What Would Dr. Price Do About the FCLO Mess?

WestonAPrice

Dr. Weston A. Price

It’s a question that has been asked frequently over the last few weeks among members of the Weston A. Price Foundation: What would Dr. Weston A. Price have made of the fermented cod liver oil mess?

Much like Christians wonder what Jesus would have thought about gay marriage. Or Buddhists wondering what the Buddha might have thought about the mindfulness craze sweeping the U.S. Or Jews wondering how Moses would have handled Israel’s occupied territories.

Certainly I doubt Dr. Price intended to be lumped with Jesus, the Buddha, or Moses. He wasn’t a religious leader, he was a dentist and a scientific researcher, but his research and conclusions about food and nutrition are taken as gospel by many WAPF adherents.

So what was Dr. Price’s take on cod liver oil? Remember, he wouldn’t have had a reaction to fermented cod liver oil because there was no such product in his days of assessing cod liver oil during the late 1920s.

As Jim Schmechel points out in a comment following my previous post, a recent article from Price Pottenger Foundation, a fore-runner to the Weston A. Price Foundation, which catalogues Dr. Price’s research, says this about the dentist’s approach to cod liver oil:

“During this time period (late 1920s), Dr. Weston A. Price was conducting numerous animal studies with cod liver oil. The results showed that some types of the oil were very beneficial to immunity and proper physical and mental development, particularly in regard to phosphorus and calcium metabolism regulation (positively affecting bone, dental, blood and brain health). Yet he found that it could also cause great harm, especially when overused.   He was careful to note ‘some dangers that are not usually recognized or properly emphasized in the literature.’ “

Especially pertinent to today’s controversy, the article continues:

“Freshness and storage of the oil is important, he continued. Even though an oil may have a high vitamin content, if it is oxidized or rancid, it will not have the desired effects. ‘The available evidence indicates that fish oils [including cod liver oil] that have been exposed to the air may develop toxic substances.… Rancid fats and oils destroy vitamins A and E, the former in the stomach.’

“Overdosing with cod liver oil (and other fish oils), he cautioned, can be detrimental, possibly resulting in depression or paralysis, and he warned that ‘serious structural damage can be done to hearts and kidneys.’ “

I found a similar warning I hadn’t seen before on the Weston A. Price Foundation site today, in searching out background about Dr. Price’s overall research. It states: “Weston Price prescribed cod liver oil to his patients but he also warned against giving too much. ….’In my clinical and technical investigations of the activators for inducing mineral metabolism, I have continually found evidence indicating that cod liver oil contains products that are very seriously toxic to humans and other land animals and can do much harm when given in large doses, even only as large as frequently advocated.’ ”

I don’t know about you, but I find these statements astounding in the context of the current FCLO mess. Here you have Dr. Price expressing concerns about fresh cod liver oil potentially being “seriously toxic to humans,” and expressing special concerns about possibly rancid cod liver oil, and what is the organization named after him doing about it?

-For starters, WAPF continues to heartily endorse fermented cod liver oil.

-It has condemned a report by one of its own officers showing convincing evidence of rancidity in the product of the main producer of FCLO, Green Pasture.

-It has thrown out of its upcoming conference a naturopath and longtime proponent of cod liver oil for making a connection to his own heart problems—a connection that Dr. Price specifically warned about.

-It has strongly suggested that people who become ill from FCLO have only themselves to blame for taking too much.

-It has discounted evidence that at least some of the Green Pasture product isn’t even made from cod livers, but from pollock livers.

So I wonder, how would Dr. Price have handled this current situation? Of course, we’ll never know, but I will hypothesize three reactions on his part:

First, he would have been shocked that his namesake organization so strongly endorsed a CLO product that disregarded his own warnings about the importance of freshness.

Second, and equally important, I think he would have been upset by his namesake’s refusal to push for serious ongoing primary research on this subject. Not analysis and endorsements by scientists on the WAPF payroll, but real research on animals and people—the kind Dr. Price himself did—to figure out whether the concerns that have been expressed about illness from FCLO are for real, and what’s behind them.

Third, I suspect that Dr. Price would have been upset and angry that his namesake is essentially disregarding complaints and concerns from users, and thus flouting basic tenets of public health. WAPF should be distancing itself from Green Pasture, issuing cautionary warnings to its members about taking this product, and calling on Green Pasture to conduct serious testing with serious labs, to begin to get at what problems there might be with the product. At least two distributors of cod liver oil have taken steps to eliminate or reduce their involvement with fermented cod liver oil–Dr.Ron’s, which is owned by naturopath Ron Schmid, discontinued selling the Green Pasture product; and Beeyoutiful has said it won’t re-order after selling out its existing stocks of Green Pasture.

Today, Kaayla Daniel, the WAPF vice president who carried out the study on fermented cod liver oil, said on her blog that she has heard from a number of people complaining about potentially serious physical problems associated with FCLO. “Since the publication of my special report Hook, Line and Stinker on August 23, many people have shared stories of atrial fibrillation, abnormal rhythms and related heart problems that appeared subsequent to FCLO consumption and that have disappeared with the removal of FCLO from their diets.  Dr. Ron, it seems, was not alone.”

Keep in mind that I am writing this as if the decision-making on the FCLO mess rests entirely with the WAPF and Green Pasture. Time may be running out on that. The decisions on this may shift before very long to the legal and regulatory systems.

58 comments to What Would Dr. Price Do About the FCLO Mess?

  • Ora Moose Ora Moose

    David, I hope you are wrong about government authorities stepping in to resolve internal strife at WAPF but I don’t know enough about their power structure to form an opinion. Is it ultimately Sally FM’s baby and does she make or override all the decisions? Would Kaayla consider forming a parallel organization without infringing on Dr Price naming rights if they split? Is it really too late for that, or should everyone step back and reconsider their options.

    Another simple question I don’t think has been asked but correct me if I’m wrong:

    Why would GP choose to market a fermented version since I would think that’s more expensive to produce and controversial, when they could just sell regular CLO and still have a good business?

    Inquiring minds…

    • Steve Tallent

      I can’t think of any reasons why making FCLO would be more expensive than any other CLO, and can think of some reasons why it would be cheaper to make an store – at least according to my understanding of the processes. Making a unique product gives makes it impossible for anybody else to compete with you exactly and you can always say that your product is the best and you don’t have to have proof. That’s legally allowable marketing. It could be the cheapest, crappiest product, and everybody could know it, and you’re still allowed to market it as the best. You can’t say that it is better than another product, but you can say it is the best. And then you can charge whatever the market will bear without competing with anybody else. Who would pay $49 for a product, even one produced in the US, when they could buy essentially the same product for half of that from another company?

    • Steve Tallent

      I don’t think David was talking about government authorities stepping in to resolve internal strife at WAPF. I think it was more the legal and regulatory systems being notified by disenfranchised GPP users who don’t think that their health concerns are being properly heard, understood, and addressed by GPP and/or WAPF. They want to be heard. I don’t think WAPF has broken the law, and it is debatable whether anybody could make a civil suit for their recommendations. GPP would be the one in the crosshairs. I supposed criminal charges are a possibility, maybe fraud or something, but a civil suit is much easier to win as you don’t have to actually prove anything, just have a more compelling case than your opponent. Half a people and their doctors trooping the witness stand saying what their problem was and that it went away without any treatment just by ceasing FLCO would be pretty hard to overcome. :/ And then on the regulatory side, there is the FDA . . . .

  • Marie

    Thank you David for this great analysis once again. It seems that the foundation doesn’t realize what is coming its way if they do not handle the situation correctly and keep playing favorites.

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    Brilliant words!!!

    The upcoming Anaheim WAP conference comes to mind. I can only imagine the chilly prickly feeling that will overcome the attendees….it will be a “who’s camp are you camping in” event. Truly uncomfortable.

    I have been asked to make the closing speech on Sunday evening. I am working on the presentation right now. It is a hybrid of Rodney King ” can’t we all just get along” With a bit of Martin Luther King ” I have a dream” with a pinch of the hard reality of humanity and all of its organic complexity topped with insider information coming from the front lines at RAWMI and its 9 Listed raw milk producers. I will have just returned from attending the International Milk Genomics Consortium conference in Sydney Australia with speeches at ARM…the Austalian raw milk political force for change. I will share the most recent PHD raw milk discoveries…

    I just want to reach out and bring everyone together and encourage less hesd in the sand, divisive cultish ness and instead embrace unity, objective science and humanity with the common enemy being Monsanto, big pharma and the FDA.

    “I have a dream…can’t we all just get along, think clearly, teach-teach-teach and be healthy!! ” one could hope….

    Its going to be very chilly at WAP…unless top leadership immediately finds its roots in the facts and true archives in San Diego at Price Pottinger. Instead….it should be a warm friendly reunion in sunny southern CA with plenty of delicious safer raw milk!! Yum….

    David…will you be attending the WAP conference this year ? Bring your wind breaker and layering with sweaters. I am going to try my very best to engender warmth, love, health and unity.

    • Amanda Rose

      Will you be announcing your butter oil line, Mark?

      • Ora Moose Ora Moose

        Amanda – You’re just asking that in a nice way, because you hope to be using it long term and will be recommending it to your friends right? Hope OPDC can sell BO nationally across state lines I’d have that shipped in a nuclear minute. Until then I’ll just keep making my own. Any dosage or toxidity concerns we should know about, or will Mark put that on the label and on website and update it every few years pardon the sarcasm.

    • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

      You might want to make it a hybrid of Rodney King and Rodney Dangerfield in order to lighten the air.

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    Amanda,

    No….no new butter products. But….FTCLDF has begun its effort to bring the FDA to justice. My FDA Citizens Petition on raw butter ban on interstate commerce has gone unanswered by the FDA for more than 220 days. It appears that the only thing they respond to is litigation, and litigation they will get.

    Raw butter is banned in interstate commerce even though the CDC,FDA, CDFA, CADPH data ( per FOIA ) says that there has been no illnesses or death caused by or from commercially produced state inspected raw butter…..ever!!! This should be a big win…..finally.

    Amanda…you should look up our triple test & hold program. In 14 hours we get a complete battery of tests completed. We are now able to know before release.

    • Amanda Rose

      You’re in a TB state, a TB county, and with a history of sourcing from mega dairies. I doubt your clearance will come anytime soon.

      As for the tests, if what you say is true, on-farm testing technology has made dramatic improvements. Back when you used to say basically this same thing (that you tested every batch), there were no actual tests that could meet your testing claims. I remember you used to put coliform counts on your site that didn’t match the state’s counts. You were on the verge of being shut down by the state for *filth* back in 2006 when your E.coli outbreak started. I hope your actual testing methods and your communication of your results have improved since then because I know a lot of people who put their trust in your hands.

  • Solar Activation

    I’m sure Dr. Price would not like the fact that Green Pasture promoted their FCLO as being “solar activated just as Dr. Price did”. And he might even more upset to see that claim removed after the Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation article was published, which indicated that solar activation was very dangerous (giving him severe headaches and killing all of the chickens in one experiment). http://blog.ppnf.org/cod-liver-oil-a-historical-perspective/

    Here’s what the Green Pasture FAQ stated, before and after the PPNF article.

    Before PPNF article:

    We solar activate all our products as WAP did. Solar activation is simply exposing the product to the sun. Our Plant is a solar plant and we ensure thatall our oils are exposed the the sun, moon and stars.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20150315002709/http://www.greenpasture.org/public/FAQ/index.cfm#1

    After PPNF article:

    Our plant is exposed the sun but this does not equate to solar activation as Dr. Price discusses. Dr. Price had a specific protocol and definition for the term solar activation and it does not occur unless uv rays are directly exposed to the products. In our plant the products are not exposed to solar uv.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20150820110343/http://www.greenpasture.org/public/FAQ/index.cfm#1

    • Pete

      Exposure to sun for just 1 hour was enough to turn CLO from beneficial to deadly. While WAP said glass prevented this affect, I get the distinct impression he didn’t test what would happen if exposed to light under glass for MONTHS at a time.

      In light of WAP’s findings on the harmful nature of sun exposes CLO, I would want to hear a pretty solid scientific explanation of why and how light exposure made it harmful and why light exposure through glass for many months was not harmful but beneficial before I’d ever even consider consuming the product.

      But I don’t think we even understand whats going on here.

      • Solar Activation

        I think it’s important to point out that Green Pastures stated on their website: “We solar activate all our products as WAP did.”

        And then, shortly after the PPNF article was published, they hurriedly changed that FAQ to state that they do NOT solar activate their products.

        It appears that they were only using “solar activation” as a marketing gimmick, and tried to associate FCLO to Dr. Price.

        • Pete

          Just like they associated themselves with the traditional cod liver oil of the Vikings without actually producing the traditional product (i.e. wrong species and potentially wrong method for making oil for consumption).

  • Ken Conrad Ken Conrad

    When you folks speak of butter oil are you referring to clarified butter or a type of oil made from canola?

  • carolyn

    i have a question about the criticism of overdosing. how is that possibly the fault of either GP or the WAPF? the recommended dose is rather small and the plunger provided doesn’t hold all that much. if a large quantity of FCLO can damage the heart, can’t we say the same thing about too much olive oil, fish oil, coconut oil, unfermented cod liver oil?
    why isn’t dr daniel writing similar reports on all the various “health” oils? is anyone dying from taking nordic naturals? or carlsons? or does she plan future exposes?
    i’m sorry, but this seems like a witch hunt. everyone has made up their mind on one side or the other and now they all have to defend their various antagonistic positions to the death because no one can admit that the truth might lie somewhere in the middle.
    chris kresser and chris masterjohn seem to be voices of reason.
    i’ve read some of these comments- people saying “i knew all along it was bad. it tastes so awful!” well, it’s cod liver oil for heaven’s sake! it’s a cliche dating back before my childhood that mothers held their children’s noses closed as they forced a spoonful down their throats for their own good. no one ever took the stuff because it was yummy! now even that is held as a sign of the product’s inherent danger!
    i’ve never minded the taste actually. sometimes there’s some throat burn (once i had such bad throat burn that it triggered an asthma attack but i’m not about to blame FCLO for causing asthma!). recent olive oil research says that throat burn is proof of the anti-inflammatory properties. does it work the same with CLO? i don’t know but it seems reasonable.
    in my childhood, CLO was “unscientific,” an old wife’s tale. no one subjected their children to it anymore when there was centrum and one-a-day (both now out of favor). my boy friend took some grocery store brand capsules for a year and was never sick during that time. then he stopped but every time he got a cold he would wax nostalgic about his year of perfect health from taking CLO. why did he ever stop? he just got out of the habit as we all do with the various supplements we sometimes take.
    we take it now when we remember to, more in the winter when we feel the need and less in the summer when we are out getting sun. that also seems reasonable.
    i can hardly believe that all these people who swore up and down that they never got colds, had great dental check-ups, etc are now supposed to live in fear that a spoonful could kill them. or that the people who were supposedly “harmed” by FCLO ingestion suffered in silence for all those years and now feel free to advertise their damage as proof of CLO’s deadly effects. it actually sounds like ron schmid would have fared better on a steady diet of trans fats!

    • Catherine

      My mother gave us cod liver oil as children. It did not taste bad or rancid. She did not have to force us or hold our noses.

    • D. Smith D. Smith

      @ Carolyn: He (Ron Schmid) WAS taking trans fats. “. . . the presence of 3.22% trans fat in the tested sample. From Dr. Daniels report: “Dr. Gjermund Vogt, a leading authority on fish oils says ‘No authentically raw or mildly processed cod liver oil will contain trans fats [indicating] that another oil has been added to this oil’.”

      No one will argue with you – if you want to take CLO or FCLO, go ahead. If you thought you were healthier when taking it you should have kept taking it, both you and your boyfriend.

      Everyone will and should do whatever they think is right. Follow the directions on the bottle, or follow the WAPF guidelines if you can figure out what they are now that things have been changed in their recommendations.

      Maybe at some point Dr. Daniel’ will do studies on other oils. She’s already done lots of work on soy, including soy oil. It takes time to do these things and there are how many oils on the market?

    • Pete

      “the recommended dose is rather small ”

      Thats the thing, the dose recommended by WAPF wasn’t small and it may be that the product by the nature of its manufacture is deleterious.

      “‘i knew all along it was bad. it tastes so awful!’ well, it’s cod liver oil for heaven’s sake!”

      Thats a red herring, the same one Sally trotted out. There is a testimony on WAPF’s own recommendation page from 2010 of a consumer reporting that the FCLO used to taste great but suddenly started tasting/smelling/looking awful. There are also many many people who have found FCLO makes them sick but not other forms of CLO.

      • carolyn

        i haven’t noticed it tasting different. maybe from bottle to bottle there are minor variations but nothing unexpected. i didn’t mean it as a red herring- i can’t imagine it ever tasting great. i don’t expect CLO to taste great
        likewise i don’t expect it to taste or smell rancid and old oil certainly has an off smell (and taste) which i’ve never experienced. it hasn’t made me sick.
        my chiropracter says it is the gold standard of CLO but he takes the capsules as he can’t stomach the taste. i’m seeing him tonight and i’ll ask him if he is up to date on this whole controversy

        • Steve Tallent

          If he is up to date on it, would be interesting to hear his take.

        • Pete

          Carolyn, you may not have noticed a change in the taste of FCLO, but that doesn’t mean others didn’t.

          And again, these arn’t people reacting against cod livery flavor but rather experienced CLO/FCLO consumers who found something suddenly bad about FCLO; and people who found it made them sick while non-fermented CLOs did not.

          Really people, if you expect us to believe your defenses of WAPF/GP, try not to continually resort to logical fallacies.

          • Carolyn

            Not trying to defend anything or anybody. Not a member of WAPF. Really have no dog in this fight. I take the stuff but am hardly religious about it. I have no need to defend it and yet can’t help but feeling that the attacks on it have a malice about them that goes beyond whatever the research may or may not say
            Just relating my personal experience on a completely sensory level. By saying that I did not get sick and I did not notice a taste issue, I am not discounting the personal experiences of those who did. However, your saying that some people did get sick does not excuse, for me at least, the complete condemnation of “the other side”
            But your reply proves what I have been feeling- that this has become too polarized. Because I am not clearly on your side, haven’t agreed wholeheartedly with your position, have experiences run counter to your dogma (yes, both sides have dogma) I have to be accused of defending and resorting. Sorry, but it seems that you are accusing the other camp of just that
            On another note, Steve tallent asked that I relay the opinion of my chiropractor. He’s just had a baby so hasn’t been following this but he was interested and promised to read up on it. He’s a Standard Process guy himself for all things except CLO. For that he uses Green Pastures because he believes it is superior to SP’s. Since he resells SP supplements and doesn’t sell GP’s CLO, he actually has a financial interest in hawking the CLO of Standard Process.

            D. Smith commented in response to my comment that this whole thing felt like a witch hunt, that dr Daniels had “done lots of work on” soy. I agree. And so has Sally Fallon and many others. Even michael pollan suggests that it is best eaten in traditional ways and not in the soy milks and soy chips that flood our supermarkets. But, to my knowledge no one has gone after the maker of one specific soy product. It would be one thing to say, for example, my research has shown me that cod liver oil is not as healthful as we formerly thought.
            It is quite another thing to say in all the world of cod liver oils, this one is horrible, every claim made by its makers and it’s advocates is a deliberate lie, the maker adds poison and all you people out there who don’t find it disgusting are just using logical fallacies and red herrings to defend the almighty WAPF
            Can you see the difference?

          • Steve Tallent

            I still would like to hear what your chiro has to say. I may go try to see mine tomorrow and I’ll ask him if he’s seen this. If not, I’ll shoot him an email.

            And I do see the how this differs from a critique or even attack on certain manufacturing processes, or food supplements or whatever, that are used by a number of different companies. What happens though, when one company is doing something different? What happens when they have a monopoly or a virtual monopoly? What if other companies aren’t doing things the same ay because they can’t due to intellectual property issues, patents, secret recipes, or maybe because they just don’t want to, they’ve always done it a different way, or maybe they have moral qualms about it? What happens when one company is selling GMO seed immune to extremely toxic chemicals, and then is selling the extremely toxic chemicals as well? What happens when they seem to be in bed with the very organizations that are supposed to be monitoring them for quality and safety? Then when there are concerns, or there are outright attacks, they will necessarily be directed at a single company. I’m wouldn’t say it is analogous, but I think that is closer to what we are seeing here than your example.

          • D. Smith D. Smith

            @ Carolyn: Yes, soy is a very studied subject these days, but you’re right about the fact that nothing is being done to stem the tide of its use, especially soy oil which is is EVERYTHING (including many supplements) and that makes me angry since we know it’s bad. People are trying to buy soy free products as best they can, but it’s difficult when the stuff is everywhere. Same with corn. Lots of things have a derivative of either corn or soy or both. It’s hard to buy something as innocuous as a dozen eggs when you have no way of knowing for sure if those “organic” eggs came from chickens fed “organic soy” which I don’t trust any more than I trust regular soy. I avoid the stuff like the plague. We buy our eggs from a local farmer and we’ve actually been there to see how & what they feed their chickens. He has more customers than he can handle.

            Nevertheless, don’t expect the USA to do anything anytime soon about getting rid of soy or corn in foodstuffs. It’s all too tied up in corporate red tape because those crops are big money. Why couldn’t they choose to grow something healthy over something crappy? Beats me.

            WAPF was doing a “study” (or whatever you want to call it) about prisons using soy-based everything in their cafeteria-styled meals. I have no idea how that turned out because I haven’t heard a word about it in at least two years.

          • Pete

            Carolyn,

            “Not trying to defend anything or anybody”

            Except that you were, thats plain from looking at your statement. And not just defend, but attack and cast doubt on those who claimed to have problem or be harmed by FCLO.

            I really don’t care whose side you’re on, but its funny you proclaim to be neutral while making arguments were mirroring exactly Sally F’s talking points in her Q&A. I bet you covered 3/4 of them or more in the first comment. You might as well as just quoted her piece verbatim.

          • carolyn

            actually pete, you’re a paranoid idiot! i haven’t heard a thing sally F has said. i am simply a person who gets david’s blog and i asked a simple question about the whole messy controversy. and as a completely unattached (except that i admit to taking the dreaded FCLO which i buy from amish farmers) person, i am disturbed by the hysteria and anger that seems to be building around this.
            but i really can’t say anything because as long as i don’t entirely and blindly agree with your stance, i must be defending the “enemy camp”
            i’m happy to have rational conversations with D. Smith and Steve Tallent and if my chiropractor learns anything and shares it with me, i’ll be happy to report as per Steve’s request.
            but i have no more words to waste on you, sir. for all i care, you can convince yourself that i am Sally F herself, posting under an assumed name. you’d be wrong, or course, and crazy but that’s your problem

  • Karen

    David thank you once again for hitting the topic square on the head. The mishandling of this by the both WAPF and GP is stuff you can’t make up. At this point, I no longer see a way to fix it without a major housecleaning of the WAPF board. And GP….I don’t think it is fixable.

  • Juliana

    Thank you for posting this. It is unfortunate. I would say that no organization gets it right 100% of the time. Allowances have to be made for the humanness in humans and it is human to err. I can think for myself and will not be purchasing this product.

  • Steve Tallent

    Thanks, David. The more I’ve read of Dr. Price’s quotes over the last few weeks, the more I have been convinced of the three points that you have made and saddened and disappointed by WAPFs behavior in the past and especially by their response to this situation. They seem to be doubling down on poor decisions and recommendations. They were supposed to be the gatekeepers. If anybody was supposed to know what Dr. Price recommended it was them, right?

    • Karen

      I’m getting the feeling they haven’t actually read what Price wrote …….certainly not on cod liver oil. And it’s not hidden away since all the quotes that Price-Pottenger put into the ebook “What Dr. Price Really Said About Cod Liver Oil” came right out of his book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. Wouldn’t they have read that carefully?

      • Ron Schmid, ND

        In a previous post, someone said I had become the Weston A. Price Foundation’s “Poster Boy for Stupidity.” Pretty catchy. At nearly seventy, and lucky to be here at all, I’ll take the “Boy,” anyway. On the stupidity issue, let me first post a quote from Kaayla Daniel’s blog today:

        “But the truth is Dr. Ron’s high dose was in keeping with recommendations made by Sally Fallon Morell and others at the Weston A. Price Foundation. As she advised me, “Kaayla, women like you and me need three tablespoons a day to stay healthy, productive and cope with all the stress.” Although I ignored that “extreme recommendation,” many people did — and still do — follow her advice.”

        As Forrest Gump said, “Stupid is as stupid does.”

        I’m thankful that Sally does consider me to be a pretty good writer. She’s written glowing endorsements for both my books, The Untold Story of Milk and my upcoming new book, Primal Nutrition. I’ve valued all her gracious comments, especially this one: “Primal Nutrition presents the principles of healthy traditional diets along with Dr. Schmid’s vast clinical experience. A diet based on these principles should be the main focus of any therapy. These diets have worked for millions of years, and they continue to work today.” I don’t think Forrest Gump wrote books, but he sure could play ping pong. And if I could emulate his character and integrity, well, I’d be okay with that.

        • Karen

          Ron, my dose was 1-2 tsp/day of fclo for years, right in line with the recommendations by WAPF or maybe just a tad higher. And I like you I was faithful to my fclo even if my other supplements sat on the counter. I always took my fclo. I’ve been off it now for 3 weeks and already see some changes for the better with my gut. I am so grateful to you and Kaayla for being willing to question the status quo and step forward.

          I have no problem with mistakes being made, but I do have a problem with cover-ups…… that’s what I feel like is now happening.

        • Lynne

          Sally Fallon Morell clearly has created what she thought was a new, improved version of a “traditional” food. Which is an oxymoron. It can’t be both new and traditional. She didn’t tell us she invented the FCLO product. We all felt a sense of safety when we heard the word,”traditional.” This product was an untested experiment with no track record. We were all guinea pigs. And some suffered.

          Like the car, the Corvair, which was recalled for being found, “unsafe at ally speed,” FCLO should be recalled for being unsafe at any dose. Thank you, Ron, for setting an example for how ethical businesses are run by recalling the product from your customers.

        • Steve Tallent

          I don’t think that the poster of the “Poster Boy for Stupidity” phrase was trying to be mean to you sir, (at least, I didn’t take it that way at the time,) but to point out that WAPF was trying to make you LOOK stupid. Your response is gracious in any event. 🙂

          • Ron Schmid

            Karen, Lynne, and Steve, my thanks to you all. And thanks to many others who have been understanding of my situation and wished me well. Steve, I didn’t take the catchy phrase as being mean to me, I did see that it was said sympathetically. I wish we could go back in time, but now…well, we’ll see who turns out looking stupid. Mark Mcafee, you’ve seen “On the Waterfront,” right? You know the line where the Brando character says, “I coulda been a contender.” Well my friend, you could still be a contender. Wake up.

  • Mark Mcafee Mark Mcafee

    Dr. Amanda Rose…AKA “broom rider”….LOL

    Remember your old nick-name?

    Are you back to your old tricks? Outsourcing was your old nag back in 2006 ( nearly ten years ago ) and it still seems to be your nag.

    FYI….OPDC tried to find partners to extend the brand and bring in more raw milk for products…but no one would join RAWMI ( after 93 letters sent to all Organic dairy producers in CA ) ,allow touring of their farms, embrace consumers and come up to our extreme standards with 300 tests per month. Yes…we test all batches and no…no tests ever match the state or any other test. All tests are singular snapshots of sampled data in time. Two coliform tests taken from the same exact product run rarely match one another. One could be three and the next 9. Or one could be less than 1 and the next from the same batch could be 4.

    We also Test & Hold all products until they are released which takes 14 – 16 hours. AOAC standards just made this possible in the last 24 months.

    Just try….just try and be positive for once. It would be so refreshing. We seem to find you when ever there is carrion and circling vultures. Let me say this….WAP is the best nutritional and health organization on the face of this planet and has done more practical good for people and next generations than any other non profit that I can think of. Please go circle around some other blog or in the alternative…speak some positive. There are so many good things happening. The health of my grand kids was based on Sally’s work, Nourishing Traditions & WAP. This little scuttle will pass and WAP will be stronger and better than ever.

    • Lynne

      Mark, why are you claiming WAPF is the best nutritional organization when a clear cover up has taken place before our eyes? A WAPF FCLO incriminating web page has been taken down. When many complaints came in about the foul smell of FCLO, Sally’s response was that it smelled fine. Does denying the repeated reports of foul smelling oil constitute a defense? Is that the “No, it doesn’t defense?” It’s not working!

    • Pete

      Ah, yes, defend the tribe, no matter how much fraud, dirty tricks, and harm they are behind.

    • Karen

      Mark, personally I absolutely hate to be thinking what I am now about WAPF. I really want it to be “the best nutritional and health organization on the face of this planet”. I really do. But I no longer believe that. It’s not and it’s getting worse. Something is very wrong at the core as these past few weeks are revealing.

      It would be great to be positive, but I think Amanda Rose is echoing what a great number of us feel. It’s hard to be “positive” when you see an organization you loved and supported become so arrogant.

      And by the way I’ve followed and respected your work with your farm in California. I surely hope as you write your closing speech you will consider carefully what Ron Schmid wrote “Well my friend, you could still be a contender. Wake up.” I think it’s good advice.

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    Do not throw the baby out with the bath water…the greater good,…the greater good can not be forgotten or dismissed. This too shall pass. I am not taking sides on this one. I just know the greater good that has been done.

    • Carlie

      Mark, do you really think that you haven’t taken sides on this one? It seems like you’ve sided with David Gumpert whose words you’ve characterized as brilliant and who consistently expresses that he is fairly dissatisfied with the Weston A. Price Foundation.

    • Pete

      If we were to reject CLO in general as a useful supplement, or turn our backs on the truths that Weston A. Price the man discovered; that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

      But asking questions about the lies we’ve been told? Uncovering corruption? Exposing real harm done to the health of people due to the advise and marketing of those who claim to be our allies? Thats not eating our young, thats excising parasites.

      It is true, that in movements there is a tendency for splintering and infighting. But so too is it true that there will be those who will use movements for personal gain at the cost of the greater good and wolves in sheeps clothing.

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    One more thing….all you nutrition lovers, why is it that you are so quick to eat your young when the true enemy just loves to watch our cannibalism. Regardless of any potential mistakes made…the true enemy of us all is highly processed industrial food, GMO’s, Monsanto, big pharma and the FDA. There is nothing positive that can come from further yacking about this subject. Do not forget that!

    • Marietta Pellicano

      I stand with Mark on the “true” identification of the ‘enemy’ of nutrition. These past couple of weeks here have revealed some disturbing findings ,indeed, regarding FCLO. However, like Mark said, it serves no good purpose to throw the baby out with the bath water regarding WAPF. I’m not a professional of any kind, yet intuition has never let me down over the years. I couldn’t ‘buy’ into the concept of “fermented” oils/proteins, so I didn’t engage with FCLO. Yet, I do take a couple of tsp. of CLO daily, because I read that it may help protect my intestinal lining from the now constant drip of bile flowing into it because I had my gall bladder removed years ago. WAPF, from the beginning, has been a true “David” against the Goliath industrial “phood” industry. And individuals like Ron S. have been excellent teachers over the years. But I have never made them “Gods” to the point that my entire nutritional protocols depended on them like “gurus.”The caveat of Buyer Beware stands for all who enter the market place… no matter what the issue/product is at hand. I pray justice is served with this debacle, but it makes me quite ill to see now that some are trying to prophet off this crisis, while others are trying to “kick” individuals the minute a perceived opportunity arises. I do thank David G. for this blog and his professional journalism. It gives events like these some needed structure and a place to vent…which is obviously necessary.

    • David Gumpert David Gumpert

      I’m going to take issue with you on this, Mark. I agree about the “true enemy.” But organizations like the Weston A. Price Foundation and companies like Green Pasture are supposed to be better than that. Instead, they are behaving more like the organizations so many look down on–using authoritarian tactics, avoiding transparency, fudging the facts, covering up. That’s a big part of what makes this whole affair so unfortunate: instead of setting a different, more open, standard, WAPF and GP are just giving us more of the same, and disappointing many people in the process.

      • Lynne

        Mark, by pointing to the so-called “true enemy, you try to divert attention away from the problem here at hand, the misrepresentations made by Sally Fallon Morrell.” You become party to the cover up by saying there’s really nothin’ goin’ on here. Please don’t try to divert us from trying to find at the WAPF truth.

        Also, diverting is by saying we’ve got the issues all wrong profoundly insults those who have been made an effort to get to the truth, and those who have been harmed.

        Please don’t keep telling us tell what our real problem is. This kind of dismissiveness is the exact tactic we are working to get rid of. Assuring us “this will all blow over” is another way of diminishing the importance of this issue. Please don’t keep repeating that dismissal. We will not be dismissed.

      • Karen

        I agree WAPF is one of the biggest disappointments in this entire mess. It’s hard to believe really.

  • Mark mcafee Mark mcafee

    Amanda…for clarification, all of our testing is performed at a state approved lab that is 18 minutes away. These are not on farm tests…..all 300 tests each month are done off site with results emailed in 14 hours.

  • Karen

    Hey……….the search engine onibasu.com no longer has the WAPF chapterleaders yahoo group on it.! Are you kidding me? For over 10 years, Onibasu has kept archives of the chapterleaders list so any of us could see this vast database of knowledge And now it’s gone. Poof just like that now that WAPF is on the hot seat, no more full disclosure for the average person.

    If it looks like a coverup, smells like a coverup, walks like a coverup………..

    • Lynne

      Just more cover-ups.This pattern of deception continues.

      • Karen

        Yes WAPF seems to be shutting down information sources rather than increasing them. This is mighty disconcerting and smacks of a big cover-up. So the question is why does WAPF need to have a cover-up?
        A cover-up of what?

        Onibasu has been carrying the wapfchapterleader’s group archives for over a decade and it’s was searchable by anyone. It was a wonderful resource of valuable information. I used it often to learn from experts so I was shocked to see it now missing. It was on onibasu a few days ago. Why take it take that off now? Maybe something is in those archives that needs to be kept secret? I can see any no other reason to remove this group suddenly when it’s been happily used by many of us for years and years.

        • Steve Tallent

          Maybe there was CLO dosing information in there that was inconsistent with their new stand of “we recommend a maximum of 1tsp per day. Anybody that took more than that is an idiot and certainly didn’t get their information from us . . . .”

  • Cathy

    I think part of the problem is that Fermented Cod Liver Oil is pitched by WAPF as a sacred food. What could be wrong with a sacred food? Something must be wrong with me if it doesn’t agree?

    I’ve been wondering if WAPF isn’t practicing the same type of protectionism they abhor at the FDA…where apparently the FDA protects the status quo pasteurized milk industry at the expense of new and upcoming raw dairies. I heard that Rosita EVOO folks had to make a concerted effort to be considered in the “Best” category alongside FCLO.

    For more insight – take a look at the WAPF shopping guide. All the foods are listed once, but, FCLO is listed not once, but three times. Same product, just three different sellers, GP, Dr. Ron’s and Radiant Life. No other food is listed by vendor. Favoritism? Protectionism?

  • Jim Schmechel

    I believe Dr. Price would be extremely disappointed with what is going on right now. Let’s think about this person’s character. He was a scientist, highly interested in nutrition, and wanting to disseminate his scientific research to benefit people around this planet. He did extensive scientific testing on cod liver oil, and published his findings for all to see. His research has been available publicly for decades.

    Fast forward to a time beyond his death, and we have a non-profit organization whose mission is to:

    “The Weston A. Price Foundation is a nonprofit, tax-exempt charity founded in 1999 to disseminate the research of nutrition pioneer Dr. Weston Price, whose studies of isolated nonindustrialized peoples established the parameters of human health and determined the optimum characteristics of human diets. Dr. Price’s research demonstrated that humans achieve perfect physical form and perfect health generation after generation only when they consume nutrient-dense whole foods and the vital fat-soluble activators found exclusively in animal fats.”

    http://www.westonaprice.org/about-the-foundation/about-the-foundation/

    disseminate his research……

    So in some ways that has happened, but the organization has reached far beyond this, and drifted away from Dr. Price’s research. In fact, I was at my local WAPF chapter meeting last night, and we ended up talking about EMF radiation. Um, what part of Dr. Price’s research on nutrition covers EMF???? Clearly the organization has drifted away from disseminating Dr. Price’s research.

    So, another non-profit organization, PPNF posts an article recently disseminating Dr. Price’s research. Which is what WAPF was supposed to be doing all along. Then the vice president of WAPF points out that the organization is not necessarily doing what it is supposed to be doing, and not acting scientifically. All hell breaks loose, and a community is in uproar. An organization is now defensive, and in danger of being fractured, or worse.

    What would Dr. Price do? He would point us back to his research, and instruct us to continue educating people about his discoveries.

    He may call for his name to be removed from anything that does not relate to his research. Who could argue with this idea? If it isn’t his research, why is his name on it?

    We need to go back to his findings, and think scientifically, and act scientifically, with the purpose of the benefit of all people on this planet. Put aside our profit motives, and focus on furthering health for all humans, and all people born in the future.

    Nutrition and Physical Degradation. Not just a title for a book. It is a focus. It can save lives!

  • L

    I can’t find any “tradition” of FCLO past nine years ago, despite what we read on the label about Vikings.

    And the daily allocation to Roman troops? And Granny? Can someone provide citations for this advertising?

    If FCLO was such a tradition wouldn’t information about it be easy to find?

    Right now, FCLO appears to be an untested experiment on the WAPF followers. Can somebody correct me if I’ve missed the documentation of Vikings, Roman troops and Granny?

    • Steve Tallent

      I have seen a reference in an old text that seemed to indicate that in the absence of a better oil, a dark, FLCO-like oil was used, but it wasn’t apparent that it was derived by the same means. Also that some doctors preferred the dark oil for treating their patients. From the same text it seems that most did not. I have not seen any citations to support the other assertions.

  • Randy

    To those who complain about government regulators getting involved, remember that (when they function as intended) they are there to protect the most vulnerable (and gullible) consumers from exactly this type of economic predation and abuse of trust. Whether you ascribe this situation to carelessness, ignorance or greed, the bottom line is that self-interest frequently trumps the interest of others and necessitates a degree of oversight.
    The potential damage here–whatever it ends up being–extends well beyond WAPF. When it comes to supplements, it is just this type of conduct and related negative PR that gives the industry a bad name and undermines all the potential good it can do, and all the good people trying to do it.
    The unfolding “coverup” is only going to worsen the ultimate damage. Very sad on many levels.

    “Pride cometh the before the fall.”

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