I get asked any number of times by nutrition-conscious people about the difference between raw milk and organic milk. Of course, the explanation gets fairly involved, since I first need to point out that raw milk may or may not be organic. Also, what people refer to as organic milk—while it may at one time have meant exclusively raw milk—is now in consumer markets understood to be pasteurized, and may well be ultra-pasteurized to allow for the fact that it often travels long distances and doesn’t get onto grocery shelves as quickly as conventional milk.
If it’s ultra-pasteurized, I tell inquirers, it is probably less nutritious than conventional milk that is subject to regular pasteurization. And it is certainly far less nutritious than raw milk, whether organic or not.
I thought about the question about raw vs. organic milk when I saw the point Blair McMorran raised following my May 27 post about Alexandre Family EcoDairy Farms. She relayed information a veterinarian had provided about conditions under which cows are likeliest to shed campylobacter, noting that cattle raised on pasture are less likely to have campylobacter in their manure. She concluded, “I think one of the reasons there is such dissonance between small pasture-based raw dairies and the health department is the issue of semantics. (And focus, and knowledge).”
That prompted Lykke to state that the vet’s information, because it provided guidance about safety considerations, “is the best statement I’ve read on this blog, or elsewhere, from a raw milk producer.” Lykke added, “If the raw dairy movement as a whole took this approach, rather than attacking regulators and food safety advocates, there could be progress.”
It occurred to me that there is a lot of “talking past,” as it were, going on. The fact that Blair and Lykke connected was a notable exception. (Actually, in a later comment to the same post, Lykke seemed to throw up her hands in response to comments questioning the prevalence of Guillain Barre syndrome: “Seriously, I thought the approach Blair shared from her veterinarian was positive – showed hope in finding common ground. The kick back suggests that there isn’t much interest in discussion beyond an endless, circular argument that raw milk is the Bomb, and other foods plus vaccines, GMOs, etc. are the root of all evil.” Followed by further recriminations.)
Many of us here talk about boosting immunity, avoiding chronic disease, and the benefits of bacteria. All such matters are very nearly foreign to many food safety people, who are trained to fear bacteria and anticipate immune suppression, and don’t believe many chronic diseases (aside from diabetes) are related to dietary imbalances.
The point is that food safety advocates aren’t suddenly going to change “causes” and become chronic disease crusaders. Food safety professionals don’t see pasteurizaton as unsafe or a problem—if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
The reverse is true as well. Individuals who see their health improving after consuming raw dairy products want to figure out how to get it to more people, not interfere via cumbersome testing and labeling requirements.
Of course, the problem isn’t just language, but priorities as well. Food safety professionals want to work out endless details about labels for raw milk bottles, but then want to impede distribution.
And then there is perspective. Have to credit Bill Marler, the food poisoning lawyer, for honesty in his observation on The Bovine blog: “Perhaps I am just too close to the victims of food poisoning (including a lot of food other than raw milk) to have a perspective that allows compromise.”
Whatever the cause, the problem of talking past creates huge amounts of anger and resentment. That assumes there is underlying goodwill, which I’m willing to accept there is. In that case, how about something wild, like a conference or two that brings together food safety advocates and food freedom advocates, with the goal of figuring out common ground, beginning with a common language.Can even offer continuing ed credits.
Thanks, David for exposing the soft underbelly of why it is so hard to talk to each other in this debate.
"The point is that food safety advocates aren’t suddenly going to change "causes" and become chronic disease crusaders. Food safety professionals don’t see pasteurization as unsafe or a problemif it aint broke, dont fix it.
David, good point!. The thing is, it is broke, and we need to fix it. We need your seminars; yes we do! Make that happen, will you???? That would be awesome.
I did read Lykke’s comments but I think s/he took them out of context to suit his/her purposes; we DO produce milk according to Nature’s laws but Lykke only looks at feedlot data as valid input. Different paradigms.
The USDA is a global marketing tool, not a nutrition tool. They lost track of nutrition a long time ago. It simply doesn’t figure into their model. That’s what we need to change. Big Task!, but I see it changing. Money rules….but there is a major disconnect between our money and our quality of health. Health is real wealth. Get that, and you know where to go.
.
At the same time, I recognize the common chord – we need to assure both the health dept and the germophobes that we can speak their language and address their concerns. There is a risk – depending on stewardship – Lykke likes to hear that – but let’s be realistic about the risk.
Like I said before, all we need is money. http://www.rawmilkcolorado.org let us introduce real data and examine results. Right now, the farmers pay for expensive tests and some of them really can’t afford it.
Donate – we will use your money well. Lykke, I expect you to be the first to donate. Let’s do some research together We can find best practices, and safety levels that will make you comfortable. Let’s get some real data, from real labs, with real farmers. Let’s find some common ground. We can do this. We can help but we have to move together.
Let’s find the crack in the wall, and sneak through it. It’s there; we just need to see it and work it.What’s to stop us?
Thanks,
Blair
The food freedom advocates want freedom of choice for everyone including the food safety advocates but not so the food safety advocates they mean to limit our freedom of choise. And thereby defy the Constitution IMHO.
So what could the two parties discuss at a conference but the eroding away of what little freedom we have left?
The point is that we each have a brain and a conscience; a spirit and a heart. Therein is the essence of humanity. But in this world of systems and programs, we have relinquished these most precious fundamentals in favor of invented rules and ideasthe paradigmsof others. These others are often called professionals, and they wander through our lives with authority and confidence and power that ought to chill our blood. Today, it is really only their ideas that count, because they have the force of violence behind them to make their ideas reality for everyone. So it is with our food safety professionals who have decided that the paradigm of germ wars (sanitizers, vaccinations, antibiotics), and industrial-scale food production (pesticides, herbicides, volumes-over-qualities calculations) is right and therefore must be enforced. But what if the paradigm that informs their rules is wrong? What if that paradigm is unwittingly causing damage? Well, the only law that applies everywhere and equally is the law of unintended consequences, and that is, in essence, why we have rights, and a constitution that places the individual above the group. Every man has the right to foul up his own life, and to be protected from those who would foul it up for him.
We can and should discuss all we can, but the goal of that talking must be to share information and perspectives, not to determine which model the professionals ought now to force down our throats. If we do not keep rights at the head, we will be overrun by the tail.
Food Poisoning May Raise IBD Risk
Study Shows Food-Borne Infections Are Linked to Risk of Inflammatory Bowel Disease
June 1, 2009 — Salmonella or campylobacter food poisoning triples the risk of inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) — for at least 15 years.
IBD typically refers to Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis. It’s not clear exactly what causes IBD. Genetics, environment, diet, abnormal blood vessels, infections, immune-system overreaction, and psychological factors all have been blamed.
http://www.webmd.com/ibd-crohns-disease/news/20090601/food-poisoning-may-raise-ibd-risk
However, what the study is really saying is that people who suffer symptoms from food pathogens are also statistically more likely to also be diagnosed with IBD. It has already been discussed here ad naseum that not everyone who eats contaminated food actually gets sick, and that people having high beneficial intestinal bacterial loads and strong immune systems from a diet high in lacto-fermented and other traditional foods are more likely to be resistant.
So, an alternative interpretation of the study is that people having degraded immune systems and intestinal loads from a lifetime of consuming denatured processed foods are more likely to suffer both food poisoning and be diagnosed with the disorder known as Inflammatory Bowel Disease. In that light the study really isn’t saying anything that most of us here didn’t already know.
well sorry there lykke but you assume wrong. why would i be inclined to ruin the eggs (which i raise with truly free range happy hens, and sell out of early every saturday at the farmers market at 3x the cost of factory eggs) and why would i make an irrational decision to destroy the health benefits and taste of milk i personally drew from my very well bred happy, healthy, playful, friendly, gentle jersey cows who live on lush chemical free pasture (20+years chemical free) and eat hay that i grow, also 20+years chemical free, fertilized with compost that i make personally right here on the farm, and cut and bale myself… personally…
you must be kidding i’m sure…
however, anyone reading this is surely welcome to come visit with the understanding that while you’re here what’s mine is yours. we also have rose veal, raised on mommas milk and pasture. so we can put together a pretty special meal.
you can email me via my handle below. dw and i really would like to meet ya’all and feed ya’all. we’re very proud of the quality of our foods. since we’re grass and grass fed critter farmers we’re always here… except saturday mornings we’re at the farmers market.
Cheesed -off small farmers give up
Raw-milk delicacies getting scarce as many producers halt manufacture
By Susan Semenak
Here is Canada’s example of how they also CRUSH small farmers because inspectors BELIEVED a bad germ existed! Again no one became ill and no reported bad germs found! HMMM was it really just the inspectors BLIND FAITH or something more nefarious? Where is the underlying GOODWILL of these people? Has so much time past that we have forgotten about the burtal US farm raids and the resulting pain suffered by our small farm families including young children. I think it safe to say that a few of the children still yet suffer fears from what was done to their parents for the "crime" of selling milk from a cow.
I want to see some real examples of GOODWILL before I would chat with these folks.
David,
I fear our rights to choose will be completely taken away.
Raw Milk is a New Trend, Again
A short and to the point article. More and more Americans are opting out of the diet of death the SAD. Is that an overstatement? 200 million Americans are overweight 100 million of those are obese just one of our many problems. Is sickness the natural human condition or are we robbed of robust health the real natural human condition? If the answer is yes to the later question should we then begin to troubleshoot the problem by first analyzing what we place in our mouth?
My car is designed to run on gas but it wont go but a short distance on kerosene a mechanic understands that why can’t MD’s understand that our bodies won’t function properly on the SAD? Maybe they are just interested in revolving door customers?
Michael Schmidt the outlaw raw milk farmer from Canada faces $55000 "contempt of court fines and fees" this week. He doesn’t have the money and will ask the court for jail time.
What ever happened to his crime of selling raw milk? Is contempt of court just some legalese trickery to fool the public and make his punishment sound more acceptable than the "crime of selling raw milk from a farm?"
Who is the criminal Michael Schmidt or the so called justice system that dragged this PEACEFULL FARMER and his family thru hell for the last year or so. Who has been harmed is it not Michael Schmidt?
This is about milk a food not armed robbery! TPTB are INSANE
HB, yes was mostly kidding. Is your invitation open to anyone who wants to eat good foods (even if they might choose to pass on the raw milk, but want to enjoy all the other goodies)?
Don W, here I must disagree. You say "So what could the two parties discuss at a conference but the eroding away of what little freedom we have left?" and "Where is the underlying GOODWILL of these people?"
Please do not assume that everyone "on the other side" reacts in the same way as the couple of people you describe (and most of us do not wear heels, let alone run from controversy in them). Indeed, it is very hard to support draconian policies and forces when you’ve met and talked to the "opponent" face-to-face (or even blogged anonymously). On the other hand, by not communicating, it may be easier to de-humanize those who have a different point of view. My opinion, anyway (and heels have little use except on cowboy boots).
Also, in case you missed it, there was another interesting exchange on The Bovine relating to discussions on this blog:
thebovine
June 2, 2009 at 7:00 am
Over on the Complete Patient blog, people like Elizabeth MacInerney are wondering why Michael Pollan has been curiously silent about raw milk. Surely its something he must have encountered in his research. Is he trying for a subset of nutrition ideas that will maximize his consensus of support, or is he personally still undecided about the merits of drinking raw milk?
Heres part of what Elizabeth says:
I find Marlers support of Michael Pollan interesting. Although I am a tremendous fan of Michael Pollan (I have him to thank for turning me on to real food with his NY Times articles many years ago) I am also frustrated that he ignores the raw milk movement in his writings. Would Marler have come to his rescue had Pollan had also written in support of raw milk?
Reply
Bill Marler
June 2, 2009 at 9:44 pm
To respond to Elizabeth MacInerney Yes, I would have done the same had it been David Gumperts book free speech is free speech.
"Faking scientific data and failing to report commercial conflicts of interest are far more prevalent than previously thought, a study suggests.
One in seven scientists says that they are aware of colleagues having seriously breached acceptable conduct by inventing results. And around 46 per cent say that they have observed fellow scientists engage in questionable practices, such as presenting data selectively or changing the conclusions of a study in response to pressure from a funding source."
One in 7 lieing, misleading? The public is supposed to have faith in this? How could they?
http://blog.brendawatson.com/general/the-gut-brain-connection/?roi=echo4-5633591603-4767259-f4e98fb7652ed8710f1ee5a9c942342c
cp
http://climatesci.org/2009/06/04/short-circuiting-the-scientific-process-a-serious-problem-in-the-climate-science-community/
Short circuiting the scientific process-a serious problem in the climate community
By Rodger Piek
There has been a development over the last 10-15 years or so in the scientific peer review literature that is short circuiting the scientific method.
Also on 4/13/09 Dave Smith editor of the ThunderBlog {Cosmology] wrote an article
"Peer Review" Makes a mockery of science
"There was a time when to have a scientific paper published it well, had to be scientific. Not so anymore it a appears. Peer Review has become Snob Review or Mate Review and the so called "prestigious journals" are making a mockery of themselves and of science"
It would seems like many of todays "scientists" skipped their Honesty 101 class.
Upstate dairy’s raw milk could be contaminated
Breese Hallow Dairy in Hoosick falls NY has been shut down their raw milk "could be" listeria contiminated. Is this a real "outbreak" or just another false alarm?
Taking on corn and beef is work enough. Corn was pretty enlightening. Most people don’t know that 70% of the carbon in their bodies comes from corn. Raw milk has its own fan club already, and since Mr. Pollan didn’t choose it for dinner, what makes us think we need to drag him into this? He has enough on his plate.