The onslaught against private food buying groups continue unabated in states from Georgia to Massachusetts to Wisconsin. The latest blow comes in Ohio, where a state judge ruled a few days ago that Manna Storehouse, the cooperative that was raided in December 2008 by armed agents who allegedly held the Stowers family at gunpoint, needs a retail food license.
(The ruling is apart from a civil suit filed by the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund and the Buckeye Institute arguing that the Stowers family’s rights to due process were violated by the raid.)
In the midst of these initiatives, though, the state of Wyoming is in the process of attempting a refreshingly different approach in the form of proposed legislation with the catchy title, “Wyoming Food Freedom Act”. The Wyoming House is holding hearings about the legislation, which would “exempt certain sales from licensure, certification and inspection” if the foods are being served at social events like weddings or sold directly to consumers at farmers markets or roadside stands. Yes, farmers who now must ship cattle hundreds of miles out of state because Wyoming doesn’t have a USDA-inspected slaughterhouse would be able to do on-farm slaughtering, and sell raw milk, but wouldn’t be subject to inspection. Sounds like an element of “freedom” to me.
There’s more, and this comes on the economic side of the private-foods matter. One issue that often gets lost in all the conflict between rights and protection is jobs and income. Harassing buying clubs and small dairies puts at risk the jobs of the people running the buying groups as well as the farmers and their workers who provide the food. This is something public health and ag department enforcers completely ignore, I presume because they all have jobs.
One of the purposes of the Wyoming legislation is to promote something called “Agri-tourism”, which it defines as “a style of vacation that normally takes place on a farm or ranch and includes any farm or ranch that is open to the public at least part of the year. Agri-tourism may include the opportunity to participate in agricultural tasks, including harvesting fruits and vegetables, riding horses, tasting honey, learning about wine and shopping in farm or ranch gift shops and farm stands for local and regional agricultural produce or hand-crafted gifts.”
Now, agri-tourism may sound hokey to some, and it may not even produce great jobs. But sadly, in all the hysteria over food safety, the linkages between small farms and economic development tend to get lost in the shuffle.
Indeed, in Wyoming as well, local public health officials are using scare tactics to lobby against the legislation. According to a local paper, “Casper-Natrona County Health Department Executive Director Bob Harrington is trying to convince the Legislature that passing the Wallis bill would be a mistake. ‘If the law exempts home kitchens, there’s no way to intercept potential risks,’ he said…Harrington is worried that chipping away at the ‘pitchfork to salad fork’ approach with special conditions could put the public at risk for health problems that could range from E-coli to kidney failure or death.” Yes, we’d be playing Russian Roulette with our health.
Mark McAfee of Organic Pastures Dairy Co. prepares to testify on Wyoming’s proposed Food Freedom Act in Cheyenne.Mark McAfee of Organic Pastures Dairy Co. went to Cheyenne to testify before the legislative committee. He reports, “I was the only person to testify for raw milk at the hearings. The health department jammed the hearings and tried to take all of the time that was allotted. The chairman cut them off and demanded equal time for the pro raw milk testimony. I got about 20 minutes to testify and then submitted several critical documents in favor of safe raw milk.” More about his testimony in a local news account.
In addition to the Wyoming legislation, there is legislation pending in Georgia, Iowa, and Idaho on formalizing rules on sale and access to raw milk. You can bet that many in the conventional dairy industry are becoming ever more nervous.
Why not just get the license like any other business? I suppose their purpose might be to make a point about licensing and promote anti-government views. Personally, I am adding "they have a license" to my list of positive things when choosing a local farmer, and paying the extra price. Some may choose food based on politics, but I’ll put my dollars into local, sustainable farms that can run a business without turning it into a political statement (and probably cutting corners on consumer safety while fighting their political battles).
I must disagree with you….producing a whole and unprocessed food is a very political act.
At no time before in our history has the politics of the nanny state fear control systems and regulation been so involved in our culture.
This culture eliminates the personal responsibility factor for both the producer and the consumer….it is always some one elses fault.
After hearing some true freedom thinkers in action in Wyoming it is indeed refreshing to see perhaps some good old American frontier progress being made. As representative Sue Wallis said…."you can gut shoot a dear….drag it arround town, home butcher it and share it with friends or even donate it to a church….but you can not farm butcher an animal and sell it direct to a trusted consumer. You can not even hold a church picnic without a permit and an inspection. It is time to get the government out of our lives and let local relationships get back to work." This is the kind of American leadershiop missing in America.
I was delighted to speak in Wyoming and it was a pleasure to meet and help Sue and her band of freedom thinkers and doers. They are plain sick and tired of driving five hours each way to get raw milk in Colorado. Time for a change and time for farmers and consumers to look directly into each others eyes and get to know each other again…with out Sheehan and his crownies trying to tax, permit, inspect or regulate us to death.
Are we free or not? Wyoming is trying its best to become free once again.
Mark
You have perhaps the most highly regulated raw dairy in the country, and the largest market. Since the coliform limit and subsequent pressure on outsourcing that you discontinued, your dairy went from multiple outbreaks/recalls/lawsuits, to no problema. It would seem the system is working, eh?
"…and probably cutting corners on consumer safety while fighting their political battles" is just another cheap swipe at small farmers. You say you are on this forum in your free time. What are you cutting corners on while you accomplish this? Your job?
Criticize her words, the generalities she makes, and her positions and opinions… we all have jobs to do, and still find time to post here…she should be afforded the same accommodation for that (although little respect is due her for her content).
She’d be foolish to come out with her real identity…just as any raw milk farmer in a state where the good stuff, and those that produce it, are persecuted would. We all don’t have the same desire for name recognition as Mark or Bob, but an alias doesn’t change the written words and the meaning they convey.
The food freedom movement is gaining steam, and there are states, other than those listed, where legislation is being considered. Critical mass is approaching.
It is amazing how many things you say that I disagree with. It seems we are different species.
Of course the American ideal would say So what! Live shoulder to shoulder, tolerant, accepting, even standing up for your neighbors right to be different." But you wont have it. You would herd us all into YOUR system.
That is wrong wrong wrong, and not just because I others of like mind find your system sour and sad. (Although it is. What sort of world view considers plain, unprocessed milk inherently problematic? What sort of mindset concludes axiomatically that a food absolutely central to humanitys history is no good?)
I dont want to buy bake-sale cookies from a certified kitchen, whatever the hell that is. I want them from Marys kitchen, and Bettys. I dont want to pay the cost of certifications. And I dont want to even THINK that Mary or Betty had a moment of nervousness about some government lackey white-gloving their appliances. For that matter, I dont want anybody stepping between me and another human being when I buy beef, or chicken, or honey, or socks and shirts.
Please stop telling us that all this rule-making and fee extraction and process control and violent enforcement is for our own good. Whatever you tell yourself about the benevolence of this blooming dictatorship, the effect is nothing of the sort. How wonderful is it that the same busybody bureaucracies that are stepping all over our natural rights decide that massive commodity-processing businesses (non-human entities!) can make peanut butter with genetically modified oil derivatives that have been linked to cancer, and not even have to tell us so. (That decision was made, of course, for own good. In their ever-compassionate way, our ag-biz friends convinced our system friends that it would be unwise to panic us poor, uneducated peons into an unwarranted destruction of their income streams.)
Lykke, you are obviously thinking about these things a lot. How do you square up these issues? You say, Can’t a farmer simply heat treat the milk to kill pathogens? [Thats a] win-win for small dairies. Well, no, it isnt.
You say, Why not just get the license? Because I (a bona fide, flesh-and-blood human being) may not WANT to.
You say, I think raw milk, raw meat and poultry are too risky to eat in their raw state. Fine. Go ahead and live according to your beliefs.
You say, Given the choice, I’ll pay more for local animal or plant foods produced in an environmental and animal friendly way. Given the choice? "Given?" By whom?
While we’re at it, why not expand the school lunch program to feed all children all meals and criminalize feeding home-cooked meals to children? After all, a caring parent lacks the large kitchen with extensive safety procedures and college-given knowledge on how to safely and effectively nourish his/her children.
/sarcasm
Thank you for writing about this bill. It is bold! Sue Wallis is a real gem – and a fierce freedom fighter.
Mark’s testimony was terrific, tho slightly rushed due to the Health Dept hogging all the time. The committee was wide-eyed as they listened to his impressive knowledge about bacteria, lactose intolerance, health and whole living food. "Raw milk is like breast milk. Breast milk is raw. It nourishes. Babies need this." Then he shrugs, pauses, looks at them.
Some of you are offended by Mark’s grandstanding. I am so grateful to him for taking the time to fly all over the country and inspire and educate thousands of Americans. I forget how many trips he made last year – was it 59, Mark? 19 this year? I’ve seen him speak at least 5 times, and I’d guess he’s personally advanced the raw milk movement by about 5 years. He shows up, he’s friendly, charismatic, passionate, knowledgeable – and he is not afraid of the big bad FDA. Kudos, Mark!!!
I loved Dave Milano’s post. Keep writing, Dave – I’m listening! Your skillful pen, knowledge, insight, and passion will move us even farther forward!
I drove up to Cheyenne to testify at this hearing, but I was one in the roomfull that did not get to testify. The committee apologized and said we could come back on Thursday or submit via email. (I sent via email.)
Sue Sweeney, Cheyenne WAPF chapter, called and said the bill passed the House Committee 6-3 this morning. Yee-ha!!!
David – I took 5 copies of your book for the committee. My thanks to Sue for carrying these and some nicely prepared brochures to the hearing today. (I had just grabbed a handful of RMAC & WAPF brochures on my way out the door, and asked Sue to give them to the committee on Thursday. She arranged them in plastic sleeves and gave each committee member a copy) .
Then she wrote "Donated by the Raw Milk Association of Colorado" on your "Raw Milk Revolution" books (which wasn’t accurate – Sue purchased these books from me Tuesday on behalf of the Cheyenne WAPF chapter), and asked them to read and pass on.. I am grateful for her help, polish, and selfless support – The Cheyenne chapter ROCKS!
Milk Farmer mentions "approaching critical mass"; Sue said "I think we’ve already passed the tipping point." I think she might be right.
Wallis’ bill is breathtaking. It may lose, but it will be back.
-Blair
I forgive you for what you do not feel or know. The standards under AB1735 hat require less than 10 coliforms have zero to do with food safety. We have not changed on single thing with our milking process. Coliforms come from the milk lines and pumps after the milk is taken from the cows. When we milk cows directly into a bucket we get less than 3 coliforms routinely….when we superclean the milk lines we get the same thing.
News flash….pathogens do not come from clean milk lines. They come from bad environments and sick cows. The state tests OPDC one time per month….and we can fail three months in a row prior to degrade. OPDC qulaity is set by OPDC not CDFA. We test three to four times per week because we care and we do not want to be the last to know when somethings is not up to par.. etc…state standards are the guideline. OPDC responsibilty, volentary internal policies and integrety are what the consumers taste every day. If we were following state standards…we would just need to pass the test one time per month and the rest of the time it would not matter. Trust me….we care and we keep these standards higher than the state could ever enforce coninuously.
Lykke, you are part of the back ground noise that I will choose to ignor. Nothing that you say makes the world a better place or reduces the incidence of lactose intolerance, colds, IBS or ear infections in kids.
About 20 minutes ago…a customer came into OPDC store and bought 20 half gallons of milk. I asked her why she buys our raw milk. She told me that her kids had night marish dreams and could not sleep all night long when they drink pastuerized milk. But when they drink raw milk they sleep well all through the night and no more nightmares or bad dreams. On top of that they have not had a cold or ear infection in two years.
Lykke….I serve a higher purpose….it is all about humanity and health. In the end it is about Karma and goodness.
You make your choices. Let others choose that their children can be healthy and sleep well at night. It would be hard to believe that you…a human on earth… would wish nightmares, colds, ear infections on a child.
Wyoming just made a serious freedom statement with the 6-3 passing of HB 0054.
There is much work to do….but this is a message. Live free or die or perhaps….get your damn government hands off of us all. Wyoming was the first state to provide for the womens right to vote. Perhaps they will be the first state to provide real food freedom to its people.
Mark
It was great to see your smile and hear your voice at the hearings. Having you as a cheerleader behind me was all I needed to preach the raw milk sermon. Thank you for reporting what happened there so others can hear the real story. Thank you for standing up for freedom and the likes of Lykke…..
It is very interesting to see that Wyoming in addition to HB 0054 has also introduced a bill that would permit any Wyoming resident to carry concealed weapons without a permit or other license given by the government.
These people take their rights seriously….both the First and Second amendments. I am impressed. With citizens like this HB 0054 may very well have a fighting chance to become law.
It appears that parts of America are serious about the constution and nutrition. Very liberating combination of personal responsibility and local Jeffersonian economic democracy ie….direct raw milk sales from farmers to heat packing consumers.
Do not mess with my raw milk takes on a whole new meaning!!
Mark
http://www.marlerblog.com/2010/02/articles/lawyer-oped/wyoming-legislature-set-to-pass-house-bill-54-the-bill-marler-full-employment-act-thank-you-sue-wallis/
Bill
Mark — Is that true? Not outsourcing anything at all?
Here’s the math as I understand it:
In 2007 when I helped you with 1735 and saw two different tankers delivering product two times during four visits, you had a customer base of 40K and 325 cows. Your level of outsourcing (at least for butter) was not insignificant at that time — I saw two different trucks with thousands of gallons of milk each in the four different days I was there.
You currently have about 325 cows (though your last scorecard said you were milking 280) and you bought one cow recently with three working teats. You now state that you have 60K customers. Your herd capacity is about 450 based on your public statements. If you had to outsource for 40K customers with 325 cows in the fall of 2007 and you now have 60K customers, the math as I do it says that you will always be outsourcing.
325 cows can’t meet a 40K marketplace
50% increase in cows (over 475 cows) can’t meet a 60K marketplace.
OPDC currently has 325 + one new cow
OPDC can’t meet 60K person market with its own product.
Max herd size is 450
OPDC can never meet a 60K market with the 300 acres of dairy land.
If you are going to outsource continuously, you absolutely must label your products accordingly. I told you that in October of 2007 and even offered to help you write it up on your web page. Since that time you’ve done nothing but dodge the issue and expand your consumer base.
If my math is mistaken, you can clear all of this up by allowing the milk pool branch of the CDFA to give me access to your milk pool records. I’ll do a fair analysis and post the results. I would like to be wrong but the math speaks volumes.
Amanda
Locally, every elected official representing me at the local, state, and federal government DOES know my name…because I am vocal, obstinate, and bullheaded in making sure that their feet are held to the fire on governing in a constitutional manner.
Beyond local, which is where all politics starts, the only folks who have a clue that I even exist are the 750 or so regular readers of my blog (and it covers FAR more that raw milk and politics…learn about yurts there) and those who read my occasional comment here and on a couple of other nutrition and rights sites…and I like it that way.
The only reason I started the GA milk protest was because of their being a need and a vacuum…I filled it. I would have been just as happy for someone else to have done so, but no one stepped forward.
Don’t assume my reasons…you know what is said about assuming…and it damn sure applies here.
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
Bill,
Nice piece of Wyoming humor.
I really do not think you understand Wyoming….these guys will also place you under citizens arrest and boot you out of the free territory. They do not like government meddling or lawyers either. This is the same place that is passing a bill that allows every Wyoming resident to carry a concealed weapon with out a permit.
Lets all remember that the last deaths from milk was FDA PMO regulated and inspected pasteurized milk in MA…they killed three people with listeria and the FDA did nothing. So much for regulations being the grand safety system.
Do not bet on an illness or a ranch with a trout stream to quickly…dreams like this are way premature. Keep on working Cargil and Tyson…they deserve it.
Show me the last deer hunter to get sick from his, kitchen butchered, gut shot dear. Have not heard of that happening ever…thats Wyoming.
Mark
Amanda…..
You can do any kind of magic numbers you want….we feed lots of people every week from 400 stores and 50 buyers clubs. Our trucks are full up and we are getting more cows from funds raised by our consumers. We have not made more than a couple hundred pounds of butter per week for months. The demand is about 4000 pounds per week.
Yes….we have not outsourced any raw milk to make Class 4 products in a long time. Thats why we are so darn short on butter. Those trucks that you saw years ago were bringing in grass fed organic raw milk and taking away organic skim milk. The cream that we took off was being made into raw butter ( class 4 product ).
The outsource issue is dead and gone. We use only our milk to make our products. For better or for worse. The raw butter market has suffered as a direct result. There is no safety issue with raw butter. The state does not even test raw butter for pathogens.
It will not grow any.
All the best,
Mark
All the best,
Mark
I shop at a Whole Foods Market and Henrys in Southern California. I see lots of OPDC butter on the shelves. If youve discontinued outsourcing, I havent noticed a decline in the product being available.
Based on my observations, Amandas math seems to be correct.
cp
Thank you, though, Mark for confirming once again that those trucks were bringing in product for butter to meet your 40K market back in 2007. Doing simple math, it doesn’t seem possible with your land restrictions and milking barn restrictions to have a herd greater than 450 (that’s at least what you and a former employee claim). If 325 cows couldn’t meet the demand of 40K customers in 2007, it’s unclear how 325 cows can meet anywhere near the demand of 60K customers now.
Let’s all think about this for a minute: If OPDC was buying milk for butter in 2007, it’s because it ran out of milk for butter at that time. Its customer base of 40K consumed all of the milk of its 325 cows requiring it to bring in tankers (which can hold thousands of gallons — I mean the tanker trucks, not those little tanks you can pull behind a pick up). It needed thousands of gallons to meet the butter market then. Even if it is no longer stocking the shelves with butter now (though that doesn’t appear to be the case locally and certainly not "for months"), where is it getting the extra milk for the additional 20K customers? The herd size is the same as in 2007 (except perhaps for the poor cow Bu with three working teats). The herd size in 2007 had little or no spare milk for butter based on the quantity of outsourcing I observed.
You didn’t address your colostrum market in your post which you have also had to outsource since at least 2006. I’ve always assumed that your colostrum-lite product was entirely outsourced since it apparently can be outsourced legally and since obviously your 325 cows can’t meet your market demands. Colostrum is not regulated of course and can actually be a bigger safety issue than milk.
Mark, you call it "magic numbers." I call it 3rd grade mathematics. Let’s just clear this all up. Contact the CDFA milk pool office and have them send your records to me. They can send them to David and Blair at the same time. Heck, send them to Bill Marler too since you guys are becoming such good friends.
Amanda
P.S. I assume this issue is why you were kicked out of the Fresno Farmer’s Market. Those markets do have strict rules about producing the product you sell.
The whole discussion caused an epiphany…Dave M, Bob H., milk farmer and others are talking an entirely different language about values in farming compared with Mark M.. Overlayed on that are the politics and the role of a "leader" who has time to promote the raw milk movement. Would it be reasonable to say that there are 2 values in this discussion? Like 2 milks…you have the big, retail monopoly raw dairy model, and the small direct sales model. Seems obvious they should be regulated differently.
I know that I don’t answer every question here, but if anyone has time, could you provide a raw milk producer perspective on this question posed in a previous post:
Can you describe the route by which "good bacteria" get into raw milk, and how you measure whether there is enough good bacteria to call raw milk a "probiotic" food? Obviously, the bacteria do not travel through the bloodstream in a healthy cow and over to the udder…how are they getting from the gut into the milk?
Thanks.
We are in the middle of our legislative session, and I don’t know where in the process each is, but there are actually two new laws being proposed in Georgia this year regarding raw milk.
The first takes my approach, that is, it approaches raw milk from a "rights" perspective and would simply allow folks to make their own decisions about if and where to buy raw milk without the government having a say in the decision, at all, period.
The second is a poorly veiled attempt to placate raw milk consumers without actually letting small producers actually produce and sell raw milk. While technically it would allow for raw milk sales, in practice the regulatory required would be so onerous, both financially and in physical practice, as to make it impossible to be a raw milk producer without the economies of scale, i.e. an OPDC type operation.
Sadly, I don’t think the first has a chance as government nanny state thinking pervades out legeslature and it takes too much power out of government hands,
Frankly I think the second will die as well. It threatens market share of big agri, which pumps a lot of money into our campaign coffers here.
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
Lykke…rules designed for the conventional -mega farm, food processor, wholesaler, grocery store- chain should not apply to a farmer creating food and selling direct to a consumer. The faceless anonymity of mass produced food requires different checks than someone who looks their customers in the eye. The playing field is not level, and as a result the large food conglomerates have successfully kept the small farmer from being successful. In many states this is changing (and I bet you’ll find, when it does happen, no significant increase in mortality from food poisoning). The type of sink I have, or the size of my windows, or type of paper towels I use, have no effect on the lacto-fermented pickles I make for my customers.
Amanda…I believe that you’d get more support for your assertions, even form those that disdain the aspect of outsourcing if you’d be a bit more civil….why must you be so mean?
Do you have suggestion for a "nice way" that would be effective?
Where is the leadership? If I am not handling this right, where are the people who know how to handle it? Where are the people who care about consumer information?
David criticized me heavily in 2008 for how I handled it. Perhaps David should put together a solution to the problem that is more graceful and more effective.
Let’s get some real answers. The milk pool office can provide them.
Amanda
The following example pertains to Georgia law, but I’d imagine other states are similar.
Did you know that the location of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, or ANY personal food, can make a kitchen illegal for commercial food production, regardless of any other consideration?
In my home I have a kitchen that would qualify as a commercial kitchen. (actually I have a really kick-ass kitchen, but that’s a brag for my blog, not here…LOL).
Without describing it in detail, suffice it to say my 3 hole commercial sink, professional range, ceramic impermeable floors and countertops, commercial refrigerator, etc qualify it as a commercial kitchen…as long as ONLY food for sale is prepared there. As soon as I make myself food for personal consumption, however, the kitchen is disqualified.
I could, however, get by with a 12×12 plywood shack in the yardwith a $40 fridge and $25 range from the thrift store, some waterproof paint, and a bathroom lavatory sink from the trash pile at the landfill. THAT kitchen would meet the food safety regulations…as long as I don’t make myself a sandwich in it. This makes sense?
That is just one of MANY stupid rules that make some folks think the regulators have a motive other than food safety.
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
David — Why don’t you erase all of my outsourcing comments on this post and take the issue on yourself in a way that addresses consumer concerns. Consider working with WAPF to find someone to investigate and let us consumers know whose dairy products we have been consuming. If the outsourcing is fine with the leadership, let them make that point so that consumers can understand the reasoning.
Amanda
"Bacteria: Single-celled microorganisms which can exist either as independent (free-living) organisms or as parasites (dependent upon another organism for life).
Examples of bacteria include:
* Acidophilus, a normal inhabitant of yogurt,
* Chlamydia, which causes an infection very similar to gonorrhea,
* Clostridium welchii the most common cause of the dreaded gas gangrene,
* E. coli, the common peaceful citizen of our colon and, upon occasion, a dangerous agent of disease, and
* Streptococcus, the bacterium that causes the important infection of the throat strep throat."
How does "bacteria" get into raw milk? Guess it depends on what you define "bacteria" as. If Acidophilus, is a normal inhabitant of yogurt and yogurt is fermented milk, it must be present in the milk, right? Normal flora.
If the cow eats stinkweed and it affects the milk taste then the milk is mingled with other body fluids within the cow. A simple proof that what the cow eats affects the milk.
If a person gets salmonella, there is the potential to also get a UTI,conjunctivitis, joint pain… Reiters Syndrome. The infection travels through the blood stream and affects organs and other parts of the body.
I am one person who appreciates all the time and energy you have invested uncovering the outsourcing practices at OPDC. I am dumbfounded by the lack outrage within the raw milk community about this issue. Mark McAfee legally has all of his ducks in a row due to loopholes in the laws about outsourcing for colostrum, butter and cheese, but morally and ethically we have to question these practices.
Mark McAfee gallivants around the country promoting the legalization of raw milk sales and his own practices are unethical. Can anyone recognize the obvious problem here? The raw milk community wants to police itself. They dont want regulations and instead endorse the trust your farmer model for their raw milk safety plan.
Id like to see the leaders in the raw milk community step up to the plate and police themselves. Mark McAfee should be blackballed from all speaking engagements (WAPF and raw milk symposiums) until he cleans up his outsourcing act.
It appears that Mark McAfee has been outsourcing for many years. I wonder if he has himself so far in dept that he cant financially survive without the income generated from outsourcing.the dangers of a large raw milk operation.
Milk Farmer,
Amanda should be viewed as a hero within the raw milk community. Shes had the courage to bring forth information about an unethical and dangerous business practice that has been occurring in the largest raw dairy in the US. Instead of support, she has been attacked. Why is that?
I commend Amanda for her courage.
cp
We can’t rest yet, there are still two more votes in the House, then must go to the Senate and get past the committee and three votes on the Senate floor.
If we get that far, we need the Govenor to sign the bill. The Govenor might be the killer, as he hired all these yahoos in the Health department.
In a healthy cow, there are no bacteria in the bloodstream or the milk. A few bacteria might sneak up the teat, but the real bacterial load doesn’t enter the milk until it is out in the environment exposed to the cow’s skin microflora (which, in the teat area is often in close contact with manure when she lays down, right?). Stinkweed is not a good comparison because it is a chemical compound, not a living organism. What I’m curious about from the people who handle cow’s teats and milk every day…do they think or know if the probiotic bacteria are coming mostly from the skin area or from the general environment (including the equipment)?
Bob,
Do you think there is a bill in between the two extremes that you describe in GA that the "yahoos" on both sides could live with? Thinking back to Steve Bemis’ 11 great thoughts…
If WY passes a bill with zero food safety standards including even basic education and labeling, then I hope someone sues the lawmakers on the committee and the governor when an outbreak occurs.
Along the educational line, the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund (www.ftcldf.org) and the Farm-to-Consumer Foundation (www.farmtoconsumerfoundation.org) just recently reorganized the websites to make access to informative and educational materials more accessible and affordable. You will now find convenient buttons on each organization’s home page which will get you with one click to shopping-cart pages for convenient previews and purchase of the booklets by Peg Beals RN ("Safe Handling") and Tim Wightman ("Raw Milk Production"). A link to a sample few minutes of Tim’s "Chore Time" DVD’s is also in the works.
Clarity in the information surrounding raw milk is bedrock, because the truth contains the best arguments for a return to freedom of choice in access to this nutritionally and economically vital food.
"Can you describe the route by which "good bacteria" get into raw milk, and how you measure whether there is enough good bacteria to call raw milk a "probiotic" food? Obviously, the bacteria do not travel through the bloodstream in a healthy cow and over to the udder…how are they getting from the gut into the milk?"
The answer to your question may be found in this abstract .
http://www.gutpathogens.com/content/1/1/15
"Natural Immunity to MAP from environmental and occupational exposure
Why don’t dairy farmers and veterinarians exposed to MAP-infected animals get a much higher incidence of CD? Data from the US show that these occupations are in fact associated with a significantly reduced death rate from Inflammatory Bowel Disease [19]. Children exposed to farm animals, particularly cattle, in early life also subsequently have a lower incidence of CD [20]. Occupational exposure to MAP is associated with raised antibody levels to MAP lysates [21]. An answer to the question consistent with these observations is that the extracellular classical ZN-positive phenotype of MAP excreted in trillions by heavily infected animals is not one to which humans are most susceptible. Exposure to this form of the organism may result in the acquisition of some natural immunity to disease. A good example of this happening as a result of purposeful exposure is the approximate 10 fold reduction in clinical Johne’s disease achieved subsequently by vaccination of calves using conventional whole killed MAP vaccines with the organisms in this form [22]. The well described urban preponderance of CD may not be that townsfolk have an increased susceptibility to CD, rather that country folk have some natural protection. Passage of MAP through bovine macrophages in milk and cheese or through environmental protists would result in a switch to an intracellular phenotype of MAP likely to have an enhanced virulence for humans [23,24]."
Notice the distinction between extracellular forms of MAP and intracellular forms of MAP.My own interpretation of this information taken along with a careful reading of Lida Mattmanns book "Stealth Pathogens" is that the pasteurization process is responsible for converting the bacteria in milk from extracellular to the intracellular form.Notice what the report says:Exposure to the extracellular form of MAP produces some natural immunity to the disease while exposure to the intracellular form results in the disease.MAP with its cell wall intact(the extracellular form) is little problem for our immune systems.
"An answer to the question consistent with these observations is that the extracellular classical ZN-positive phenotype of MAP excreted in trillions by heavily infected animals is not one to which humans are most susceptible"
MAP without it’s cell wall is " likely to have an enhanced virulence for humans."Pasteurization or heat shock is recognized as one way to change a microbe from it’s extracellular form into it’s intracellular form.
"Exposure to extracellular forms of these pathogens may confer some natural protection; exposure to intracellular forms which have passaged through milk macrophages or environmental protists may pose a greater threat to humans".
Here it says that the bacteria can be passed through the milk inside macrophages(white blood cells).So in their opinion the bacteria can but do not necessarily come from external sources.In fact as it says those intracellular bacteria "may pose a greater threat to humans".
My conclusion is that if you are buying milk from a herd that is also selling milk intended for pasteurization(typically a high producing holstein cow fed a dairy ration high in concentrates),you are very likely to be exposing yourself to MAP.That said it is still better to consume your MAP raw as extracellular MAP rather than pasteurized as intracellular MAP.
The best choice is still to consume milk that is unlikely to contain MAP at all and to consume it raw.
I agree with Steve Bernis
Although I personally see no problem with Mark acquiring milk from other reputable sources, it would be good practice on his part to make such information available to his consumers.
Lykke
Milk is sterile at secretion into the udder and is inoculated by bacteria before as well as after leaving the udder.
The udder is a microcosm of living bacteria and for good reason.
Ken Conrad
On my off-putting tone, I don’t even apologize. I tried to work with Mark on this privately back in the fall of 2007. In those 2 1/2 years I’ve basically gotten nothing but harassment over it.
Why do you think you have the right to determine what I choose to eat? If you don’t like hagis, your right not to eat hagis is just as important as my right to drink natural milk if I choose to do so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haggis
I don’t care what you eat. If you are selling food to the public, then you are a businessman and need to provide a safe and properly labeled product. I don’t think the raw milk industry has a good track record of self-policing, thus it should be regulated to protect consumers. However, I don’t think that the regulations for direct sales of raw milk should be so onerous they are essentially a ban. I also don’t like the WY bill because it is a dream come true for the few bad apples that will get into raw milk for the money and not the other values discussed here….
On the outsourcing discussion, are there two different philosophies in the raw milk movement: those who think milk destined for pasteurization should not be consumer raw (or used to make raw milk products) and those that are okay with it as long as the dairy providing the extra raw milk has certain qualities. Mark – what are the qualities of the dairies that you purchase from that make you feel okay buying outside your farm? Unless you are buying from Claravale, these dairies you source from must be conventional or organic-convention farms.
miguel and Ken, thanks for the descriptions of the bacteria.
Hmm, the way all the relatives of thousands of dead diabetics who have taken Avandia need to file a class action suit against the ~FDA~ (GASP! what audacity!!) for allowing Avandia to stay on the market, even after the first set of deaths occurred… when was that…oh wait, WHAT?!?, back in 2007????
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/20/health/policy/20avandia.html?em=&pagewanted=all
"Avandia, intended to treat Type 2 diabetes, is known as rosiglitazone and was linked to 304 deaths during the third quarter of 2009."
And a little further down:
"Avandia was once one of the biggest-selling drugs in the world. Driven in part by a multimillion-dollar advertising campaign, sales were $3.2 billion in 2006. But a 2007 study by a Cleveland Clinic cardiologist suggesting that the drug harmed the heart prompted the F.D.A. to issue a warning, and sales plunged. A committee of independent experts found in 2007 that Avandia might increase the risk of heart attack but recommended that it remain on the market, and an F.D.A. oversight board voted 8 to 7 to accept that advice."
Let’s repeat that last sentence… it’s truly breath-taking: "A committee of independent experts found in 2007 that Avandia might increase the risk of heart attack but recommended that it remain on the market, and an F.D.A. oversight board voted 8 to 7 to accept that advice."
ha! We all know just HOW independent those "independent experts" really were, who both discovered that Avandia would increase risk of heart attacks, yet STILL recommended keeping it on the market (hey, just can’t ignore all those BILLIONS in sales, BILLIONS, not millions!). And of course we all know how much FDA is in the pockets of Big Pharma because they always approve such drugs, even when TRULY independent studies show those drugs to be harmful, and only ban them when the loss or damage of human lives mount up to embarrassing levels.
Such hypocrisy is mind-boggling: THREE HUNDRED AND FOUR people died IN THE LAST THREE MONTHS OF 2009 ALONE, from a drug that the FDA approved TO CONTINUE SELLING, amidst controversy–even within its own ranks, a nearly 50-50 split–instead of taking the safe way and banning Avandia when they realized it was linked to deaths, back in 2007.
Truly appalling. And Lykke would have us believe that the FDA realllllllly has our best interests at heart????
Flee your job, Lykke… I simply do not understand how you can justify working there.
As if the govt has a better track record? LMAO
Bravo Goatmaid! Your response is right on. is Mr Marlar taking on a suit against the advandia drug makers for murder? It is murder, isn’t it, when you continue to do something that you know will harm/kill people?
Ken
My wife and I shop regularly at OP’s largest or second-argest drop point for raw milk.
We have seen raw butter on the shelves once since Christmas and before that, it was hard to find at least as far back as October or November.
Could be that the chains that do carry raw buter get first priority.
"They dont want regulations and instead endorse the trust your farmer model for their raw milk safety plan. "
I believe the correct phraseis "Know your farmer."
No because my first position is that thje government simply does not have the constitutional authority to regulate what is a contract between two individuals. I don’t think the government has a constitutional dog in the fight. Incidentally, I think that in the long run, the ultimate big government politician, Barrak Obama, may do the most to promote my position. His over the top big government push has awakened a sleeping giant and I think voters are going to begin to demand elected officials that recognize constitutional limits on government power…and I mean REALLY demand, not just say it once and go back to sleep…and that has the potential to benefit raw milk.
As a middle ground, both as a suggested "best practices" framework for unregulated sales AND as a starting point for any regulation that does, unfortunately, become new law, I’d suggest that Steve’s 11 Great thoughts, perhaps in combination with Tim Wrightman’s production guide, would probably be acceptable, though distasteful from a rights standpoint, as a guideline for legislation.
Last, a qualified yes if you must have regulation beyond the 11 great thoughts. I think Missouri’s law, in concert with reasonable enforcement, is probably the best of what now exists.
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com