It was the VIP dinner for speakers preceding the 2014 annual Weston A. Price Foundation conference in Indianapolis, just a year ago, and Annie Dru was excited. The self-described “real food educator” was not only attending her first WAPF annual conference, but she was attending to do an elaborate six-hour food-preparation demonstration on “ancestral cooking” at the personal invitation of Sally Fallon Morell, the founder and president.
“It was very humbling and flattering,” recalls Dru, in a new interview with Ann Marie Michaels, on her Cheeseslave site. “When Sally Fallon calls, you answer. I was elated I was being given this opportunity. I wanted to show up and reprise the foundation in a way they would be proud of me.”
Dru’s flight to Indianapolis had been delayed, so when she finally arrived at the VIP dinner, together with her daughter-in-law-to-be, Taylor, only two seats remained, at the head table. Dru, 52, was seated next to Fallon Morell’s husband, Geoffrey Morell. “We ate our meal and were conversing,” Dru recalls.
What happened next took her aback. “He took my arm and started doing what he considered energetic diagnostic. He was touching my arm, and moved up, and touching my chest. He began asking very personal questions. It was very embarrassing because I was sitting next to Taylor, who was 19 at the time.”
Dru looked over to Fallon Morell for a reaction. “I kept waiting for Sally who was sitting to his left and she would intervene. She inexplicably turned her back to us while he did his exam.”
Dru thought to herself, “He’s an older gentleman….I thought, maybe he is a little dotty. Maybe he isn’t in proper possession of his table manners.”
The next day, says Dru, “I had to run interference between him (Morell) and Taylor, because he was going to do an energetic…He attempted to do it to Taylor the next day.”
Geoffrey Morell describes himself as a naturopathic doctor and an energy healer. He was on the board of directors of the WAPF nearly from its launch in 2000, until three days ago, when the organization suddenly announced he had resigned. The WAPF announcement said that Morell, now 89, resigned “based on his desire to make way for a younger generation of board members.”
It wasn’t clear if Morell’s resignation was related to the Dru interview with Michaels on Cheeseslave. There have been rumors on social media in recent days that allegations of inappropriate behavior involving Morell were forthcoming. I emailed both Geoffrey Morell and Sally Fallon Morell earlier today, seeking their comments on Dru’s description of the events in the Cheeseslave interview. Neither responded.
I also inquired in two emails with a spokesperson when the organization announced Morell’s resignation as a director, earlier in the week about whether Morell will be attending the upcoming conference in Anaheim and, if so, whether he would have an exhibit in his role as an energy healer, as he has at previous conferences. I was told there would be “no comment.”
During the interview with Dru, Michaels related her own experience of having an energy healing session with Morell, at the 2011 WAPF annual conference. “I signed up for one of his personal hearings,” recalls Michaels. “He starts asking me about my sex life, when I should have sex with my husband. I felt violated…”
For Dru, last year’s encounter with Morell was just the beginning of a journey of disillusionment with the WAPF. Her food preparation session went badly, in her estimation, because she didn’t have all the tools she needed. More significantly, she became extremely concerned after the controversy over Green Pasture fermented cod liver oil broke in August.
“One of the mistakes I made is I recommended a product that I didn’t know a lot about…I am so regretful that I took that approach. Many of my students did the same thing….I was wrong…. I viewed it as having magical powers. A lot of it was smoke and mirrors. We didn’t have scientific evidence. We are finding lots of questions….Now that the questions raised by Dr. Daniel have spread like wildfire, is it possible we were wrong? I have to go and tell all the students of the last seven years and tell them I recommended a product that was deleterious….Dr. Price’s work isn’t discounted. Sally’s work isn’t discounted.”
But, she added, “The product may be rancid. …Rancid polyunsaturated oil can have a devastating effect on human health….It’s like smoking. It doesn’t make everyone sick….If it didn’t work, you go back to the drawing boards….That’s okay, we learned. there is an opportunity to make a better product.”
Her recommendation to Dave Wetzel, Green Pasture’s owner, “Recall it….go back to the drawing boards and build a better mousetrap.”
Dru isn’t the only long-time WAPF loyalist demanding Green Pasture recall its product. Blaine McAfee, the wife of Organic Pastures owner Mark McAfee, said on Facebook yesterday, “The farm to consumer relationship MUST be built on trust, integrity, and transparency. It is my firm belief as a food producer that the producer must be fully confident that their product is both beneficial and safe. If at any time the product’s safety is in question, it should be recalled and production stopped. I am concerned with the mounting evidence against FCLO which brings into question the safety and efficacy of the product, and yet it continues to be sold and promoted as safe and beneficial.”
Dru says she remains a big admirer of Sally Fallon Morell, despite the seeming unraveling of WAPF. “I have compassion for Sally. We raised her up.” Perhaps, says Dru, “This model (of WAPF) didn’t work. There was great stuff that came up….maybe it is time for a new model.”
Can you pick grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Please let us know when the phoenix rises from the ashes of destruction. By its fruit we will know it.
Someone write a script and sign John Travolta, this could eventually be a Civil Action type Hollywood blockbuster. It’s been fascinating to witness and less morbid than a car or train crash. I just hope the new organization can start off with a clean slate and agenda and be a better version of what sustained and nourished so many of us for so many years. Peas on earth. To all the characters involved, thanks for caring enough to carry on and try to keep the faith we all need it because I believe after all we are just trying to do the right thing.
Ora Moose – I vote for Julia Roberts to play Ann Marie Michaels ala Erin Brockovich.
I loved the last video, some parts were hard to watch, but overall, I felt hopeful that there would be a resolution.
Since Ann Marie is obviously hell bent on discrediting the WAPF from every conceivable angle possible, maybe she can explain what I’m supposed to do now to save my family members from medical death once they find out that all of my wild ideas about nutrition and alt health were coming from a “cult” that promotes “molestation of women”. Because this doesn’t just discredit WAPF… it also discredits ME (and any health info that I’ve shared with my family) by association. And there’s not a chance of my family members taking seriously anything coming from an organization with the word “paleo” in the title.
Correction: *medical murder
Amanda, I agree with you about the bad vibes given off by the “cult” and “molestation of women.” I personally felt like I could use a good hot shower after listening to Annie Dru’s tale.
“Since Ann Marie is obviously hell bent on discrediting the WAPF from every conceivable angle possible”
Ad hominem logical fallacy:https://youtu.be/IVFK8sVdJNg
Is that all you got?
@ Ann Marie
“Ad hominem logical fallacy:https://youtu.be/IVFK8sVdJNg”
^ Fallacist’s fallacy
Argument from fallacy is the formal fallacy of analyzing an argument and inferring that, since it contains a fallacy, its conclusion must be false. It is also called: argument to logic, fallacy fallacy, fallacist’s fallacy, and bad reasons fallacy. In fact, the presence of a formal fallacy in a deductive argument does not imply anything about the argument’s premises or its conclusion.
Amanda: Have you taken a look at Mark’s Daily Apple? It is Mark Sisson’s version of paleo that he calls “primal.” He largely agrees with the nutritional teachings of the foundation, but believes we must have a rigorous and robust scientific basis for our claims about food and health (not pseudoscience like much of what NIH, USDA, EPA, and CDC funds, and, sadly too much research from academia, and certainly not pendulum swinging). He is a former elite athlete, too, and has excellent stuff about exercise. This is where I’ve gotten most of my understanding of nutrition (and exercise) over the past two or three years, not from the WAPF. He is also the publisher of “Death by Food Pyramid.” Check it out. You won’t be disappointed.
I am familiar with Mark’s Daily Apple as I’ve read it myself on occasion. However, for all intents and purposes, it’s just a blog by one guy. Not exactly a resource that most people would consider “credible” even if I do find it useful for my own personal knowledge.
Amanda: Look in the archive; there are a vast number of resources. It is indeed credible; I consider it more credible than the WAPF. Also Dr. Mercola is an excellent resource for everything health and lifestyle (with a vast archive); he, too is credible. I wonder if you have really searched elsewhere. Or are just difficult to please.
I am not difficult to please, but my skeptical family definitely is.
Amanda: Two suggestions. 1. A consult with Chris Kresser (he’s good). Send them to Dr. Mercola’s website. He’s a doctor, his site is the #1 health website, and they can find the answer to any question they have. I trust him.
Hi Amanda, I deeply empathize with your frustration and concern regarding the discrediting impact my testimony may have on your family’s perception of the real-food movement and WAPF in particular. Please know that I deliberated long and hard before deciding to come forward with my story. After returning from Indianapolis last November, I ruminated privately– telling only family members and close friends of my distressing experiences at the conference in the hopes of coming to a place of greater understanding. Until Ann Marie Michaels invited me to the dialogue, my intention was to step away from the work altogether and redirect my life down a less distressing path. She and Cathy Raymond helped me to see that approach as a misguided one that ultimately did not serve my own healing or the imperative to disseminate the gospel of Dr. Price. I too have labored to nudge my family in the direction of better lifestyle choices. It has often proven a thankless and lonely endeavor. The last thing we need is a stain on the institution we rely upon to validate our arguments in the eyes of those we love enough to risk offending. I understand.
The celebrated memoirist Mary Karr describes a dysfunctional family as ‘any family with more than one member’. I find that a hilarious and devastatingly accurate portrayal of any and all organizations involving… people. We humans are an imperfect bunch, are we not? We want to do good, we try to do good, we convince ourselves that we are doing good– sometimes when we are clearly NOT doing good, and in the end must rely on one another for feedback as to whether or not our intentions are in alignment with the outcome.
I assure you most sincerely that I did not relish revealing that which I was certain would cause much confusion, disillusionment and pain to so many in our beautiful community– in fact it made me physically ill. But there are times when a thorough purge of an uncomfortable or inconvenient truth is the only means by which we can restore functionality. I pray that this pulling-back-of-the-rug will ultimately result in healing not only for myself, but also for Sally Fallon, Geoffery Morell, Dave Wetzel and his family and each and every member of our tribe, both within and outside the WAPF community. Blessings, Annie Dru
Annie Dru: Thank you for your guts, honesty, humility, and magnanimity; all are becoming, and, wrapped up in one person, impressive. You rock, like your recipe’s, which I first encountered in the PPNF Journal.
I actually don’t blame you at all, for it was blatantly clear to me by watching the interview that you were manipulated by Ann Marie into doing this. In fact, there are a number of occasions within the interview itself where you share your opinion and then Ann Marie “corrects you” until you find yourself echoing *her* opinion instead. That was difficult for me to watch as I thought you had made some very salient points on your own before she was able to convince you otherwise. If you go back and watch the interview again you’ll see what I’m talking about.
You’re amazing, Amanda. So now you’re saying Annie Dru was induced/tricked/manipulated into saying things she didn’t mean to say. Her comment elsewhere here, coming the day after broadcast of the interview, doesn’t even hint at any regrets or corrections.
David, maybe you should not have allowed comments on this topic if we aren’t allowed to actually… well …comment on it.
“It is not about winning, it is not about losing. It’s about showing up and being seen… If you are going to show up and be seen, you are going to get your ass kicked” – Brené Brown
“If you’re not in the arena, also getting your ass kicked, I’m not interested in your feedback.” – Brené Brown
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
“If you’re not in the arena, also getting your ass kicked, I’m not interested in your feedback.”
^ Maybe this should be the tagline for your new organization.
…and also added (as a disclaimer) to the “How You Can Help the Amigos” section of your blog posts.
It is interesting to read some of these replies, not sure we are reading the same things or watching the same videos. I hope there will be action on the part of Wetzel and Sally, i really hope that some steps are taken that will set things right and redeem the value within such a wonderful organization. I am glad the P-cubed foundation seems to be turning a new more positive corner. I hope that continues.
@Amanda, I’m surprised to hear that you think WAPF was the only organization with smart or informed people. Please know the new organization is filled with experienced and knowledgeable people with years brain trust of contacts.
We all either know each other, or know people in just about every area of alternative medicine. None of us are spring chickens and we have long trodden this path. We will help you and your family find resources whether or not you feel bound to WAPF.
It’s not about what I think. It’s about what my family thinks… they are the ones in trouble, and I had a hard enough time as it was trying to convince them of anything outside of so-called “evidence-based” medical advice. They, like most people, are highly skeptical of anything to do with alt health or non-FDA-recommended nutrition advice. But because WAPF has such a highly regarded reputation as a reliable source for nutrition and health info I was able to get my family to consider information from that source alone… but I can tell you right now that they would roll their eyes if I had to explain to them what the term “paleo” refers to. That may seem silly, but a lot of people are turned off by new-agey diet fads (even if they are meant to be a throwback to ancient dietary practices).
It’s strange that this is what you are concerned about… considering that people may be getting sick and even dying.
You’re worried about what your family thinks?
What I am hearing is that women should remain silent about unwanted sexual contact and people should remain quiet about health concerns for the greater good and reputation of a HEALTH Foundation? Idk about you but that does not sound healthy for anyone.
Absolutely Women should speak up about unwanted sexual contact – immediately, directly and unconditionally to the perpetrator (and their spouse).when or if, and as soon as circumstances reasonably allow. I assume that most adults on this blog are already quite clear about the relative differences in male and female sexuality. Even men who aren’t “rapists” or sexual violaters as a matter of course, can and do exceed a woman’s comfort level or physical space sometimes. It sounds as though Mr. Morell is in the habit of taking “license” with his “energetic healing” practice and definitely needed to have his territory redefined. I do not condone men’s excesses in this regard, but I don’t see how Dr. Morell’s inappropriate behavior reflects on WAPF, as a whole, as a foundation devoted to educating the public about nutrient-dense food.
@Laurie, the fact is that Mr. (he is no doctor) Morell’s wife has financial and personal power over the women subjected to what sounds like sexual predation. That is the only reason he apparently has gotten away with it for years. This is a damn site worse than “inappropriate behavior;” and it is blatant abuse of power. The situation mirrors the cover-up of the damage rancid pollock liver oil has done, and is reflective of the rot that pervades the hierarchy of the organization. As far as “redefining” Morell’s “territory,” would you like to see any of our daughters have an “energetic healing” with him once his “territory” has been properly “redefined”. By the WAPF board, perhaps?
Actually, Ann Marie, I’m worried about my family’s health. I guess you missed that part?
Then get them off the FCLO
THEY AREN’T ON THE FCLO. They never were on it. This may shock you but there are things out there that are worse than FCLO… like chemo, for instance.
Amanda I know what you’re saying. I’ve also used WAPF to bolster my family’s switch to more nutritious foods. Especially sick family members. But the organization can’t be allowed to make people sick. And maybe sick enough they could need chemo. (rancid oils are carcinogenic especially when ingested daily for years and years)
Instead try looking to the rock solid Price-Pottenger Foundation. They archive the research of Weston Price and other nutritional greats. http://ppnf.org/ And they produce a lovely little newsletter. (and no paleo or primal in the name)
And as this new foundation gets established maybe the words in the name will matter less than the work they do. It’s very promising: The Paleo-Primal-Price Foundation https://ffnw.org/
Ann Marie, Speaking of counter-attacks… looks to me like YOU are the one on the defense. Regardless of whether you see other ways to approach her situation, Amanda’s concerns should not be judged or made light of. You’re obviously a big girl doing grown up things. Some of your actions will have consequences for others. If you found a way to take the higher ground, it might support your purported mission better. If your mission is truly to help save others from the risks associated with FCLO and/or getting too close to Mr. Morell, then stick with that. Have some compassion for Amanda, who apparently is concerned because she has fought the good fight in hopes of protecting the health and well being of her family, and now there are reports that she fears will totally annihilate her message. But dismissing her concerns doesn’t help anyone.
I have undying respect for David G and consider him a valued friend. At the same time, I cannot say that I don’t feel a palpable sense of bias at times around what gets posted on blogs related to the FCLO issue. For me it sometimes feels like an ongoing barrage of “and another thing…”, from questionable cow gifts to allegations of inappropriate behavior from Mr. Morell, a topic totally related to FCLO.
For certain there seems like plenty of “messy stuff” to go around. At the end of the day, you’re making defensive and snide comments to Amanda doesn’t support your supposed cause of protecting people from potential harm (I am surmising that’s your goal, and that your goal is not just to take Sally and her husband out, which I can see how someone might come to that conclusion).
We live in a country where people are supposed to be considered innocent until PROVEN guilty. I do not support not speaking up about important issues or events. I DO support approaching personal testimony, interpretations and observations as just what they are. When we stray off this path, we have people reading blogs and then making statements like “What I am hearing is that women should remain silent about unwanted sexual contact and people should remain quiet about health concerns for the greater good and reputation of a HEALTH Foundation?”
I believe Amanda has a legitimate concern and I have compassion for her plight. If she is struggling to not lose all credibility with already skeptical family members, having to push back against new implications that have nothing to do with them does make her battle more formidable.I am hoping that her family is not reading this blog, because it will surely make her efforts harder.
For me, I have an undeniable sense that much of what’s been posted on this blog, both the posts and the comments, goes beyond information sharing important facts and inquiring about the truth. Many people, including David at times, have placed themselves as judge and jury and already convicted WAPF leaders.Though it may be hard to see from your vantage point, from an outside observer, it’s much easier. I have NO affiliation with WAPF, or Sally, or anyone involved in the group. It;s also true that in the past, I have had multiple times where I questioned Sally’s messages and was not completely satisfied with her responses. Some would say that I have reason to be biased against Sally. Yet, if I were act as judge and jury in this instance, I might be inclined to view you and David as out to get Sally Fallon Morell et al rather than just exposing important truths. Just sayin’, that’s the vibe I get more often than not, and why I understand Amanda’s concerns.
That said, even if I thought Amanda was completely full of crap and had falsely accused me of something, I’d do my best to respond to her with something other than my own Ad hominem logic and sarcastic, dismissive comments. We all get to choose whether we want to be the grownup in the room or resort to our own childish, petty behavior.
Amanda said “Since Ann Marie is obviously hell bent on discrediting the WAPF from every conceivable angle possible”
That was an attack on my character (ad hominem fallacy). I’m pointing out that attacking people (a) is not logical and (b) it’s not productive and will not get us anywhere. Instead of attacking people, let’s address the problems at hand and try to solve them. So on to the problems…
You say, “We live in a country where people are supposed to be considered innocent until PROVEN guilty. I do not support not speaking up about important issues or events”
I agree 100%. However, Green Pasture is still selling FCLO, despite the numerous and mounting adverse health reactions associated with it. We are asking for a recall. If it turns out that FCLO is totally fine, then they can go back to selling it. If there was a raw milk farm that was producing milk that people were drinking and there were lots of reports of people getting sick, they would STOP until they figured out what the problem was.
It’s easy to comment on blogs and judge people for being snide or having the wrong “tone”. Let’s focus on problem solving instead. Enough with the shaming and judging and name calling. I doubt you would say these things to my face if we were sitting across the table from one another.
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
You seem to think that “ad hominem logical fallacy” is a logical response to any comment you don’t like. It’s not. My statement was not a personal attack “on your character” …it was a judgement on your actions. You may or may not take offense to that, but whether you do or don’t still does not make it a personal attack. Also, nobody here has called you any names or shamed you, but let’s get one thing straight… your actions are NOT above criticism. Especially not when those actions have big consequences for others. Now, do I need to go dig up a loosely-related historical passage about that and quote it here out of context in order to make that point clear?
“I’m pointing out that attacking people (a) is not logical and (b) it’s not productive and will not get us anywhere. Instead of attacking people, let’s address the problems at hand and try to solve them.”
Interesting how you think you get to decide what constitutes as a “problem” worth solving. Apparently your “feedback loop” only travels in one direction.
What is kind of funny in all this is that Ann Marie and Cathy Raymond are on the payroll of the new conference, but it appears this has been kept on the down low… so you have all these hidden motivations for this reporting and how they are working together (Since the more WAPF is bashed, the more the new foundation and conference makes!).
A lot of mis-info or partial info has been reported, that clearly hides important details that the average reader doesn’t know. Aka, if the skeletons got out of the other sides closet like they have tried to do to WAPF, people would probably be none the more trusting of the new than the old…
Think that is biasing the agenda at all?
There’s no payroll at this point, I’m pretty sure! Just volunteers, but it Cathy and AnnMarie ended up getting paid for all their efforts to set up and promote the conference, that’d be cool by me (a member and attendee).
Amanda – You are being unkind to two people.
First, Ann Marie…don’t kill the messenger. She’s shining a light on things that have been swept under the bumpy rug for a long, long time. In the WAPF community, many of us knew this was going on, but few came forward. We’d all heard stories of those that did try to stop it. They got the boot. Anne Marie is intrepid. I love that quality in her I was quaking in my boots just thinking about it.
Second, don’t be unkind to yourself. I bet you have way more standing with your family than any nutrition organization ever could.
I know a little about your concern. I imagined that I had lost my “wise elder” standing in my family over my own FCLO debacle. I ended up apologizing to my son for my obstinate defense of the stuff, and despaired, like you, that that mistake would color all my ongoing advice.
I didn’t despair for long. The other night I bought inch thick pastured pork chops for dinner and gave them to my son’s fiance to prepare. She wanted to know if she should cut off the fat.
Rather than roll out Lecture #252 “Importance of High Quality Fats in the Diet of Traditional Cultures and Modern Society” or Lecture #1967 “Concentrations of Vitamin D in Pastured Pork Lard”, I told her, that it would be more delicious if she left the fat on, and could always cut it off later if desired.
She made an absolutely mouthwatering meal and I didn’t see any fat left on the plate. (big fat inner grin) They kept remarking about the unbelievable taste and moisture. (invisible happy dance)
My son had said he usually didn’t like pork because it was dry, and she of course was happy that he relished her meal. I left them with the thought that a “a good farmer is a chef’s best friend”.
No way they’ll buy confinement pork again!
Secretly, I can enjoy the fact that they got a great dose of Vitamin D in all that good pork fat! But, will I ever tell them that? No way Jose! I can already see my future grandchildren smiling with wide WAPF faces and no braces.
There is something so wonderful about this food that can get lost in all the nutritional information and research papers. I have been on a soap box (ad nauseam) with my adult children since I started working for WAPF a decade ago. I’m relieved now to step off, and just ENJOY the food, the farmer’s skill and edible passion, and the fellowship of a mouthwatering meal with my family. I’m going to let the food do the talking for me.
Best of luck Amanda!
Delicious comment, Cathy
You are obviously a good and loyal friend, so I don’t fault you for rushing to Ann Marie’s defense (even though she isn’t actually being attacked at all), but please don’t attempt to minimize my concerns and insult my intelligence at the same time by assuming that you (a person who knows literally nothing about my family) somehow know better than I what it takes to convince them of matters related to health.
@amanda, Apologies for stepping on your toes, no insult to intelligence intended.
Your concerns are a very important aspect to discuss, and until I read your posting, I hadn’t really recognized that I had had similar concerns. So, thank you for sharing what you did.
Let the food do the persuading… brilliant Cathy!
@annie dru Oh, your cooking classes and recipes speak volumes! http://www.lardmouth.com/
I’ve been salivating over Chef Taylor’s offerings all morning. Wished I lived in San Diego, I’d have a fab lunch ordered. http://www.gutgoods.com/
Amanda, the word “paleo” simply refers to an era in human prehistory when our ancestors were hunter-gatherers. It is often used to define various eating patterns, so in that sense it has many conflicting and sometimes confusing meanings. But if we keep it simple and think of “paleo” in the context of food as just a reference to hunter-gatherer diets, it becomes easier to explain the word to family and friends. Dr. Price found many of the “paleo” diets he studied extremely healthy. Just as he found many diets not strictly “paleo” to be extremely healthy. HIs message: no one diet has a monopoly on producing extremely good health for everyone. How about that, people are different! He also showed that certain aspects of “paleo” diets indeed were important to all people everywhere. How about that, we all share certain things in common! The purpose of our new foundation as I see it is to celebrate our commonality and learn from our differences.
I get all of that, really I do. But again, a diet modeled after the paleolithic era of hunter-gatherers sounds like (and in fact is) extreme by any measure today. One would have to have a VERY open mind in order to not find “paleo” to be an absurd dietary protocol, especially after doing even a cursory Google search on the paleo movement… which my family members are fully capable of doing.
@amanda-why do you feel that you must label it. If you have such a hard time discussing with your family would it just be best to give them solid nutritional information? Personally I do a combo of paleo/primal/price so I have never really had the ability to label it, but just do what feels best for me. Idk, just brainstorming here to try and help resolve your troubles. Dr Prices work is still very valid and would still be good to share. Believe me no matter how I feel at the moment I will not be tossing my very worn and frequently used copy of Nourishing Traditions.
I totally agree Amanda. Paleo is essentially anti human, since it militates against modern homo sapien sapien’s ability to farm and be a conscious custodian over plants and animals as a rare beacon of light in a dark galaxy that nonetheless is capable of as much creation as it is destruction. The thing I keep telling myself is that 90% of world cuisine would perish in a Paleo inquisition. What they speak of is not only malnutrition but also cultural genocide, whereas WAPF principles can be applied a to make any world cuisine healthy and tasty through the application of universal principles.
Given the breadth of what WAPF covers, it is no surprise that its adversaries can find straw man arguments to bring it down. As said, the green pasture one is the most idiotic because WAPF does not produce it and does not have the resources to be a food regulator, and it recommends a wide range of cod liver oils. It only ever claimed to promote those foods that on the face of it satisfy its dietary guidelines and we are all adults who should understand “buyer beware” and it is not like WAPF was forcing people down that route given that evclo is in the same recommendation category of best along with green pasture.
You sound as misinformed about Paleo as Sally Fallon Morell. Anti-human? Malnutrition? Cultural genocide? Seriously? That’s pretty far-fetched. It’s generally agreed now in Paleo circles that it’s more of a template, looking to our human ancestors for clues as to what our biologically appropriate diet as humans is (how that can be construed to be “anti-human” is beyond me), with recognition that there was not and is not a single perfect diet for everyone, and adding in insights from science. Paleo cookbooks draw from many cultural traditions; I don’t see how that constitutes “cultural genocide.” The Paleo movement has also embraced the best of WAPF, increasingly paying attention to how food is raised/grown/sourced, proper preparation such as soaking and sprouting of seeds (even if grains aren’t eaten), embracing lacto-fermentation and bone stock, and even raw/fermented dairy (if one tolerates it). And no one is going to haul you before some “paleo inquisition” if you decide to eat lentils or experiment with einkorn. Ancestral health (to include paleo, primal, Price, Pottenger, etc) is an ongoing conversation and experiment, not a quick-weight-loss diet fad, no matter how hard its detractors try to paint it that way. If that’s too complicated, just think “just eat real food.”
Amanda, I have been on a Paleo diet for two years. I was on it it to lose the weight that I wanted. Now I am primal which means I have added in dairy. I don’t believe it is a fad. I think each individual has to figure out what works for them. I have eaten organic for 17 years and you know what? I have only been able to convince maybe four people to totally change their diets. Not one of those people are family members. My husband eats out for almost every meal and my daughter eats like I do. Every person has to personally come to the decision to want to eat healthy for themselves. We can be an example and be there when they have questions.
I for one am so thankful to Dr. Kaayla Daniels because I am one of those people that have been harmed by the FCLO and if it wasn’t for her I would still be taking it. I believe the truth outweighs anyone’s feelings.
As far as the molestation stuff goes that doesn’t make me want to stop eating healthy. Just like the sexual allegations and charges that have come out in the last several years about all of these leaders in the homeschool community doesn’t mean I am going to stop homeschooling my child. We need to stop elevating these people to “god” status. They are human beings and they make mistakes.
The thing I want to happen the most is that GPP recalls the product so that no more people can be harmed.
Well not everyone is like you, Michelle. And this is not about my “feelings” either. The WAPF is an informational resource for a lot more than just what to eat. I would still like to know what the energy healing “molestation” has to do with FCLO. I find it ironic that this has apparently been old news that nobody felt the need to publicize until just now.
Amanda, did you read Annie Dru’s comment? She explains eloquently why she didn’t go public right away. The fact that it is “old news” doesn’t mean it isn’t terribly traumatic and destructive to the victims. And if it is, indeed, part of a pattern, covered up by the organization, then it is that much more essential to expose it to the light of day.
Yes, David, I read Annie’s comment and I’ve responded in turn.
Amanda, wow, where did I say everyone had to be like me? Looks to me like I said everyone needs to figure out what works for them. WAPF doesn’t even support Paleo so why would you even have to explain it to your family??? Why are you here bashing Paleo, it has nothing to do with FCLO?
I’m not bashing paleo. I have nothing against it personally.
Does your family follow WAPF-related controversies and in-fighting so that you feel you need to explain the FCLO and sexual abuse controversies to them? That seems unnecessary, and surprising if they are not into real food of their own volition. I don’t know why you’d need to discuss “Paleo” with them or refer to any organizations or gurus. Why not just give them the food and nutrition information you think they need? Or just lead by example and give up on trying to reform or convert them; people tend to resist that sort of thing. Best wishes; it can be very difficult talking to family about issues that imply a different world view.
No, luckily they don’t read these blogs and it’s unlikely that they ever will. Hopefully it stays that way.
Just continues to be bad for WAPF. Total failure to address the entire situation resulting in more and more distrust. Bad management on good ideas. With me or against me attitudes, just incimpetent
Not just WAPF, but PPPF, David and everyone…
Perhaps. And if so a greater need to face it full on and call a meeting to discuss things in detail and establishment better ways
and in other news : Christmass comes early for Bill Marler & Co. : Chipotle Restaurant corp. has closed 43 stores in Oregon, because of illness caused by E. coli., suffered by customers, tracked back to 6 particular outlets. Government labs. are assisting Chipotle figure out where the pathogen came from. Notable for how very different this is, from the hysterical re-action seen whenever an e.coli outbreak of illness is attributed to raw milk.
… today’s issue of the National Post, has a 2-page spread on fecal transplanted pro-biotics. Sure … as long as there’s a way for the Cult of the White Robe to make obscene profits, they’ll accept a novel procedure which actually works. Meanwhile, the notion that a few cups of kefir made from REAL MILK = for about 1/ 1000th the cost – feeds natural gut flora, is scorned. But human beings always get what they want, “social-ized medicine” = the sickness industry, be damned. This remedy is at the stage just before a concept becomes “self-evident”
Gordon explain how you think this E.coli outbreak is different from a raw milk outbreak? They closed 43 stores while they are trying to figure out the cause (the specific food that caused the illnesses). Stool samples from the ill customers shows they are have the same fingerprint–so it means it is the same pathogen and they all became ill from the same source. That is why they have shut down 43 stores. They believe it is either lettuce, tomatoes, or cilantro that is contaminated. They are in the process of testing the different food sources.
When there is a raw milk outbreak the same process happens. They shut down the farm, test milk samples and environmental farm samples. The dairy can reopen after it can prove through testing that the pathogen is no longer in the milk supply.
The only difference with the Chipotle outbreak is that it is mostly adults who have become ill and no one has developed HUS. The reverse happens in raw milk outbreaks involving pathogenic E.coli. Children are mainly the victims and typically there are a few cases of HUS.
Mary, from everything I’ve read, Chipotle voluntarily closed restaurants in the areas where illnesses occurred. Raw dairies are usually forced by regulators to shut down after illnesses are reported. Now, dairy in general is tightly regulated, so pasteurized producers are similarly shut down in the event of illnesses, as some pasteurized cheese producers have been shuttered. I just want to correct the impression that all food producers are treated the same.
David, unlike Salmonella, E.coli 0157:H7 is considered an adulterant if found in our food supply, regardless of the food source. Now this outbreak involved E.coli 026 which is also a pathogenic Shiga producing E.coli bacteria, but not sure if it is also considered an adulterant in the food supply. I believe the law pertains to only E.coli 0157:H7. As you know, Bill Marler has been trying to get Salmonella to be considered an adulterant also, and I believe the other Shiga producing E.coli bacteria. I will have to do some research on this.
In the latest WAPF Wise Traditions, in the ads section p 139, Geoffrey Morell, JP, ND, is advertising an all day workshop Monday for $65 & a free lecture on Sunday evening at Wise Traditions conference, 2015. For further information email Geoffrey at email@example.com or phone 202-237-8763
Ladies attending–wear ski jackets covered with leather vests. Bring pepper spray.
Thanks for that information, Aurjan. I think there’s been an assumption by some people here that because Geoffrey Morell resigned from the Weston A. Price Foundation board, he will just disappear from its events. That’s not necessarily the case, which is why I inquired with the WAPF about whether Geoffrey Morell will be attending and/or having a booth at the upcoming annual conference in Anaheim next weekend. I wanted to know so attendees who might be concerned could be advised in advance about his presence.
The state of California licenses naturopathic physicians – graduates of four year naturopathic medical schools. Mr. Morell has no such degree, and no license to practice naturopathic medicine in any state. He may call himself a naturopath, but If he bills himself as an ND in California, he is liable to arrest for practicing medicine without a license.
JP….Juris Prudence (or something like that)…. a lawyer???
How can one check to see if he has a legitimate ND awarded
Is there anyone going to the WAPF conference? If so, would you be able to report to David G on things related to these controversies? It could make a good story. I would be interested if Sally Fallible will drop all product endorsements, step down as President, hire an executive director, appoint men to the board etc. and function as a professional organization.
@herdsman Sally Fallible….good wordsmanship, and good thing to remember. We all have feet of clay as Annie Dru put it.
Herdsman: I’ve already volunteered. The leadership is in disarray, but I expect the majority of the speakers will be excellent, as usual. The food is always good, though without seafood will be not quite as good. The scuttlebutt? Who knows. I won’t be insulting anyone, or passing on gossip, but certainly will give a flavor of the undercurrents. Outside of the leadership, this is a group of first-rate people whom I thoroughly enjoy spending time with, especially at meals. Agree with all of your fixes. Won’t happen, though. If David Gumpert wishes an uncensored version of my impressions he will contact me, but I have desire to further stir the pot.
no desire to further stir the pot.
I’ll be glad to receive reports, try to consolidate them into something that can be posted. I saw somewhere that someone accused this blog of organizing “spying” on the WAPF conference. This wouldn’t be spying, it would be reporting on the happenings, a media report. It happens every day at conferences around the country.
I’m trying to follow this on my phone and I’m not sure that I’m getting it all as for some reason I’m not getting email notifications any more. So please, somebody, correct me if I’m wrong. I got the distinct impression reading through this that Amanda feels that she needs WAPF intact and untarnished to save her family from death by S.A.D. So she is very emotionally invested. I got the distinct impression that if sexual harassment had to be buried in order to keep WAPF untarnished, that would be her preference. Did I completely misunderstand?
That is what I was trying to understand earlier. But they are somewhat feeling that I can understand, as I have had similar ones myself. Though I don’t understand blaming Gumpert’s articles for the mistrust of WAPF and not being upset at the actual Board of WAPF for not taking care of the problems in a more swift and serious manner.
Steve, it appears that Amanda has a very skeptical family. If they trust WAPF, that is a good thing, because most of the information is sound. I suspect some of the healing modalities are loony tunes, but don’t really know. In any case, I think WAPF will survive, in a rump form, although Annie Dru’s public revelations could make things spin out of control. Her parents don’t take the GP stuff, so that’s also to the good. But she will speak for herself.
Steve, you nailed it! Several people including me have given her different options and opinions, but apparently WAPF are the only ones that know about health.
@Steve – As far as I can gather from the sort of vague open-ended description of the energy whatever-it-was, they are claiming that Geoffrey was acting inappropriate… but I don’t recall hearing either Annie Dru or Ann Marie use the term “sexual harassment,” do you?
They didn’t use the word because it wasn’t. But it was strongly implied. Frankly this post was rediculous. It stinks of piling on and feel bads and very little substance. I’m interested in the science, not the cat fight.
I agree, Pete.
A creep running around, preying on women. That’s OK? Inappropriate, uninvited touching and personal questions about their sex lives (this has apparently happened before)). That’s OK? Are you both mysogynists? I, for one, am nauseous.
Grow up Gary. It was a medical consultation. Ones sex life has an affect on ones health, mentally and hormonally. Such questions are fair game. And muscle testing necessarily involves touch.
Could something inappropriate be going with him? Maybe. Could Mr. Morrell give off creep vibes? Maybe. But its not clear in the story reported here that there was in these instances.
How do you figure it was a medical consultation? Annie and Taylor took the only seats left, which were at the speakers’ table, next to Mr. Morrell. This was a social gathering, and for Annie and Taylor, a work project. Do you honestly think they were interested in a medical consultation with Mr. Morrell at that time under those circumstances?
I have had craniosacral therapy on and off in recent years, and the therapist always asks, before proceeding, “May I put my hands on your head.” I always say, “Yes.” I know it was part of her teaching, and I appreciate the professionalism.
Ann Marie signed up for a private energy healing session….I.e. medical consultation. Questions about sex life are very much germane and not sexual harassment pe se.
Well, now we know why the only empty seats left were next to Mr. Morrell, assuming other women knew they could expect a “medical consultation”, whether they want one or not, if they sit next to him!
If I sit down to dinner with some guy and he reaches over and starts palpating my abdomen and package and asking about my night time urination habits and other stuff, he might be trying to save me from testicular cancer. It might very well be a medical exam. But if I didn’t ask him to do it, it is invasive and actually probably could be criminal assault. The key part of “consultation” is that you actually “consult” that person. You don’t grab somebody’s hand and read their fortune, or start massaging a stranger’s neck without permission, and you certainly don’t start talking about sex with them. There is a time and a place for medical consultations and exams. The dinner table isn’t it surrounded by a bunch of strangers is not that place – even if it was requested. It is wrong on so many levels.
I agree with you Steve but you forget we are talking about two different incidents. Ann Marie paid for a private consultation. It wasn’t a dinner. IOW it was an appropriate time and place for questions. Yet its being characterized as something its not.
“Grow up Gary. It was a medical consultation.”
Really? Unplanned, unscheduled, and…most importantly…uninvited, at the head table at a conference? Pete, you have a very, very odd belief in just what a medical consult is. Verey odd indeed.
Bob you have a reading comprehension problem.
If you listen to the interview, Annie Dru uses the word “molested.” I was trying hard to not be sensationalist, in my heading, language, and in what I quoted. It seems that, in the process, I may have inadvertently minimized the events to some of you.
I would argue further that the events described by Annie Dru and Ann Marie Michaels are related to the scandal over fermented cod liver oil. The culture at Weston A. Price Foundation that enables questionable business practices (the ongoing endorsement and promotion of Green Pasture FCLO, in the face of serious reports of health problems) also enables Geoffrey Morell to engage in inappropriate sexually-oriented activities, while the president of the organization turns her back, literally and figuratively, on the activities. And once again, I asked both Geoffrey and Sally Fallon Morell for comment, and they didn’t respond.
When she says “molested” is that supposed to imply “sexually molested”…or no? Because, I feel molested pretty much every time I go to the doctor… but I wouldn’t say that I was sexually molested.
I’m still not entirely clear on what exactly the “molestation” entailed that Annie describes. She said something about him moving up her arm… touching somewhere on her chest maybe? …and then??? Was that it? or are we supposed to fill in the rest with our imaginations?
No one has the right to do what that creep did to her and get away with it. How many times has this happened? And swept under the rug? Parsing definitions? There was a time when he would have been cold-cocked. Have you no sense of common decency?
Amanda, all we know is what is in the interview. I have removed other comments you have posted seeking titillating details–if that’s how you get off, you’ll have to go elsewhere, because we’re not doing that here.
Nobody is “getting off” on anything. In court they ask questions… would you say that the judge and jury were doing so to “get off” on it? Please.
Why should I offer Ann Marie more courtesy than she has offered me?
We’re not in court, we’re on a blog. Drop it.
Sounds like you are splitting hairs. Would you like to be asked questions about YOUR sex life in front of a table full of strangers while a man held or caressed your arm? Wildly inappropriate.
No, Steve, I would not like that. I also would not like to have people posting a barrage of slanderous accusations against me on the internet. Would you call that harassment?
That same president also turned her back on the co-author of her latest book and VP of the organization, on people who supported and sponsored the WAPF for many years, on the journalist most involved in the raw milk movement for many years, and a number of other women we know who have similar stories to Annie’s. The president has no comment, David tells us above. As with Green Pasture, what responses do come forth are just smoke and mirrors. .
No, Amanda, posting stuff about people on the Internet is not harassment. Doing news articles about people isn’t harassment. It might not be fun, it might hurt your reputation, but it is not harassment. Statements are only slanderous when they are 1) Spoken and 2) not true. Statements are libel when they are 1) written and 2) not true. True statements are neither slanderous, nor libelous. Which statements about Mr. Morell’s behavior are you claiming to be untrue?
harassment – (n.) the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group
So, Amanda, by your definition, you are harassing a lot of people who have expressed the desire for you to stop and expressed annoyance with what you are doing. That that’s not actually the definition. You are “proof-texting”. Here’s the full definition:
(either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone anxious or fearful. Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail (“I’ll stop bothering you if you’ll go to bed with me”). The victim may file a petition for a “stay away” (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.
If I blog negative things about Obama every single day of his presidency, that is not harassment. If I showed up at ever place he was speaking and got in the first row and shouted the same things, THAT is harassment.
Yes, Steve, that is the full long-winded definition. I posted the first line because it is the basic definition… and, no, I don’t think that any of the examples that either you or I mentioned would be considered “harassment.” That was my point. That just because someone wouldn’t like something does not make it harassment. You have to at some point make it clear that the action is not wanted, and then if they persist…
I’m not saying that what he did to Annie wasn’t inappropriate. It was. Especially at a dinner table. I just don’t know what it has to do with FCLO and I don’t think that we would be talking about it at all if it weren’t for this. That’s really all I have to say about it.
Your “basic definition” was wrong. Period. It was proof texting. You did it on purpose to suit your needs. Britney Spears’ songs may annoy me. Her continuing to produce songs is not harassment. The radio station playing songs is not harassment. If my roommate sneaks into my room every morning while I sleep and turns on a CD of Britney songs at full blast – THAT is harassment.
More to the point, what Annie experienced was sexual harassment. That is my opinion. That is the opinion of the majority of people on this board. I believe that would be the opinion of the majority of Americans. I believe that would be the opinion of a jury in a court of law.
If you want more details before YOU can come to that conclusion, here is my suggestion. Talk to Sally Fallon Morell. Talk to Geoffrey Morell. Find out what actually happened. Start your own blog and start interviewing people.
It was sexual harassment.
I don’t know what Annie Dru would call it but in my case, yes, sexual harassment.
“Acting inappropriately” (sexual comments, touching, etc.) is considered sexual harassment, isn’t it?
I don’t know. Apparently “sexual harassment” takes on different meanings depending upon who you ask. But, if we’re going by the standard definition, then I would not think that questions about one’s sex life would constitute as a “sexual comment” (which to me would be something more along the lines of “Hey baby, nice @$$”…though I suppose some women might take that as a compliment).
Comments about sex are by definition sexual comments. You are acting like this is no big deal. It is. In some jurisdictions he could be charged with assault for these activities.
No, Steve, a comment about sex is not automatically a “sexual comment” …if it were then that would mean that my gynecologist is guilty of making “sexual comments” to me and that Sex-ED teachers are guilty of making “sexual comments” to their students.
Watching this unfold has been painful, but if one bright light has come from it, a handful of women will not be touched or spoken to inappropriately this year at the conference, (or at least I hope not) now that “the powers that be” know that their “dirty little secret” is out.
Annette: So you think the creep won’t show? I will ascertain that at the earliest possible opportunity. It’s a cinch he’s been sleepin’ on the couch the past few nights. God, I’ll be glad when 2:50 rolls around on Sunday, and I can get the hell out of there for good. A full report will be forthcoming, fair to all, but pulling no punches. At my age I have no tolerance for bullshit any longer. Nor should any of the rest of you, no matter what your age. It’s bad enough that the government and media are wholly-owned subsidiaries of the plutocrats, but when alternative institutions full of trusting people sucker them into a heap of cowpies, it gets to be too much.
Addendum: And when I get home, all the WAPF stuff, except Dr. Seneff’s articles, and perhaps a few more, will go into the recycling bin, even though it will be dark by then.
“He attempted to do it to Taylor the next day.”
Violence should have occurred.
I’m quite certain had my son, my husband or Taylor’s father been present, he would not have dallied so long in our company (;
Amanda, please see above. Action was taken immediately to bring the incident to the attention of the board.
Gordon, no apology from Mr. Morell needed or desired, furthermore I desire no punitive action whatsoever be taken against said gentleman. I wish him the healing that will inevitably come from an end to codependent behavior on the part of his circle of friends, family and community.
Taking the complaint to my local chapter leader who also happened to be a board member seemed like the appropriate action. Unfortunately it did not result in an immediate intervention. No feminist dogma here.
Again, as it pertained to my own personal feminine sensibilities, I considered the incident ‘comic relief’ in an otherwise exceptionally trying and disheartening weekend. What was not in the least funny to me at the time was that unrestrained proximity to an unbalanced male in a position of power nearly resulted in an incident involving someone of a tender age whom I was entrusted to protect.
It is with deep regret that I pen these statements. I spent an entire year deliberating whether or not to come forward with this unpleasantness. May this whole unfortunate situation be resolved quickly and with the least possible amount of further upset to the community and the individuals involved.
There are a number of comments on here that are harmful to individuals in our community. I’ve been hearing from a number of readers of this blog who feel that some of the comments fall into the categories of hate speech and personal attacks.
Hate speech – Speech that attacks, threatens, or insults a person or group on the basis of national origin, ethnicity, color, religion, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, or disability. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hate-speech
Personal attack – A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person’s claim or claims. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html
Trolling – In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, often for their own amusement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
This morning I discussed this with David Gumpert and we are in the process of putting together comment policies for our blogs and Facebook pages. Once the policies are drafted and posted, we will be retroactively and proactively enforcing the rules. Commenters who refuse to abide by the rules will be banned at our discretion.
Well, perhaps I will be banned for makng this comment but it will be interesting to compare and contrast before and after screen shots of what was posted and what has been censored by Anne Marie. A curious turn of events given the number of comments and concerns expressed here over the past seceral months regarding the quashing of dissent by WAPF. Apparently what’s good for the goose is good for the Gumpert. Yikes. Good luck with all that.
Cute, Kerrie, I like that “what’s good for the goose is good for the Gumpert.” You’ll have to go a lot further to get banned here for a comment. I’ll say more in a new post, but while I’ll have some guidelines, banning people and deleting comments isn’t my thing. I’ll do it, yes, but I’m not a good Internet cop, and in the final analysis, I am dependent on the good will of the community. The community will need to decide if it wants this kind of forum to continue as a source of news unavailable in the mainstream media and on most of the Internet.
Well played Mr. Gumpert. Thank you for the civil response. Anne Marie herself has been making comments that could subjectively and even objectively fall under the guidelines that she herself has enumerated above. I have to observe the cliche “it takes one to know one,” holds water here for the above stated concerns. With regards to the stated policy by Anne Marie of retroactively deleting posts, most democratic governments or above the board operations that enact a new policy set it in motion moving forward rather than to go back and make attempts at revisionism. That is, what’s done is done so let’s move forward, warts and all, with knowledge that we have potentially made mistakes and are prepared to own them, acknowledge them and yet transform ourselves constructively from them. If I am not mistaken, it is this sort of humble contrition that many of the readers here are looking for not only from WAPF and Green Pastures but also government regulatory organizations be they US, Russian or Chinese. It was also the originally stated intentions of this new organization. To behave in the same condemned fashion is to, as Shakespeare called it, have the worm turn. Let us be the change we want to see in the world. Thank you for your attention to these matters. Focus on the food issues, not the drama and your success is guaranteed as though your house is built upon a rock rather than the sand. Good luck.
Kerrie the disagreements are fine…..but the sexist. racist and other derogatory comments about whole groups of people aren’t. They’re in a whole different arena….not one I want any association with.
I agree entirely, and apparently so do lots of other people.
You know what I hate? People who come here and pretend to take the so called High Road and still try to stick it to people here, the High Road Way. Ann Marie is direct, yes, and Honest, yes, and intense yes, Maybe that does not fit into your idea ,Karrie, of civil response, She calls it like she sees it. Cannot see where she has made comments which would fall under her guide lines that she has enumerated above. I loath cloaked words, I loath phonies. And why shouldn’t she delete all comments that are cruel and hurtful. How do comments like that serve anyone. I expect some of my own comments to be erased and I am kinda glad, they were made in anger at people I suspected of being cruel, mean and trying to stir up trouble. So that was my high road, or rather the low road. It is hard to sit by and watch people here try to demean others, especially when I see the people demeaned have been trying to lend assistance to that person. It is hard to sit by and see good people attacked and questioned about every little thing to try and find something the mean person can latch on to and use as some proof to prove that person wrong. or what ever degrading proof they are trying to prove. It is sickening to see normal human feelings be bashed, or twisted into something that was never meant. Your fond of quotes. ” Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone”
why are you casting a stone at Ann Marie? ” When you point a finger at someone, there are 4 fingers pointing back at yourself” “The lady doth protest too much I think” “Thistles and sharp stones like sharp honey combed words do not a happy journey maketh. ” Happy Trails Kerrie!
OK Anne Marie. How many other sock puppets are you using on this site? Earlier it was evident to Amanda that Accidental Activist was in fact Cathy Raymond at which point that avatar disappeared and Cathy Raymond began posting under her own name to try to slough it off without admitting it. I would gather that you are also And Now The Purge Begins who was very supportive of Anne Marie when she first began posting here, even posting links over to Cheeseslave full of praise. Also, Heifer Hugger who suddenly appeared after And Now The Purge became unpopular by making aggressive and off putting commentary, though that could also be Cathy Raymond again, who just happens to be on the new organization’s payroll. I wonder if David Gumpert, who has now apparently abdicated editorial control of The Complete Patient to Anne Marie, has actually done the due dilligence on Mrs. Michaels and checked around on other sources than herself regarding her past business activities much like everyone else here has been so scrutinous of David Wetzell. When pressed about it previously Mr. Gumpert posted a link to a past article he had written that only used Anne Marie Michaels as a source of information. I wonder if their comments will be removed to erase the ability of the readership to clearly assess. The readers here were savvy enough to observe and call out WAPF for their sources being too narrow. It appears that Anne Marie Michaels has been given a pass by Mr. Gumpert and the limited readership here where they have pig piled on WAPF and David Wetzell alternatively. You come out swinging with the term “hate” in your first sentence of your response. It is relatively clear what you hold in your heart when your language projects such an intense emotion and subsequently coming out swinging so aggressively in defense of Mrs. Michaels. All the world is a mirror. I am quite self reflective. Are you equally so with yourself?
The syntax of “Happy Trails Kerrie” is very similar to Anne Marie’s dismissive “Is that all you got?” retort to Amanda under similar scrutiny and questioning. David Gumpert, search your heart and your intellect upon this matter. How does it reflect have you genuinely practiced good journalistic diligence with regards to your sources? Thank you and the rest of the readership for your consideration.
One more bit of evidence for the readership here and Mr. Gumpert to ponder. If we go way back when the FCLO issue began to bubble up there was also a poster on these threads with the name Slave stirring up emotional passions that just happened to have Ann Marie Michael’s Cheeseslave avatar next to it. Woops! Soon Ann Marie began posting as herself rather than Slave and her avatar transformed curiously over to the more ambiguous blue power icon that we can all now observe up next to her posts. If we all go to that post we will find that Slave has an identical blue power button icon to Ann Marie’s. I think that Mr. Gumpert and the rest of the readership can guess why if they honestly reflect upon it. I wonder if the post by Slave will also be disappeared by Ann Marie’s editorial hand, for some reason, at which point we’d likely see a return to the original Cheeseslave avatar next to her name in order to raise her branding. I should think the readership here would be quite upset if they found out that they were being played with for the sake of a particular individual’s personal agenda rather than a genuine attempt to scratch at a scientific truth regarding our collective real food supply and community. Food for thought. Apologies if it causes some people indigestion or high blood pressure. Results may vary.
Kerrie, I’ve dealt with your personal attacks on Ann Marie Michaels in my newest post. As for your attacks on me, I’m okay, but confused. You are anticipating I will erase past comments, even though I’ve never done that in nine years of publishing this blog. Are you sure you don’t have me mixed up with another guy named Dave, who erased any number of past material from his site’s blog when this whole FCLO controversy broke, and which I reported on?
A few people pointed out a while back (and were shouted down with exceptional vigor!) that while David and company are all in an uproar over WAPF, Green pastures, etc, it appears that they are engaging in the same tactics, same lack of disclosure, same skeletons in the closet…
Good to see more and more people realize that something smells fishy, and it is on both sides of this discussion…
Sorry Raul, what “lack of disclosure”? What “skeletons”?
Wow, looks like this place got renovated overnight! I see that the rating function for comments is now gone. That’ll certainly be good for Ann Marie, seeing as how 99.9% of her comments get buried in down-votes. Another glitch in the one-way “feedback loop” has been resolved. 😉
No…the rating function is still there and works. Yours, on this comment, is now a -4.
“retroactively” ?!! you mean, like, ‘down the memory hole’ ? but but but, how will anyone ever then gather the evidence with which to have me drawn + quartered for having insulted several, [ maybe even dozens] of hothouse pansies who went through 12 years of state-indoctrination, being told that ‘my right to express me-self ends where your tender sensibilities start’?
you know I’ll back that crowdfunding for Amanda
I am rather petite (even for a female), but I feel fairly confident that I could handle old-man-winter Geoffry if he tried to get fresh. lol 😉
What has not been brought to light, and something we experienced in our dance community, is how west coast sentiments around touch and intimacy are different then easy coast sentiments. And how west coasts folks can be misinterpreted and misunderstood by east coasters. Now I have no idea if this Morrel person is a west coaster but it could be at the root of some significant misunderstandings
Joy contacted me and wanted me to vouch for her that she is not Ann Marie. I knew that, but now you all do too.
If its all broke
I grew up loving the masked men like Robin Hood, Zorro, The Lone Ranger, Batman and Superman. Their stories live in me, and whether or not I put on a mask to fight oppression, ignorance or hubris, I am dedicated to do just that. For sure, the first “evil doer” to vanquish is myself.
I rooted for An Accidental Activist to take on FTCLDF ED, not because he was evil or wrong, but because it appeared he was posturing and speaking as/for the FTCLDF. The FTCLDF is not one man, or two men or three men. It is a strong diverse collection of men and women that have over the years created a food freedom movement, over time, step by step. The credit and voice goes to no one person. That’s too much responsibility. I am, you are, we all are as much FTCLDF as he is, salaried or no.
I noted, and maybe you did too, that An Accidental Activist avatar went away when FTCLDF ED avatar went away to be replaced by John or John M. Now, that was more like it! Super heroes don’t tarry once their work is done, take victory laps or end-zone prancing. They just are up, up and away! I wouldn’t call that slouching away, nope.
What I’ve been finding, working with (not working for) the P3 collaborative is something that I can’t wait to share with others. When one of us falls down, we are picked up by Ron Schmid’s comfort, poetry and laugh till it hurts humor. When we are attacked by someone in social media, Archie and Steve comes to the rescue with logic and “have words” with our would-be oppressor and send us messages and encouragements to continue standing strong. When there is an uncomfortable truth to be told, Ann Marie, Annie, Lynne and Kaayla take up the fight. And, last but not least, David provides a safe environment to share with the larger community (even safer now….thanks David for this courageous move).
And, when we are joyful, oh man, there is so much fun, it feels like champagne to hang out together. There are many others who I haven’t mentioned here, but that’s because they haven’t officially said the are an Amigo, I don’t want to “out” them.
Have we created our own super-hero group, a modern day “Avengers”. No, that’s not the case. It’s not an exclusive group, it’s an all inclusive group. Every person that has found a way to join us finds their own super-human qualities and then shares those with the rest of us. This diversity is dazzling and uplifting.
I think what we are discovering, and it’s hard to describe this…but I believe it’s how traditional societies came together. We know about traditional foodways. Now we’re discovering how societies of old interacted and respected the contributions and diversity of each of it’s members.
WAPF had great information to share, but the set up of the organization was based on an outdated model. We know that now, too much responsibility/power at the top makes an organization topheavy and out of balance.
I believe Paleo paved the way for P3, they are not an “organization” with one leader. Power is loosely and widely held. You haven’t seen anyone posturing as the “dictator” of Paleo have you? Not likely too. Too much respect for the collective wisdom in that group.
In top down organizations, the natural interactions of a traditional society aren’t possible. They are squelched and sublimated for the good of the whole by the ruler, leader, etc. The organization is limited by the leader’s vision and perceptions of right/wrong.
In bottom up organizations, interactions find their own natural balance, and each person is encouraged to give more of themselves than they ever thought possible.
The Amigos are all working crazy busy wonderful hours…up till the wee hours of the morning sometimes. And we are loving it. We enjoy creating, with each email, with each conference call, a new type of organization, somewhere we we can fully participate.
I mean, what good is eating all this nutrient-dense foods if we aren’t going to use it to have a kick butt life?
I hope P3 is going to knock your socks off, and I know you are going to knock OUR socks off. When we say “There is room for everyone at the table.” we mean it.
I am nearly making a living wage working with the Amigos. That’s not because they are underpaying me, it’s just because I now live in Maryland, where prices are higher. I hope no one on this list has a problem with me coming off food stamps and medicaid.
One day I can move out from my son’s house, build up my strength and finances again, and be a larger contributor to my friends, family and community. It’s been a long, hard year, but getting better everyday.
OK, can we all please go back to no nastiness and just talk / educate about raw milk and health benefits? Thank you, My moose died and its was very painful but I don’t want to relieve it forevever
Sounds to me like a possible witch hunt like the one that is happening to Chiropractors in the US. They are also being accused of sexual harassment, treatments not working, etc. Even after 20 plus years of helping people and stellar reputations they are suddenly being targeted. There’s a trend here use your common sense. WAPF helped me to find raw milk and traditional food preparation that is not well known in the US even though they are practiced throughout the world. Has anyone ever heard of a troll? Tries to become a part of a group with the purpose of bringing it down. I’m not an insider but you don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Certainly it is possible to come to such a conclusion after reading through a stream of comments, and perhaps a social culture that has ideals. WAPF has done some cool things. I think it’s really about integrity, management, and social responsibility, more then WAPF good or bad.
The likely reason that we see more investigation into actions and suspicions of cronyism is directly as s result for how the issue has been handled. It has been handled precisely in the manner that is grown upon when done by big business. And, it is somewhat embarrassing for supporters, that now feel the need to treat all groups and businesses as equal to scrutiny. And so we should! We should hold each other to the same standards that we esteem in the world. And we see that this is not simply a problem of big multi national corporation but of the human spirit itself.
The problem is also ours. In our bias and failure to values and principals first. Instead we get into association and turn blind eyes when we see conflicts of interests and questionable conduct. Or worse don’t know th difference. WAPF has itself pointed it’s fingers at others, only to also error and fail to uphold the same standards for itself.
Should we all drop WAPF? It’s not unreasonable to drop them. But it seems if we wish for WAPF to exist and function with the same vision and mandate then they will need to make some changes that insure that such actions will not be part of the organizational culture in the future.
The first thing I would expect is for Sally Fallon to step down, and find another person more skilled to run an organization of this magnitude. The fact that she does not step down, is itself the biggest cause of concern.
Then I would expect some clear member means of input and subsequent establishment of code of conduct that uphold commonly shared values and principals. No one person should control such an organization. It’s will is collective. Decisions need to be made from its mandate, with its code of conduct, and based on its establishments and agreed upon values and princiosls.
To Amanda, I have just one question, if Mr. Morrell seeks out a consultation with your 15 yr old daughter, you would be perfectly fine NOT calling it sexual harassment, right???
Dear Annie Dru,
I too was sexual assaulted by Geoffrey Morell during a “treatment.” Several years afterward in a small group of women who’d attended a WAPF conference, we went around and at least 5 other women reported similar assaults.
I called the police after the incident and gave details but declined to prosecute (for all the usual reasons, that one freezes after something like this). I was just harassed by a stranger while on a walk and called the police and the man is in jail. That prompted me to think about this again, and I feel so guilty that I never followed through. (I did post to the internet on a few sites at the time.)
Is there anything I can help with? Please contact me to let me know what actions are happening and to see if I can add any value. Even if it’s just to tell the facts that I know so the pattern is better known.
I’d rather not put my info out in public. So if someone posts a contact email or number here, I can be in touch?
Geoffrey Morell is beyond a little slip up or uncouth. He knows what he’s doing to harass. He sets it up and picks which people will be victims that won’t squeal. He prays on sick people who are needy. He did it to so many people that the large support group that recommended him – the leader of that group also said that multiple people had told her the same thing. (It’s another issue that this person didn’t feel it her place to warn anyone.)
I can still feel the slimy dirty feeling I got from him. It didn’t reduce at all until I heard the other women’s stories and realized I wasn’t remotely alone in my experience.
I haven’t read through this long page… so maybe I missed something. Feel free to point it out.
Thank you for speaking up. Lest some people criticize you for not making your name and other info public, I want to say that I totally understand. In the past Sally Fallon Morell has taken very aggressive measures against any woman who has told the truth about Geoffrey’s behavior. Sadly, Sally has retaliated whether people spoke to her privately or went public. Please do encourage the other 5 women to join you.
In glancing through, I appear to be late to the thread. I will add that I am an adult over 50 who’s stable with a relevant education. What happened with Morell was not “almost appropriate” nor “accidental” or possible to mistake. The man is a sexual predator.
I’m sorry to hear some people questioning others on that. Sure it’s natural to question whether someone was reactive and it wasn’t a big deal. It usually is real, and the questions are the same ones victims use that stop them from reporting this stuff. No one knows me so it’s hard to prove via a posting… but this was a big deal. This is the kind of stuff that harms and violates and really messes with people.
I gave my email below when I posted the comment, so David, it’d be great if you can email me.
There’s a common but overlooked airborne pathogen that’s known to cause diseases of unknown cause. Some online documents state this cancer-causing, mental illness-inducing microorganism is not zoonotic. That’s wrong! It’s carried and shed by bats in their feces. And healthy people can get it, too.
My coworkers and I, all immunocompetent, got Disseminated Histoplasmosis from roosting bats, that shed the fungus in their feces. The doctors said we couldn’t possibly have it, since we all had intact immune systems. The doctors were wrong.
More than 100 outbreaks have occurred in the U.S. since 1938, and those are just the ones that were figured out, since people go to different doctors. One outbreak was over 100,000 victims in Indianapolis. 80-90+% of people in some areas have been infected, and it can lay dormant for up to 40 years in the lungs and/or adrenals.
This underdiagnosed airborne infectious disease can cause malignancies, precancerous conditions, rheumatological diseases, connective tissue diseases, heart disease, autoimmune symptoms, inflammation, adrenal insufficiency, seizures, migraines, hydrocephalus, hallucinations, etc. and is often undiagnosed/misdiagnosed in immunocompetent people.
It’s known to cause hematological malignancies, and doctors claim leukemia patients go into remission when given antifungal. My friend in another state who died from lupus lived across the street from a bat colony. An acquaintance with alopecia universalis and whose mother had degenerative brain disorder has bat houses on their property.
Researchers claim the subacute type is more common than believed. It’s known to at least “mimic” autoimmune diseases and cancer and known to give false-positives in PET scans. But no one diagnosed with an autoimmune disease or cancer is screened for it. In fact, at least one NIH paper states explicitly that all patients diagnosed with sarcoidosis be tested for it, but most, if not all, are not. Other doctors are claiming sarcoidosis IS disseminated histoplasmosis.
What if this infection, that made me and my coworkers so ill, isn’t rare in immunocompetent people? What if just the diagnosis is rare, since most doctors ignore it?
Older documents state people who spend a lot of time in a building with roosting bats, in caves, working as landscapers, construction workers, pest control workers, etc. are known to get Disseminated Histoplasmosis, but the info appears to have been lost, for the most part. And now bat conservationists encourage people to leave bats in buildings/homes. What a terrible mistake they’ve made.
This pathogen parasitizes the reticuloendothelial system/invades macrophages, can infect and affect the lymphatic system and all tissues/organs, causes inflammation, granulomas, and idiopathic (unknown cause) diseases and conditions, including hematological malignancies, autoimmune symptoms, myelitis, myositis, vasculitis, panniculitis, dysplasia, hyperplasia, etc. It causes hypervascularization, calcifications, sclerosis, fibrosis, necrosis, eosinophilia, leukopenia, anemia, neutrophilia, pancytopenia, thrombocytopenia, hypoglycemia, cysts, abscesses, polyps, stenosis, perforations, GI problems, hepatitis, focal neurologic deficits, etc.
Many diseases it might cause are comorbid with other diseases it might cause, for example depression/anxiety/MS linked to Crohn’s.
The fungus is an Oxygenale and therefore consumes collagen. It’s known to cause connective tissue diseases (Myxomatous degeneration?), rheumatological conditions, seizures, and mental illness. Fungal hyphae carry an electrical charge and align under a current. It causes RNA/DNA damage. It’s known to cause delusions, wild mood swings (pseudobulbar affect?), and hallucinations. It’s most potent in female lactating bats, because the fungus likes sugar (lactose) and nitrogen (amino acids, protein, neurotransmitters?), releasing lactase and proteinases to obtain them. What about female lactating humans…postpartum psychosis (and don’t some of these poor women also have trouble swallowing)? The bats give birth late spring/summer, and I noticed suicide rates spike in late spring/early summer. It’s known to cause retinal detachment, and retinal detachments are known to peak around June-July/in hot weather. A map of mental distress and some diseases appear to almost perfectly overlay a map of Histoplasmosis. Johns Hopkins linked autism to an immune response in the womb. Alzheimer’s was linked to hypoglycemia, which can be caused by chronic CNS histoplasmosis. Cancer is known to occur more often near rivers than in mountains or deserts, just like this infection.
The bats eat moths, which are attracted to blue and white city lights that simulate the moon the moths use to navigate. Bats feed up to 500 feet in the air and six miles away in any direction from their roost, but not when it’s raining or when the temperature is less than approximately 56° F. The fungus can grow in bird feces, but birds don’t carry it because their body temperature is too high, killing the fungus.
I believe the “side effects” of Haldol (leukopenia and MS symptoms) might not always be side effects but just more symptoms of Disseminated Histoplasmosis, since it causes leukopenia and MS symptoms. What about the unknown reason why beta receptor blockers cause tardive dyskinesia? The tinnitus, photophobia, psychosis “caused” by Cipro? Hypersexuality and leukemia “caused” by Abilify? Humira linked to lymphoma, leukemia and melanoma in children? Disseminated Histoplasmosis is known to cause enteropathy, so could some people thought to have nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug enteropathy have it and taking NSAIDs for the pain/inflammation it causes, and the NSAIDs aren’t the actual culprit?
From my experience, I learned that NO doctor, at least in DFW, will suspect subacute and/or progressive disseminated histoplasmosis in immunocompetent people. Some doctors, at least the ones I went to, will actually REFUSE to test for it, even when told someone and their coworkers have all the symptoms and spend a lot of time in a building with bats in the ceiling. Victims will be accused of hypochondriasis. (My doctors told me only farmer’s get it, it’s only in bird feces, and it only infects the lungs…wrong, wrong, and wrong!) In fact, the first doctor to diagnose me was a pulmonologist, and the only reason he examined me was to try to prove that I didn’t have it, when I really did. No doctor I went to realized bats carry the fungus. And NO doctor I went to in DFW, even infectious disease “experts,” understand the DISSEMINATED form, just the pulmonary form, and the only test that will be done by many doctors before they diagnose people as NOT having it is an X-ray, even though at least 40-70% of victims will have NO sign of it on a lung X-ray. It OFTEN gives false-negatives in lab tests (some people are correctly diagnosed only during an autopsy after obtaining negative test results) and cultures may not show growth until after 6-12 weeks of incubation (but some labs report results after 2 weeks).
One disease of unknown cause that could be caused by Disseminated Histoplasmosis: I suspect, based on my and my coworker’s symptoms (during our “rare” infectious disease outbreak) and my research, that interstitial cystitis and its comorbid conditions can be caused by disseminated histoplasmosis, which causes inflammation throughout the body, causes “autoimmune” symptoms, and is not as rare as believed. I read that “interstitial cystitis (IC) is a chronic inflammatory condition of the submucosal and muscular layers of the bladder, and the cause is currently unknown. Some people with IC have been diagnosed with other conditions such as irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, allergies, and Sjogren’s syndrome, which raises the possibility that interstitial cystitis may be caused by mechanisms that cause these other conditions. In addition, men with IC are frequently diagnosed as having chronic nonbacterial prostatitis, and there is an extensive overlap of symptoms and treatment between the two conditions, leading researchers to posit that the conditions may share the same etiology and pathology.” Sounds like Disseminated Histoplasmosis, doesn’t it?
My coworkers and I were always most ill around April/May/June, presumably since the Mexican Free-tail bats gave birth in Texas during May (and the fungus was most potent), and fall/Thanksgiving to December, for some unknown reason (maybe migrating bats from the north?). We had GI problems, liver problems, weird rashes (erythema nodosum, erythema multiforme, erythema marginatum/annulare, etc.), plantar fasciitis, etc., and I had swollen lymph nodes, hives, lesions, abdominal aura, and started getting migraines and plantar fasciitis in the building, and I haven’t had them since I left. It gave me temporary fecal incontinence, seizures, dark blood from my intestines, tinnitus, nystagmus, blurry vision/floaters/flashes of light, benign paroxysmal positional vertigo, isolated diastolic hypertension, what felt like burning skin, various aches and pains (some felt like pin pricks and pinches), tingling, tremors, “explosions” like fireworks in my head while sleeping, and temporary blindness. Suddenly I was allergic to Comice pears (latex fruit allergy or oral allergy syndrome?). I had insomnia (presumably from the fungus acidifying the blood, releasing adrenaline) and parasomnias. It felt like strong bursts of electrical shocks or steady electrical currents in my body, which now feel like low electrical currents at times, mostly at night. I suddenly had symptoms of several inflammatory/autoimmune diseases, including Fibromyalgia, Sarcoidosis, ALS, MS, Sjogren’s syndrome, etc. that have disappeared since leaving the area and taking nothing but Itraconazole antifungal.
No one, including doctors (we all went to different ones), could figure out what was wrong with us, and I was being killed by my doctor, who mistakenly refused to believe I had it and gave me progressively higher and higher doses of Prednisone (2 years after I already had Disseminated Histoplasmosis) after a positive ANA titer, until I miraculously remembered that a visiting man once told my elementary school class that bats CARRY histoplasmosis. So much of it that they evolved to deal with the photophobia and tinnitus it causes by hunting at night by echolocation. There’s a lot more. I wrote a book about my experience with Disseminated Histoplasmosis called “Batsh#t Crazy,” because bats shed the fungus in their feces and it causes delusions and hallucinations, I suspect by the sclerotia fungal mycelia can form emitting hallucinogens (like psilocybin and dimethyltryptamine) along with inflammation in the CNS. (Schizophrenics have 2X of a chemical associated with yeast, part of the fungal life cycle.)
Thank you for your time,
P.S. Doesn’t this infection share all the same symptoms with Gulf War Syndrome?