process. Third, the regulation never actually went into effect. If it had, it would doubtless have been challenged in court and struck down due to its unconstitutionality. Even the ACLU was against this restriction. https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/no-trump-did-not-make-it-easier-for-ment

    And yes, we have a problem in this country, but it’s not guns. We have more gun violence than any other other first world countries. But we also have more drunk driving and deaths from impaired driving. We have more child drownings. We have more SIDS. We have more cancer. We have the most obesity. We have one of the highest newborn, infant and mother mortality rates in the world. So, should we do away with guns? Should we do away with cars or alcohol? Should we ban swimming pools or create laws that families with children cannot own them or that would otherwise keep kids away from these dangers? Should we ban baby beds? Should we ban all foods considered potentially fattening? Should we tell our doctors they can’t deliver babies? The conversation around guns is ridiculous when viewed in context with other problems we are facing in this country. Every death of an innocent is tragic, but we have to have intelligent and informed conversation about solutions. If every time a crime was stopped or a criminal put down by a responsible gun-wielding citizen it made national news, our national conversation would change. But those things aren’t reported. Reporting is pretty much one-sided and incorrect with many “facts” coming from places like Everytown.com, whose statistics are SOOO fudged that even publications advocating for gun control have pointed out their inaccuracies and embellishments. Since gun control is and has been such a key component of the platform, you have to wonder why no gun control was implemented when the Democrats controlled the White House, the House of Reps, and had a supermajority in the Senate for two years. At this point, it seems like it is just divisive rhetoric, with no actual solutions being floated. Almost without exception, every gun control idea that is presented wouldn’t have prevented the tragedy being used to push the gun control agenda. But if you’ve got one, man I would love to hear it. My wife and I have talked extensively about this and it’s a hard subject. We haven’t come up with any good solutions that would prevent these happenings.

    I think one of the main issues in our country is that there is so much division, there is so much anger, couple that with not teaching respect and consideration for others, especially those that disagree with you, an innate selfishness that is fostered, and it is little wonder that some don’t value life. And it is sad. It would be great if we could glorify and concentrate ideas that we agree on, if we could have civil discourse over areas where we differ, and treat each other with the kindness, respect, and courtesy with which we would like to be treated. Then maybe we would be able to spare enough attention and have enough emotional and physical reserves to reach out to and help those that are hurting like this guy was, and get him the treatment and support that he clearly needed.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      Steve, I completely agree with you about America’s division and anger. It’s bad, and it just seems to get worse. I think the accessibility of social media help drive the divisions, and it doesn’t help when our top leaders use it to call each other names.

      I also agree there is no magic solution to the violence we are experiencing. You can argue about the technicalities of a particular law or regulation, like the one that Trump rescinded, (and gun laws seem to be especially complicated), but the trend toward reducing restrictions on gun ownership over the last decade are clear. So, too, is the trend toward more of these mass murders, not only in schools but in churches, at concerts, and other public venues. They are really a form of domestic terrorism. Unlike in places like Iraq and Pakistan, which feature suicide bombers, ours feature alienated men and boys using assault rifles.

      Technically what you say is correct about swimming pools, baby beds, drunk driving. But the reality is that no modern society can tolerate such domestic terrorism that includes the mass murder of children in their schools on an increasingly frequent basis. No more than we could tolerate passenger jets to be commandeered and used as weapons of mass destruction. (Or, I should say, no other First World country tolerates the regular slaughters we continue to tolerate; I would hope we have arrived at the tipping point and are ready to take appropriate actions to stop the slaughters.)

      What I argued in my blog post is that there are ways to reduce the risk–not eliminate it–without anything approaching confiscation. How do I know? We have had the laws and regulations on the books in the recent past, and we didn’t have the kind of epidemic of violence we have today.

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    “A January 2018 injunction against anyone “selling, delivering or distributing” raw milk in Ontario was the last straw, criminalizing peaceful citizens who want access to this safe, unprocessed food. So, with the encouragement of leaders from several cow-share communities in southwestern Ontario – we’ve mobilized!

    ‘…Please help us pay the legal bills: $100,000 during the next ten months. (Regardless of which side wins at the Ontario Superior Court, the decision could be appealed and ultimately the case may be decided by the Supreme Court of Canada. So next year, unless the case is settled, we will have to raise money for the next round.)”

    https://www.gofundme.com/legal-raw-milk-canada

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    This is an excellent commentary by Dave Rubin on the regressive ideology of the left. “The Left is No Longer Liberal”.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq86Beh3T70

    And this, “The Moment LARRY ELDER changed DAVE RUBINS Mind Forever”.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    It’s free-spirited, soul-searching, and bottom up action by individuals such as this where real change will come about… Now, if only we could convince government politicians to engage in the same soul searching before they implement top down policies that infringe on the Constitutional rights of individuals, parents, families, small businesses, farmers and responsible gun owners etc.!!!

    https://twitter.com/abcpolitics/status/965711747419115522?t=1&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjc18y&refsrc=email&iid=26b32cb5f0934712878cbbe32f537494&uid=3031892108&nid=244+272699400

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    “As discussed in Part One, American teenagers are drowning in a rising tide of disorders: behavioral issues, sensory problems, depression, self-harm and more. The medical-pharmaceutical industry has rushed to brand all of these problems as mental health conditions treatable with profit-generating drugs. Few are talking about the broader neurodevelopmental crisis—triggered in part by environmental toxins such as the mercury and aluminum in vaccines—that is sabotaging children’s neurodevelopment and sapping adolescent resilience.”
    https://worldmercuryproject.org/news/related-teen-epidemics-looking-for-answers-in-all-the-wrong-places-part-2-of-2/?utm_source=mailchimp

    Indeed, and coupled with “the teaching of evolution to young people in the classroom”, Biochemist Dr. Duane Gish states, “convinces many of them that they are hardly more than a mechanistic product of a mindless universe, that there is no one to whom they are responsible that they are only responsible to themselves. The changes for the worse which we have seen in society in the past 50 years are the predictable result of indoctrination in evolutionary philosophy”.

  • Leon Moyer

    What about that security guard that was killed at the school in Florida? Was he armed? If not, why wasn’t he armed so that he could of stopped the killer when he met him, instead of becoming another victim? If the security guard was armed, then he failed to fulfill his duty, didn’t he?
    The only way to stop random killers with a gun, is for nearly everyone in the audience of the killer to also be armed, and then one or more of the intended victims may become a hero and stop the killer before he calmly and freely takes his time in killing people, then walks away and joins the students as this Florida killer did this week by walking out of the school with his hands up with the rest of the students, and that is why he was found about one hour later, away from the school!
    I like the above solution:
    Here’s a sign from a public school in Claude, Texas:

    ATTENTION: PLEASE BE AWARE THAT THE STAFF AT CLAUDE IS ARMED AND MAY USE WHATEVER FORCE NECESSARY TO PROTECT OUR STUDENTS.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      You seem to think these situations are like Wyatt Earp at the OK Corral. It’s almost irrelevant if the security guard was armed. The attacker had an assault rifle, like used in the military. He was wearing body armor. He had the advantage of surprise. You think a security guard, with his .38 revolver, shooting in the midst of a panicked crowd of kids, would be able to accomplish anything productive….except maybe add to the mayhem? I got into a discussion like this on Facebook, where people were saying that the problem was gun-free zones. Well, how come none of the thousands at the Las Vegas concert, in a “carry” state with almost no restrictions on guns, were able to pull out their guns and take out the shooter in his hotel room? Similar reasons. Attacker had the equivalent of a machine gun, body armor, and the advantage of surprise and position. It’s just not like in the movies, where Rambo appears and takes care of the bad guys.

  • Steve Wilson

    The link between the easy access to guns and prescribed pschycometric medications has been totaly ignored by the media. Most of these killers have been mediicated with drugs that alter their reality, for them life becomes a movie or a video game, and they are just the actors:

    https://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/
    http://www.cchrflorida.org/antidepressants-are-a-prescription-for-mass-shootings/

    Why isn’t this explored by the media? Because the same guys who hit on Raw Milk because of the huge profits they make from processed food also make huge profits from drugs. Corporation are now in full control in the US, profits are senior to humanity for these greedy pigs.

  • Vera,

    No deaths from any RAWMI trained or sourced raw milk producers.

    82 deaths and 153,000 illnesses from Pasteurized dairy products in last 35 years ( CDC )

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Dr. Heckman, just curious. How many years have you been drinking raw milk?

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Dr. Heckman, Basra Er al, 2015. Hmm…..Beals, Heckman, Wightman. Farm to Consumer Foundation. Hmm…. I do have to say yes that Tim Wightman is a nice and very sincere man. I do have to say I’m seeing a little bias in your article.

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Dr. Heckman,
    You asked this question in your article, “Why is less than perfectly safe a manageable risk for every kind of food except in the case of fresh unpasteurized milk? Why are no other foods held to the impossible standard of a perfect safety standard. It is all about the cow shit that can get in the milk and contaminate it. Sally Fallon promotes the consumption of raw milk to infants and young children. A high risk population for acquiring a foodborne illness if contaminated cow shit gets in the milk. Raw milk is a high risk food because of the location of the teats and anus of a cow.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      There is nothing wrong with “cow shit” Mary… as long as it is not adulterated with antibiotics, hormones, pesticides and GMO’s etc. Pigs, dogs, chickens, ducks, fish and insects certainly recognize “cow shit” as a source of food. Indeed, there is a considerable amount of undigested material and available nutrients in “cow shit” and the bacteria present is a fringe benefit.

      “10 Ways You Could Eat Feces (cow shit) Today”
      https://listverse.com/2013/06/21/10-foods-you-eat-that-all-contain-feces/

      Do you are consuming organic food then you are more then likely consuming foods that are grown using “cow shit”, pig shit, sheep shit, goat shit and horse shit etc.

      Do you consume grain products, seeds, nuts, spices and chocolate if so then you may wish to take into consideration that there is an official acceptable allowable limit of rat shit and mouse shit etc. You’d better be careful of those raw nuts and seeds…

      • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

        That second last paragraph should read, “Do you consume organic food, if so then you are more then likely consuming foods that are grown using “cow shit”, pig shit, sheep shit, goat shit and horse shit etc.

      • Mary McGonigle-Martin

        The deadly pathogen Ecoli. 0157H:7 is a game changer for cows, goats, sheep, pigs and deer. Children have died from going to petting zoo or county fair. The same shit that is on their fur can get into raw milk.

        • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

          Mary, All the more reason to ensure that children’s immune systems are up to par… In other words let them get dirty and eat and drink raw probiotic rich foods, avoid drugs and chemicals that disrupt and compromise immune function, such as vaccines, antibiotics, antipyretics, antiseptic cleaning agents, disinfectants, pesticides and herbicides/biocides etc.

          In our endeavor to outwit microbes, insects, parasites, and rodents etc. via the use of toxic vaccines, drugs and chemicals we have created a real mess for ourselves; and it will continue to get worse if we persist with using those same methods over and over again expecting different results. I believe Albert Einstein defined that scenario as insanity.

        • Gordon S Watson

          you make an excellent point, MaryMcGonnigleMartin … for once. The perfect illustration, being : the 22 children who were proven to have been sickened from e. coli after going through the petting Zoo at the Pacific National Exhibition in 2010. The 4H leaders knew about it … but what was the response of the PNE management? They were told to hush it up until the PNE ended!

          do we see petting zoos shut down? According to your obsession with excrement, they ought to be outlawed. But I don’t see you riding your One Trick Pony into state legislatures, on that topic. The bit about “The same shit that is on their fur can get into raw milk.” Quite a leap! Of bacteria and logic … both!!

  • Vera

    Saw this today: “Raw Milk: RAWMI, Safety, Science, Politics, Our Biome, and the Future”
    Free public lecture at UBC by two of North America’s foremost raw milk experts, Mark McAfee and Alice Jongerden.

    When: Tuesday February 27, 7:00 PM
    Where: The University of British Columbia: McMillan Building, Room 166

    More information at http://bcherdshare.org/raw-milk-feb-27-ubc

    Sponsored by the B.C. Herdshare Association.

  • mark mcafee mark mcafee

    I was going to name my presentation….”eat shit and thrive!” but did not think that title would be received very well. Eating fecal bacteria has been the saving grace of zoo keepers In fact, animals will die if their wild surroundings are not simulated including the fecal bacteria. Fecal transplants are now the ultimate ICU therapy!!

    Come to think of it….humans are dying because they have lost the fecal contributions and healthy soils in the environment.
    Don’t be talking shit about shit. It is the unheralded savior if our planet and its inhabitants. It saved Brad Pits life on Mars ( the Martian ).

  • Mary McGonigle-Martin

    Dr. Heckman, I found this article for you. In your article, you stated that “In India, Bangladesh and Pakistan, Floyd milk is widely available for consumption without processing.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.wikihow.com/Boil-Milk-in-India%3famp=1

    When My don was hospitalized, one of his GI doctors was from India. He said that in India everyone knows to boil the milk. Just because they don’t have mandatory pasteurization, doesn’t mean the milk is not heated for safety. It is a cultural norm in India to boil the milk before you drink it.

  • Gordon S Watson

    one has to wonder what you’re doing on this forum, Missus McGonigle-Martin … with posts as far-out as … “the cultural norm to boil milk in India” ? Who cares what the cow-worshippers do?!

    over the last decade, your rants indicate your obsessive behaviour, in the face of a great deal of evidence to the contrary, is well in to mental illness territory. All the while you’ve been flailing-away with one foot nailed to the floor of that major trauma – your little boy getting sick MAYBE from raw milk – millions of people have come on board to appreciate that raw milk from artisanal producers, is … white folks remembering our heritage of milk and honey, and taking charge of our own health. Probably thousands of little independent farmers are producing REAL MILK for local demand, all over America. An intelligent person would come to terms with the fact that you’re on the wrong side of this issue

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