There have been a couple of very interesting glimpses into the real world of suspected pathogens and regulation around raw milk this weekend.
First and foremost, there is Scott Freeman’s disarmingly candid account (on the second page of comments, following my previous post) of what’s happened at his Kinikin Corner Dairy in Colorado (logo pictured above) since he began learning about possible campylobacter illnesses from among his shareholders. Before I say anything else, I want to thank Scott for sharing his experience. He’s dealing with a huge amount of stress and uncertainty right now—the Colorado Health Department’s lab analysis of his milk hasn’t yet come back—yet he took time to share with us. He could have shut down his phones and gone radio silent, but he didn’t. Very brave.
Big picture, what I get from his account is both the huge amount of responsibility Scott feels and his determination to do the right thing. He’s not defensive, nor is he locked into a particular ideological approach.
Three other things stand out here:
- Scott wants to learn from this experience. He honestly wants to determine if there is a problem and, if there is, to fix it and make sure it isn’t a problem again.
- His shareholders are standing with him. He wanted to suspend distribution, yet “I’m sure to the health department’s surprise, most wanted their milk,” he says. He finally shut off distribution after the state ordered him to last Tuesday.Goes to show, though, that raw milk consumers understand the potential risks associated with raw milk, yet see the health benefits from consuming raw milk as outweighing any concerns.
- If the campylobacter is from his milk, it has affected a small number of consumers—eight out of 175, it seems.
We’re all definitely eager to hear the rest of this story, and I hope Scott will continue sharing.
The second development was the airing by the Food Network last evening of its long-awaited program about raw milk (and raw honey). As Mark McAfee says in his comment following my previous post, Liz Reitzig was the star. She was articulate and animated. “I’m a raw milk freedom fighter,” she says during the program, which shows her traveling from Maryland to Pennsylvania to obtain milk, of her efforts to get raw milk legalized in her home state.
But there were some other stars as well. There was a man picking up his raw milk from a secret Maryland co-op (since raw milk is illegal in the state) who said he had worked for the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for 25 years. “It took me 25 years to realize raw milk was good for me,” he said.
And then there was Ted Elkin of the Maryland Office of Food Protection. At the end of the 15-minute segment devoted to raw milk, Liz pays a visit to Elkin’s office to discuss raw milk. It is obviously staged, and the regulator is unyielding, but the simple fact that a state regulator goes toe-to-toe with a raw milk advocate in public is a first of sorts. When Liz challenges his statement that raw milk inherently contains pathogens, Elkin retorts, “It does, it does, it does.” Not much room for acommodation there.
Ted Elkin better watch out: His mentor at the FDA, dairy czar John Sheehan, isn’t going to take well to such shenanigans. Sheehan won’t even venture into the same building as raw milk advocates.
***
I’d like to share my regret over my previous posting, in suggesting that Concerned Person somehow was complicit with MarlerClark in its posting of documents from the California Department of Food and Agriculture filed in connection with a legal case. I only wanted to draw attention to the documents, and used CP’s link as an excuse.
I also would like to discourage participants here from engaging in personal attacks on others who comment. I know many of us are very passionate about the stakes in the raw milk conflict, but it doesn’t further anyone’s interests to question the personal motives or integrity of others.
david, you should not regret what is so obvious. i’ll also drop the agenda hammer for awhile, my goal is to make readers aware when they’re being manipulated so they can keep their awareness of how easy it is be so used.
co. needs to track the source of their stomach flu outbreak. can they be encouraged to do so? or is it easier to lay the blame on real milk and ignore the evidence outside of that circle of 175 with 8 illnesses?
it will be interesting to see how this develops.
Folks like Blair and the CO organization represent hope…a path to common ground and a voice of reason. That is something to watch!
Scott’s posting was very moving. In contrast to those who alluded that they do not care; it showed great passion and concern.
Will anyone research why only 8 out of 175 became ill? What is different about those who were ill than those who weren’t? Had they been consuming raw milk for a period of time? Many many unanswered questions.
People have accused raw milk because there is a "common link" The same can be said for vaccinations and autisim, there is that common link. Yet no absolute proof that vaccs don’t lead to autisim, for which has increased at an alarming rate, just as MS, ALS and other diseases have.
There is more to this than is being reported…..
That there should be more ‘maniacs’ like MM and Huge…it would be a better world.
Sad and desperate describes Sheehan, Pirelli and the rest of the fear mongering, truth twisting, ‘Russian Roulette’ crowd…
Assuming this campylobacter infection is caused by the real milk, has any of the 8 victims had recent antibiotic use or have any of them used PPIs or H2 blockers: ranitidine, omeprazole, ie Zantac, Prilosec, Nexium, etc?
"Assuming this campylobacter infection is caused by the real milk, has any of the 8 victims had recent antibiotic use or have any of them used PPIs or H2 blockers: ranitidine, omeprazole, ie Zantac, Prilosec, Nexium, etc?"
Kirsten,
I spoke with the HD today and asked if they would ask specific questions (such as the drug question you post above, as well as others) of people who got sick during an alleged raw milk outbreak, and though she said the HD had some of the same questions, there probably would be insufficient scientific data to bother making these questions part of the interview. I asked her if they would do it anyway, and she said no but they had talked about adding similar questions. I had the impression she was taking notes, so maybe some day…on their terms.
I was also told that they had made a positive link to Kinikin Dairy for 2 of the 10 people (of the 10 that drank raw milk).
They had told Scott they were doing a cohort study (which is supposed to compare 2 different groups of consumers, to see if there is a difference in the disease incidence – if I understand this correctly.) When I asked about their cohort study, I was told that the only population they would study is the Kinikin Dairy shareholders. So if they find that 10 more people had diarrhea during the same time period, it’s up to them to decide whether it was the same symptoms as Campylobacter or just a ‘bug’ going through the community. No stool samples will be taken. They will diagnose based on experience of interviewer. Any additional illnesses attributed to Campylobacter in this group will be documented as caused by raw milk from Kinikin Dairy.
In general, the consensus is that it was caused by raw milk, though they admitted that there is no proof, but based on "high numbers" of raw milk drinkers, it is statistically significant.
They took another milk sample today and gave Scott a list of conditions he needs to meet in order to resume production. Meanwhile, all that milk is being dumped, and all his shareholders are out of milk.
-Blair
You can see the interview for Campy patients here:
http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/dc/epidemiology/manual/CampyCaseInv.pdf
You might find this link helpful, although it is from a different state. Note the type of questions asked during campylobacter investigations. Personally, I do not think there is a bias toward raw milk while conducting these investigations. Please note that the invesitigators in this and other states ask many quesitons – no specific focus on raw milk. Most often, we find no link to any specific food…I can think of an example in my state not long ago where the "cause" was listed as unknown after all the interviews – patients had exposure to raw milk, creek water, and undercooked chicken – who knows which vehicle caused the illness – that investigation was dropped – it was not attributed to raw milk because there were other risky exposures. Another one that went to the "cold case" files.
Campylobacter enteritis
http://tiny.cc/LqmQO
From the document:
"c. If possible, record any restaurants at which the case ate, including food item(s) consumed and date(s) of consumption. If you suspect that the case became infected through food, use the MDPH Foodborne Illness Complaint Worksheet (found online at…)"
Also, someone asked earlier about differentiating a Campylobacter infection from other causes of GI upset (like lactose intolerance). The key difference is isolation of Campylobacter from the stool of the patient in combination with compatible symptoms. Campylobacter is not a "normal" background flora in the human gut – it is abnormal and can cause great damage in some individuals. In the past, prisoners were used to study campylobacter symptoms and infectious dose (number campylobacter cells needed to cause clinical illness). Knowing what we know now, I don’t think anyone would intentionally "feed" campylobacter to a human being. Clearly, Campylobacter should be kept out of raw milk and other foods…not used to "boost" immunity…that’s my opinion, for what its worth.
"They will diagnose based on experience of interviewer."
Wow they have MDs or NPs/PAs doing these interviews? Lay people are not allowed to diagnose, that would be practicing without a license. Sounds like nonmedical people "diagnosing" illnesses. That would explain the sloppy investigations. Heaven forbid any govt worker asking questions, not on the form, to get correct data of a situation.
The "virus" is norovirus, and its symptoms can be similar to Campylobacter infection. However, isolation of Campylobacter from the stool of patients that have the symptoms is a definitive diagnosis since humans do not routinely "shed" Campylobacter in their feces. Norovirus ("stomach flu") is always going on in the background, and it is important that the investigators in CO rule it out. It appears they were not sloppy, and confirmed the diagnosis of Campylobacter.
If theyve only linked 2 of the 10 cases to Kinikinwhat about the other 8.or is campy just randomly showing up in ALL raw milk produced on the western slope, and miraculously effecting only raw milk drinkers. Still curious about the two non raw milk drinker cases.and their level of exposure to raw milk drinkers (and their bathroom door handles).
the consensus is that it was caused by raw milk, though they admitted that there is no proof, but based on "high numbers" of raw milk drinkers, it is statistically significant.
As we have seen before, even when there is no proof, the raw dairy is shut down.wonder how this would play with other food producers, if we just shut them down at the first sign of suspicion, with no proofagain we see uneven handed treatment for raw dairies (guilty until proven innocent). Statistical significance can be createdby altering the makeup of the whole group being studied, or tossing questionnaires that dont support the end result you are looking for.
If there is a single case of campy in a non raw milk drinker then the chances of the milk being the cause goes down (especially if that person has no exposure to a raw milk drinker who supposedly has campy). The more non raw milk drinkers affected, the higher the chance that the outbreak is within the general population
They are aware that there has been a ‘bug’ going thru the area that causes diarrhea, but say they can tell the difference. They will only report on this ‘bug’ as it relates to the Kinikin Corner Dairy shareholders – if there is no outside link to another probable cause based on their interviews, they will not investigate beyond this group.
They will not investigate beyond this group because that would prove that the dairy isnt the cause. Without stool samples from non shareholders, the dairy can not be vindicated.
Seems like the raw milk is being made a convenient scapegoat .especially when you consider that the incident has been strung out over weeks (if I read correctly)…
PENNSYLVANIA CHURCH LADIES RAIDED BY "FOOD SAFETY" COPS
By Linn Choen-Cole
Perhaps the home made pies could be, maybe, potentially, possibly, capable of being deemed a public health threat and contain a germ. BOO
"THOSE WHO WOULD GIVE UP ESSENTIAL LIBERTY TO PURCHASE A LITTLE TEMPORARY SAFETY DESERVE NEITHER LIBERTY NOR SAFETY" Benjamin Franklin
Are we or are we not in a struggle for our SOVEREIGNTY [freedom from rule by another] for whoever tells us what we may eat are surely our masters!
Someone please tell me its all about food safety and we will all live happily ever after just like in the fairy tales and Big Brother doesnt exists.
It would be nice if these people could further the cause of science given the startling increase in food-borne illnesses and antibiotic resistance. I realize they need to work within a budget, but we will never find the true cause of these problems if proper testing and questioning aren’t performed.
This HD sounds more sympathetic than most, but they still seem to reach the foregone conclusion that it must be the raw milk. Nailing their case down tight would be of higher value to us all.
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/government/fraud/state/news.php?q=1239658950
It is hard to believe this is happening in our nation the once great land of the free.
http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/509
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1999/599_bug.html
"Concerns About Chicken
Although found in many farm animals, Campylobacter in poultry is causing experts the most concern. There have been several studies pointing to high levels of Campylobacter present on poultry at the retail level, including a recent two-year Minnesota Department of Health study that found that 88 percent of poultry sampled from local supermarkets tested positive for the bacteria.
"The retail study was in collaboration with the Minnesota Department of Agriculture; their inspectors went to supermarkets throughout the St. Paul/Minneapolis Twin Cities area to cover a variety of supermarket types, from big chains to mom-and-pop stores," says Kirk E. Smith, D.V.M., a Minnesota state epidemiologist who participated in the study.
Many prior surveys have found Campylobacter contamination rates of between 40 and 60 percent, he says. "But 88 percent–this degree [of contamination] surprised even me," he admits.
In studies conducted by the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s poultry microbiological safety research unit, more than 90 percent of poultry tested positive for Campylobacter, in levels ranging from one cell to over a million cells per bird.
Norman J. Stern, Ph.D., research leader for the unit, says the infection of poultry broiler flocks typically occurs at week three in the six-week growing cycle. It’s not unusual, he says, for Campylobacter to infect the entire flock.
Things only get worse by the time the chickens reach the processing plant, he says. USDA studies have found a hundredfold increase in bacteria amounts on the birds’ exterior from that detected on the farm. "The exterior contamination represents consumer exposure," he explains.
http://www.campylobacterblog.com/2009/03/articles/campylobacter-watch/poultry-litter-war-sees-battle-in-denver-remains-unsettled/
"The poultry litter war being waged by Oklahoma Attorney General Drew Edmondson and the mostly Arkansas-based chicken companies originally caught our attention because of its possible impact on campylobacter incidents in the Illinois River watershed."
"AG Edmondson wanted Judge Greg Fizzell, the trial judge, to grant Oklahomas motion for an emergency injunction to stop further application of poultry litter in the Illinois River watershed. Last September, however, Fizzell denied the injunction. He found that cattle and human waste (from failing septic systems) were contaminating the Illinois, but left the poultry litter pollution issue for trial.
When Fizzell ruled, the town of Locust Grove, OK was reeling from an outbreak of E coli 0111, a rare strain, that eventually killed a Pryor, OK man and sickened 313 others. About third of those ended up in area hospitals. All who became ill were linked to the popular Country Cottage restaurant.
After Oklahomas Department of Health failed to link the 0111 to any food or water source, the states investigation appeared to be at a dead-end. Then last month, AG Edmondson raised the possibility that the E. coli 0111 came from private well water contaminated by poultry litter.
Locust Grove is some distance from the Illinois River watershed, but the AGs fingering poultry litter brought the chicken companies down on him in the 0111 outbreak investigation.
All of which made for high drama in the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals this week where AG Edmondson went seeking to over-turn Fizzells denial of the emergency injunction."
Could the application of poultry litter be the actual cause of the Montrose outbreak?
With snow melting and springtime rains falling,the water table in a valley, like the one that Kinikin Dairy is in,rises to the surface of the ground.The soil is saturated and wells can become contaminated by surface water.Springtime is also the time that confined animal feeding operations(CAFO’s) try to get the winter’s accumulation of manure out of the buildings and spread on the fields.Application of manure from tens of thousands of chickens naturally results in over application and runoff into streams and rivers.Seventeen miles north of Kinikin Dairy is a monstrous poultry farm owned by Fostor Farms.It would be surprising if people living in this small valley did not have springtime outbreaks of campylobacter associated diarreah.
It appears from the map that the river in this valley runs from north to south,carrying runoff from Foster Farms towards Montrose.Scott ,please correct me if I am wrong.
It may be that the well water at the Dairy has campylobacter in it ,or that the cow’s drinking water is contaminated or even more likely that the Dairy is just a scapegoat,just someone to blame this outbreak on.Putting the blame for this outbreak on the giant chicken farm ,where it obviously belongs, would not be politically popular.Our attention is purposely distracted from the real cause of these illnesses so that a few people can grow enormously wealthy at the expense of our children’s health and future.
It would be helpful to have DNA fingerprinting results for these Campylobacter isolates in Colorado. If they all match, that strongly suggests a common source. However, many states do not conduct genetic fingerprinting of Campylobacter like they do for E. coli O157:H7.
BTW, while the knee jerk reaction to deny raw milk outbreaks (say the health department faked the results and blamed raw milk erroneously) by some raw milk advocates to may be empowering for those involved in the movement, it likely sets things back in terms of convincing regulators to expand access to raw dairy. All these "what if" scenarios lack credibility. What if the Peanut Corporation of America was framed by the government? What if it wasn’t peanuts, but chicken or maybe it was the spinach?
IMHO, the raw milk movement could make progress on the food rights issue because it makes a lot of sense, but so long as people are denying that outbreaks occur, and making statements about the unimportance of sanitation in raw milk production, the regulators probably won’t come to the table to even start a dialog.
Edmundson is running for Governor.
I’m not quite sure you can really call this an outbreak unless DNA fingerprinting is done and the same strain turns up multiple times. Couldn’t PulseNet be tapped to do this?
Also, I must’ve missed out. Has anyone here stressed the unimportance of sanitation in raw milk production? That’s insane.
I agree that the water on the dairy should be checked., but don’t know if CO does testing of the farm environment other than the milk samples. In some states, cattle feces, water, milking equipment, etc. are studied. during an outbreak investigation. Depends on the resources from location to location how hard they look for the "source" on the farm.
No one has mentioned if DNA fingerprinting was done. There isn’t much point in doing a lot of testing for Campylobacter on the farm other than the milk if they do not have a DNA fingerprint for the outbreak strain. Campylobacter isolates are often thrown away by clinical labs before the health department ever recognizes that there is an outbreak . Hopefully the isolates in CO were availalbe, and the strain type will be on PulseNet, as you said. The confirmation of an outbreak when there are fewer than 10 illnesses is more tenuous if the strains from the different patients are not shown to have the same genetic pattern.
Here’s one of the sanitation quotes that seemed worrisome from a public health perspective. Let me know if I’m reading it out of context because I think cleanliness is a very large part of raw milk safetty. State reports posted here in the past showed that the California dairy’s cows had Campylobacter and E. coli O157:H7 in their feces despite being organic and grass fed and on pasture. I’m all for grass-fed and pasture-based systems and preferentially buy animal products raised in non-confinement operations…however, it is not a replacement for cleanliness and sanitation when producing a raw food.
http://www.thecompletepatient.com/journal/2009/4/6/sore-loser-did-the-fda-ghost-write-the-connecticut-ag-chiefs.html?currentPage=3#comments
Remember that the cleanliness of milking is a very small part of overall raw milk safety.
The bigger and more important part is making sure that the environment of the cows is producing pathogen free manure etc. You want the right bugs in the corrals and pens and pastures. Thats what is missing so often. Milking is not a sterile process….nor should it be. Thats what shut down Alta Dena. They just relied on super clean milking while their cows spent their lives on piles of manure and under shades and being treated with antibioitics and eating grain. Clean milking practices are a small part of the totality of raw milk safety.
April 9, 2009 | Mark McAfee
" BTW, while the knee jerk reaction to deny raw milk outbreaks (say the health department faked the results and blamed raw milk erroneously) by some raw milk advocates to may be empowering for those involved in the movement, it likely sets things back in terms of convincing regulators to expand access to raw dairy"
If the raw milk was found to have the same strain of campylobacter as the outbreak strain ,would that mean that it was the source of the outbreak?Couldn’t it just as well mean that it ,along with all of the other ill people, was contaminated from another source?A few simple water quality tests of water running off of Foster Farms poultry manure saturated fields should confirm what the source of this outbreak truely is.
This investigation by the health department has only one purpose.That is to distract our attention from the obvious.
This is not a problem that is confined to Montrose Colorado.It is happening to us all right now.The ground is saturated from snow melt where I live and it is raining now.All of the CAFO’s are emptying out their winter storage of manure onto saturated fields.Where I live the CAFO’s house hogs.On certain days the creaks smell from the hog manure in them.Is the real solution to this problem simply pasteurizing milk???
BTW, while the knee jerk reaction to deny raw milk outbreaks (say the health department faked the results and blamed raw milk erroneously) by some raw milk advocates may be empowering for those involved in the movement, it likely sets things back in terms of convincing regulators to expand access to raw dairy. All these what if scenarios lack credibility.
1. There is ample reason to suspect knee jerk reactions on the part of medical caregivers and departments of health. Now miguel has given a very plausible theory as to how a flush of campylobactor might come THROUGH the Colorado cows, from a dirty chicken operation. Should the outbreak be linked to the dairy, is there a significant chance that the local DH would think to track it any deeper than the milk?
2. The point of many comments here and elsewhere is that true health is achieved by avoiding imbalances. In the case of infectious disease (and perhaps cancer, allergies, and chronic disease as well) it is clear to me that maintaining a strong community of good bacteria in soils, foods, food animals, and humans, is key to health. The pattern of fighting disease offered by our medical and regulatory community is at odds with that reality. But I am being advised to sooth these doctors and regulators lest they retaliate and limit my access to raw milk and other raw foods.
In a nearby farming area a major ag corporation is building massive hog production facilities. The buildings are hugeGod only knows how many hogs will be squeezed into them. The hogs are routinely fed antibiotics (euphemistically called subclinical antibiotics). Periodically the hogs and their pens are showered down, and the washed-off manure and urine collects in a massive basin below. That mixture is then spread on local fields.
I discovered yesterday that a local farm, which happens to be holding a steer I own on one of their pastures, fertilizes with the hogwash. Until yesterday, I was blissfully ignorant about my steers habitat. (Part of the reason I was confident about the health of the pasture is that the fields are regularly hayed off by a local organic dairy farmer. This is allowed under the organic rules.) So now my own organic meat is being spoiled by unnatural antibiotics in the soil. But no worries. The regulators will protect me by demading sterility in my food.
I think Mark was simply emphasizing his holistic approach to dairying. I don’t think he believes that sanitation in the milking parlour isn’t extremely important, but absolute sterility does have some drawbacks in any system.
The NYT has an article about another diarrhea-causing organism that has become a serious problem due to overuse of antibiotics: C. difficile. Clostridia can survive for years in soil, unlike Campylobacter. So it’s wise to pay attention to an animal’s living conditions – as Dave has just pointed out. This isn’t done on conventional dairies, so I think Mark was just trying to distinguish himself here.
I was told by a person that used to work in some capacity with our local health and/or medical community that Montrose experiences a spike in campy illnesses every spring when irrigation starts. Maybe the chickens are responsible for that one. We also had a shareholder tell us their kids were very sick with campy like symptoms, but tested positive with strep. In my next visit with the HD, I will ask about this.
Kirsten, I believe the HD was only going to talk to my shareholders. I’m sorry if my comments indicated otherwise.
Alexis here are to links to the TV interviews, I’m trusting they are still active.
http://www.montrosepress.com/articles/2009/04/09/news/doc49dd71c5b4463644819059.txt
http://www.krextv.com//index.php/site/article/montrose_dairy_farm_on_hold/81502349/
Yesterday’s visit by the HD went well. Conversations had some humor in it and we all agreed though about the seriousness of people getting sick no matter the source. The HD broached the subject of dialog between them and our RMAC group. We may be in for some true progress.
Thanks for everyone’s input!
Scott Freeman
Thanks for being so generous and sharing information about your farm on this blog. I hope everything works out for you and your family. Some may not believe this, but few people that I know in food safety or disease investigation take any pleasure in hurting someone’s business (or having an outbreak to begin with). The ones that do shouldn’t be working in public health. The situation is stressful for everyone – the food producer, the patients, and the investigators.
Dave M.,
I think your concern about the hog "wash" on your bull’s pasture is justified. The massive amounts of animal waste from CAFOs is of great concern to public health, as well as proponents of sustainable agriculture. I think this bill has been posted here before (and it is off topic from raw milk):
U.S. Rep. Slaughter Introduces Bill to Curb Excessive Use of Antibiotics in Nation’s Food Supply
http://www.louise.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1106&Itemid=1
Also, there was an interesting article in the Ethicurean today about a new book on MRSA – I plan to read it when it comes out.
http://www.ethicurean.com/2009/04/14/mrsa/
There is a common and valid reason for pro milk advocates to question the investigation of alleged outbreaks. We have seen before the uneven handed treatment, and the rush to judgment that many state authorities take with raw milk dairies. Shutting down businesses with no proof, altering data collection to not get the full picture, selective victim interaction….and more. That the responsibility for lack of advancement on raw milk issues is only due to the raw milkers skepticism of said authorities is totally wrong…and can only come from someone who fails to see the raw milk side of the equation. There is just as much responsibility on the other side of the fence….the unwillingness to speak the truth about raw milk, the tendency for anti-health PR opportunities every time someone gets sick, the general, predatory nature of the regulators…fosters an environment that isn’t conducive to agreement. Even in a pretty progressive state as CO, we see deficiencies in the investigation…. they have seemed to have one result in mind and have tailored the investigation to get that result. That there is no proof yet that the dairy is responsible doesn’t even seem to matter.
Denying an occasional outbreak, or denying the truthfulness of safe raw milk production AND the health benefits that it can bring…take your pick. That one side is more responsible than the other is a worthless opinion…..just as is your attempt to take two intelligent, progressive farmers and try and cast them as ranting lunatics…..pretty shallow if you ask me.
It certainly isn’t off topic to talk about antibiotics in animal feed and MRSA.These problems are a direct result of CAFOs.The destruction of water and soil health caused by CAFOs is very much related to the safety of raw milk.We need clean water and healthy soil to produce food that doesn’t make us sick.Small diversified,sustainable farms are the answer to the health crisis we are facing.Direct farm to consumer connections make small farms possible.We have to stop the routine use of antibiotics in CAFOs or there will be no healthy soil or clean water left.Already organic farmers are becoming more dependent on manure from these CAFOs to maintain soil fertility.This makes it hard to have confidence in produce that is certified organic.
Have you antiraw dairy folks ever talk to any of the numerous victimized raw dairy farmers and their families and listened to their painful personal experiences at the hands of TPTB. Its OK to use lying undercover agents raids guns badges confiscation of private property and court orders to conquer and subdue peaceful farmers for selling raw milk?
Why is it that raw dairy is deemed a very dangerous food health hazard to "sell "but not for a cow owner to consume themselves? Any money trail here?
IMHO and experience Raw Dairy is the King of all foods and there is no other!
my life long experience forces me to certain conclusions, after many years of denial and internal struggle to not acknowledge reality i have (a lot of years ago) finally gotten it.
"it" is this: it is impossible to teach someone a truth/fact/reality when their job requires that they not understand that truth/fact/reality.
you may balk at such a rational and conclusion and you may want to pound your fist of authority and insist it’s me that is misguided, but let me tell you with complete confidence that i will not waver and i will stand toe to toe with you and if need be shout you down everytime you attempt to re-rail your job required reality and position.
you will be forced to attempt to have me removed from the meeting room as disruptive. you may succeed. but as more and more folks are waking up to the truth of what’s happening in our country someone will take my place and others will join in, and others and then more.
belive it or not I AM THE SILENT MAJORITY. i’ve spent my life worrying about me and mine, i’ve expected gov’t to be doing the same and supporting me and mine as we work to improve our lives, provide jobs, expand business and serve our comunity.
i now am a farmer, i farm grass to raise food animals and i farm the inputs needed to support those animals. my long background in carpentry, electrical, plumbing, machanics, (what used to be known as the "noble trades") is what allows me to farm like this. i could never afford to hire tradesmen to do this work for my farm as the profits are not there to pay them. i have to be able to do it myself or not at all.
so now all of you representing TPTB need to know and understand that more and more of us who make up the silent majority are done with you. we have watched and watched, grumbled under our breath for years and decades: "what are these boneheads in gov’t doing, they are strangling freedom and liberty and building unsustainable systems".
your jobs require that you not understand the real world, but instead you use a model of the world made up by yourselves. a model that doesn’t work. a failed realtime experiment with all americans as the test subjects.
my job now has expanded, as has everyone’s who considers themselves a member of the silent majortiy. we are forced to take on additional responsibilities. primarily to push you all out of our way, to make you irrelevent to our day to day life and to restrict your ability to continue on the path you have so well worn these last 5 decades.
in short: we are taking back our liberty. i know you don’t like that, i know you’ll resist. but in the end you will comply, you must comply. we are the PEOPLE. you work for us.
understand. (period) no question mark, no debate, no compromise. this is the way it it is going to be. we will find real food, we will rebuild health, our comunities our nation. no one can do it for us, we’ve proven that for ourselves by letting you (TPTB) try for at least the last 50 years.
if need be we’ll confront you with pitchforks, for now we’re trying to get you to understand via things like tea parties and civil disobedience. and blogs like this one on the internet.
you need to listen and understand what is happening. we the people do have all the power, we loaned it to you (TPTB) you’ve squandred it. now we’re taking it back.
Communication and outreach are essential to both parties. If small farmers don’t interact with their ag officials and let them know what they need, they allow corporate interests to supercede them.
It’s sometimes hard to get off the farm when you’ve got a day job too, but you have to attend ag events in order to stand up and be counted, and ag officials should be listening to you, not Conagra or Monsanto.
The victimized farmers also have a story to tell and its not pretty.
I am not saying that the antiraw dairy folks are all bad or TPTB are all bad for I supported TPTB for many many years UNTIL a severe health crisis forced me to open my eyes to TRUTH about real food and the monster we call the SAD.
BUT what is the track record of TPTB [USAD, FDA, CDC, AMA, IRS, NEA, IMF, WTO, UN and all the other important sounding acronyms}?
TPTB policies over the last 7 decades have severely reduced the number of the small family farms TPTB policies has brought the richest nation in the history of the world to INSOLVENCY. Our food system is nutritionally bankrupt our monetary system is financially bankrupt and we are morally bankrupt.
Well said H Betcha I stand beside you and will no longer willingly or thru deception GENUFLECT to TPTB
Montrose Dairy Must Abide by Conditions After Illness Outbreak by Mike Wiggins
http://www.gjsentinel.com/hp/content/news/stories/2009/04/14/041509_4a_raw_milk_illness.html
No double standard for raw milk? If the rest of the food system was subject to the raw milk standards would we have any food to eat? But of course raw milk is far more dangerous than all other foods right?
Sounds like the raw milk will be flowing again at the Colorado dairy, and the short-term requirements appear reasonable. Indeed, pathogen testing was a cornerstone of the raw milk bill in CA (SB 201), which was strongly supported by raw milk advocates. While I tend to agree that the "raids" on unlicensed facilities appear to be out of proportion in some other states, this arrangement in CO with a legal raw milk dairy, in the aftermath of a relatively small, hopefully contained outbreak, seems like a good approach.
Hey, could be worse…the Peanut Corporation was closed down and the Texas plant is facing a record fine. Given the fact that there were 9 deaths, 100’s (probably 1000’s) of illnesses, and an enormous recall, the action with PCA is in proportion to the damage they caused. Not to mention that the owner had to go before Congress and is under criminal investigation.
Texas health regulators hit peanut processor with record fine
The Plainview peanut plant linked to the national salmonella outbreak this winter was assessed $14.6 million in fines the biggest cash penalty ever levied by state health authorities, whose inspectors had found rodent bodies and droppings along with contaminated products there.
http://www.star-telegram.com/100/story/1310141.html
kirsten, I didn’t see where anyone stressed that sanitation was unimportant. Poor sanitation is rampent at the CAFOs, yet the govt allows it to be so. If they don’t do a DNA then they’ll not know if the strains are the same. Guilty without proof.
"The state is contacting approximately 200 people who are participants in the dairys cow-share operation. Those participants buy a share of a cow and receive raw milk in return."
If the cows are privately owned what gives the state the power to shut them down or forbid them from getting what is thiers? 200 people own the cows and 8 who drank the milk got sick? Yes indeed, that proves it was the raw milk. Don, don’t be silly, of course raw milk is the most dangerous food around. People have dropped dead from consuming it for centuries, just think, soon the 40000+ in Ca will be dropping like flies.
"national salmonella outbreak this winter was assessed $14.6 million in fines "
In the end, it will be interesting to see what the final "fine paid" is. Undoubtly less that the $14mil. Didn’t those "inspectors had found rodent bodies and droppings along with contaminated products" find this crap over a period of time and did nothing? They should be fired and fined themselves. Hugh, Don and the others thank you for sharing your knowledge, your words have been greatly educational/informative.
Apparently, from good sources, we have found that the rats were natural, (expected in a peanut operation – like poop on walls in the milkng parlor of a raw milk operation). But, rumor has it that the cirtters had traveled back and forth from a commercial chicken operation and the bacteria they picked up killed their lactic acid bacteria. They could have safely crapped on the peanuts, but alas, the rat shit was polluted. with bad bacteria that overwhelmed the good bacteria in the rat crap Parnell (the President) paid me massive monies to promote this defense of his behavior: testing for a pathogen, finding a positive, and retesting until it comes out negative. Waiting on a recall until there are dead people. Why recall a product with a postive pathogen test if there isn’t any bodies? Ridiculous. As defense, maybe we PCA shoud do forensics on the rats to check their lactic acid bacteria counts (and, similarly, check the guts of the patients that got sick and/or died to see if they were immune enough to eat peanuts).
I’m being very annoying,, but super-imposed your arguments with raw milk in this context. It would be better to problem solve vs. deny the outbreaks, IMHO. Folks might come to the table, but not if you are carrying pitchforks.
Look at the whole picture how did we get here?
And you want us to sit down and compromise with our poisoners they who have commited these crimes against us all? One cannot make a deal with a devil and win.
As I said before and will say again TPTB tell me that "the elderly should never ever consume raw dairy for any reason" and at least in my case they are utterly wrong.
The main stream must be rejected if we are to prosper and be healthy.
WE ARE NOT THE ONES CARRYING THE PITCHFORKS.
The TRUTH is all that matters and its not easy to find in this ocean of lies we are all a drift on.
The answer is REAL CHANGE person by person family by famly farm by farm. Will we do it or be cast into the dust bin of history as happened to all other world powers. Statistics are not on our side. But we can try.
you can’t see, again because your job requires you not see. when or if you ever do see you’ll have to leave your job because you’ll be (like us) in conflict with said jobs requirements.
how can anyone of reasoned evaluation of this situation (standoff) consider being coorporative with you?
any cooroporation we offer is ignored by you, maybe not directly, but in your actions. i don’t care what you say. i care what you do. and what you do is exactly what you’re doing.
you need to be forced to answer the question as it relates to individual liberty.
are you, in the most vanilia way it can be posed: for or against individual liberty. no if, ands or buts allowed. are you for or against individual liberty?
it’s balck and white: if you say yes i am for liberty then you must therefore be against the powers that be. because tptb are showing with their actions that they are against liberty.
if you say no. well then you’re against the republic of america as it’s defined by our constitution and bill of rights.
any conditional answer is against liberty. liberty can not be conditional.
i don’t care if you can’t/won’t understand this simple principle, what i care about is that more and more real americans are answering the question with a clear understanding of what liberty really means. that done the only conclusion a real american can reach is that you are the one out of place. you are the one who is responsible for hindering our freedons and rights.
you can tout all the fear mongering dogma you like, "it’s for the children" "the elderly need protection", "pathogens are bad and must be eliminated" and on and on.
it’s a broken record anymore. it’s falling on deaf ears. people are waking up and realizing just how badly us gov’t policy has been for us as individuals and our nation as a whole as it has been captured and is controled by big corporate interests who have no motive for me to be healthy and completely free to choose. corporate interests are advanced if my choices are limited to their specific offerings.
your battle is uphill anymore, the tide is turning and the thinking folks in this country are no longer willing to let your ideals trump their liberty.
your real job is to support and enable the people not control their choices. where you went wrong was in assuming otherwise. power corrupts. you’ve been corrupted.
I sure hope Scott doesn’t knuckle under this obvious persecution. Citizens must have the right to secure private food supplies. I see a good test case here, if there is the backbone for it. I’d start providing the owners with their profits. It would be good also if the shareholders sued the state over this…what right does it have to interfere with a private corporation, and it’s desemination of it’s gains to its owners? While it is important for the state to monitor the public food supply, what reasoning do they have to interfere with a private one? Share agreements should effectively eliminate state involvement.
That there was no wide spread investigation, with the general public being tested, its obvious this was a railroad job against the dairy. I don’t doubt that there was a campy outbreak….but I do have questions whether the cause was the dairy, and it’s presence in the general public….pity that those intended on protecting us didn’t ask that question. I guess we should just believe as Lyke tells us.."they can tell the difference, no stools needed’. Hogwash (pun intended Dave).
It’s time to fight back…hope the resolve to do so is evident there in CO. Raw milkers have better intestinal fortitude…it’s time to use it.
This incident may be best used educationally and the fight saved for the day we need to help direct congressional change. So far we have a good relationship with the Colorado Health Departments and I still believe there is middle ground both sides can work towards.
Scott Freeman
We do however need to be carefull and mindful of a warning thats comes from a most unusual source.
"In order to control the opposition we must lead it" Vadimir Lennin
A sobering quote for our present day circumstances and is that what we saw yesterday the opposition being distracted and led?
This seems to be ignored. What right does the state or feds have?
Sylvia,
Ask the general public and the politicians. Every time there is an outbreak they look to the government and ask "why did you let this happen?" They scramble to respond with various food safety bills and soundbites about how the government isn’t protecting the public or doing their jobs.
Raw milk a scapegoat? LMAO – your industry is a pain in the a**. If choosing an easy target, first thing would be to identify a food that doesn’t have an entire blog devoted to it that draws attention to every investigation. Raw milk sometimes causes illnesses, and "we" are stuck dealing with it. Maybe TPTB should fake the results and blame something else anytime raw milk causes a problem – it would make life easier, but would not be honest.
The irony, I’ve become sympathetic to the unfairness of "bans" when the public desires to have access to this product. To that end, I have explored this blog and others to better understand the issue and ways to treat raw milk like other foods…find compromise and make change. It would seem, that in this process, I have become the enemy because I don’t agree with every statement made by Raw Milk Powers That Be. Funny, I’ve discovered that this movement has an infrastructure similar to the government they criticize: it’s our way or no way.
Too bad, I suspect there is a mostly silent (and large) membership in this movement that seeks middle ground. And, I still tell TPTB in my world that the bans are unfair and maybe unconstitutional, but no one will listen when the "face" of this movement is a small group of vocal extremists that dictate a reality that borders on delusional.