A dispute that has been simmering within the Weston A. Price Foundation over the integrity of a brand of so-called “fermented” cod liver oil, burst into the open this weekend.
Last October, I reported about an emerging dispute over Green Pasture fermented cod liver oil and whether it really was fermented and not just rancid, was dividing members, and how it would likely be a distraction at the organization’s national conference last November in Indianapolis.
Well, that simmering dispute has now exploded into a major controversy, with a report by WAPF’s vice president, Kaayla Daniel, contending that Green Pasture cod liver oil, which has been repeatedly and heavily endorsed by the organization, not only isn’t fermented, but is rancid, is a poor source of Vitamin D, and isn’t even from cod.
Reactions to Daniel’s report were swift. Dr. Ron’s Ultra Pure, a supplement company owned by Ron Schmid, a naturopath who has been a long-time WAPF supporter, said on his web site he was no longer carrying Green Pasture cod liver oil and butter oil.
On a separate page, he published a long account of his own experience with heart failure a few years ago, which he attributed to fermented cod liver oil. “In the six years I took fermented cod liver oil, I went from running ten miles a day to being barely able to walk across the room. My cardiologist, a world renowned physician at Yale-New Haven Hospital named Mark Marieb, was at first skeptical of my theory that cod liver oil had caused my heart problems. But as he has followed what he calls my ‘miraculous recovery’ from advanced heart failure (the usual prognosis is death within three to six months, and when first admitted at Yale-New Haven, I was seen by the Heart Transplant Team), he has gradually accepted that the cause of my heart failure was excessive amounts of cod liver oil.”
Dave Wetzel, owner of Green Pasture, called me to request I hold off publishing Kaayla Daniel’s findings. “They will be shown to be false,” he said. He declined to explain what specifically was wrong with her findings, except to suggest that there are problems in how she determines what is rancid. I told him I was publishing something today (Saturday), but would be glad to publish additional information when he has it.
Wetzel added that he has several lawyers studying the report, and that he will be issuing a rebuttal within days. Green Pasture sells huge amounts of its fermented cod liver oil via its web site, holistic providers like Dr. Ron, and at Weston A. Price Foundation events like its national conference, where it has one of the largest exhibits among sponsors.
Sally Fallon Morrell responded to my inquiry by referring me to a WAPF rebuttal last February to the initial concerns expressed last summer and fall about the Green Pasture fermented cod liver oil. It said, in part:
“The Weston A. Price Foundation has recently received several inquiries about the possibility of rancidity in fermented cod liver oil. After conducting our own due diligence, we have concluded that these concerns are unfounded.” It included results of lab reports it says show the Green Pasture product isn’t rancid. It added: “The Weston A. Price Foundation has performed an appropriate due diligence investigation and has found no credible evidence of rancidity or putrefaction in the Green Pastures fermented CLO. We continue to endorse this product.”
The fact that the accusation comes from Kaayla Daniel is revealing of just how deep the fissure over cod liver oil goes at WAPF. Daniel is the WAPF vice president, while Sally Fallon Morrell is its president. (Daniel is also on the board of the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund.) The two are even co-authors of a book published earlier this year, Nourishing Broth.
In her report, Daniel says she first became concerned about the integrity of the Green Pasture cod liver oil last summer, when she heard and read some of the same reports I referred to in my blog post of last October. But she says her efforts to get WAPF to investigate ran into a brick wall.
“As I reeled in the evidence, I came to believe there was something seriously wrong with FCLO. I thought the Weston A. Price Foundation should get to the bottom of it, and advised Sally Fallon Morell that we needed to test the Green Pasture Fermented Cod Liver Oil product properly and not just rely on David Wetzel’s assurances and his testing. I expressed concerns to her and later to WAPF’s Board of Directors about probable rancidity and possible putrefaction, and said I was skeptical of data showing improbably high levels of Vitamin D2 in the product. I furthermore shared reports from clinicians who were finding severe Vitamin D deficiencies among some members who were regularly taking FCLO. As Vice President of WAPF, I felt the safety of our members and the credibility of the foundation were at stake.
“In December 2014, WAPF’s Board of Directors voted against testing based on Sally Fallon Morell’s beliefs, David Wetzel’s assurances, and scientific data of limited and questionable value. I was strongly advised to relax, leave the science to people who could be ‘fair to Dave’ and to toe the FCLO line.
“Instead I went underground and set out on my own to test FCLO at some of the world’s top laboratories.”
She says her tests, at five independent labs in the U.S., Norway, and the Netherlands, confirmed her worst fears. “Lab tests indicate the Green Pasture Fermented Cod Liver Oil is rancid; putrid; low in the fat-soluble vitamins A, D and K; apparently diluted with a trans-fat containing vegetable oil — and not even from cod. We have reliable reports that the X-Factor Gold Butter Oil comes from Argentina, not the Great Plains, and it tests rancid as well. And contrary to Green Pasture’s advertising, Dr. Weston A. Price’s own words make it clear that these are not products he would ever have endorsed.”
Daniel advises users of the “fermented” cod liver oil “take back your power” and “take care not to be duped again.” She offers individuals who feel they have had their health harmed by the product “a free mini appointment” by phone or via Skype. (Contact firstname.lastname@example.org.
In the meantime, Weston A. Price members and supporters reacted with shock and disbelief to the Daniel findings. On The Complete Patient and Nourishing Ourselves Facebook pages, dozens of WAPF members and adherents discussed how to handle the latest cod liver oil findings. A number of people asked their cohorts to remain calm, until Green Pasture and the WAPF come out with further responses. Others, though, were more demanding. Said one: “One thing to remember is whilst it’s easy to say ‘stay calm’, many families, ourselves included, naturally have strong opinions and emotions involved. If in fact this shows to be truly adulterated, putrified oil, how much money was directed from our personal family’s budget and funneled to GP. It’s only a natural response to feel the way many who are questioning the wapf establishment do.”
Yes, Dave W., we need to hear from you. I do believe that Dr. Ron’s issues were directly related to the amount of oil he was taking, which was very large. I look forward to delving into the data and reading Kaayla’s report. We need the truth and then unity behind the truth. Otherwise, people will write off the traditional foods movement.
After reading the report in its entirety, I will continue to take the products from Green Pastures, as well as Rosita’s. I believe both have their own merits. I also believe Dr. Daniels’ report is wrought with innuendo, sensationalism and poor science. What saddens me is how divisive this has become and how articles are being written by those who have not dissected the report.
I have read the initial report. To say the least it is damning, I am never buying another product from Green Pastures again and will never trust the WAPF again either. This conclusion is based on this report and the lab testing being true, and I find it very credible. At minimum, I think anyone dealing with these supplements should not continue to use them, as they are at least shown to not be transparent about what they are are, how they create them or where they came from.
To me, just the discovered fact that Green Pastures does not and has not ever revealed its “fermentation” process, its source of cod liver oil, what kind of cod it is, where it is from or fished, or explained in real scientific terms how it makes impossible claims of nutrients that could not exist in its product, has made me feel like a moron for not realizing what a bunch of nonsense the whole product is.
The cover up allegations and refusal to at least disprove these concerns as they became known are disturbing too, which is why my judgment extends to the WAPF credibility and not just Green Pastures.
We know the unregulated supplement industry is always ripe for scam, mislabeling and false promises, especially when the consumer is typically one desperate for a remedy whose conventional treatments are unsuccessful, or when hype can easily replace evidence in the mind of an uneducated average consumer, who the company has no requirement to provide truthful, evidence-based claims too.
In the middle of this environment, we try to find organizations that will rise above this temptation and value integrity so that we can reap benefits from supplements that are transparent and efficacious. WAPF and Green Pastures have given us the appearance of integrity, however if they provide no hard, unquestionable evidence that these lab reports are false, and also persist in refusing to reveal in detail the actual process they use to “ferment” and the source and chain of custody of their “oil”, then there is no other option than to dismiss them as another scam company, high on vague promises, with no details provided, preying on the uneducated through hype and misrepresentation.
Comment from another article:
Clearly, an important disagreement on the Board of Directors of the Weston A Price Foundation has broken out into the public domain concerning the contents, and the quality of the Green Pasture Cod Liver.
First, it should be clearly stated that that The Weston A Price Foundation has come to an important cross roads. The Weston A Price Foundation has over the years built a huge base of TRUST within and outside of it membership. This base of TRUST is so strong that I think it would be safe to say that just about any recommendation that the Weston A Price Foundation makes has immediate credibility both inside and outside it membership.
Because of this enormous base of TRUST, the WAPF has been able to attract “sponsors” that contribute large amounts of money to the WAPF in exchange for an “Official Endorsement” of these specific products by the WAPF.
If my understanding is correct, the number one level of sponsorship for the WAPF is the “GOLD SPONSOR”. That is to say, GOLD Sponsors give the most amount of money to the WAPF. And, if I understand correctly Green Pasture IS one of the FEW GOLD Sponsors. And, in exchange for the sponsorship fees paid by Green Pasture, the Weston A Price Foundation GIVES it’s HIGHEST LEVEL OF ENDORSEMENT. And, this WAPF Endorsement of Green Pasture products is strongly communicated to all of its members
This arrangement is all well and good as long as no questions of QUALITY, RELIABILITY or SAFTEY arise. BUT, the moment any such questions arise / become a part of the public domain, IMMEDIATELY THERE IS A QUESTION OF CONFLICT OF INTEREST on the part of the Weston A Price Foundation. WHY? Because the WAPF has taken money in exchange for their endorsement. THERE IS NO GETTING AROUND THIS FACT!
Anything that any member of the WAPF Board of Directors says or states concerning Green Pasture products is CLEARLY a CONFLICT OF INTEREST. And as such, a huge public relations disaster! Hundreds, if not thousands and thousands of WAPF members and their friends are now ACTIVELY questioning BOTH the credibility of the Weston A Price Foundation and their FINANCIAL PARTNER (GOLD SPONSOR), Green Pasture. This is indeed a CREDIBILITY DISASTER for an organization that is founded on credibility.
WHAT CAN YOU DO? WHAT MUST YOU DO?
1. The WAPF Board of Directors MUST, in unison, inform their members and the public that they will immediately select TWO highly reputable, independent laboratories to test the Green Pasture products in question.
2. These two test laboratories MUST obtain their product samples from out in
the market place and NOT directly from Green Pasture directly. The fact is,
an highly rated independent laboratory knows exactly how to obtain the
product test samples.
3. The WAPF MUST, at all cost , AVOID the “Coca Cola Syndrome” and
insure that the TWO test laboratories are NOT influenced in any way by
the WAPF or Green Pasture.
4. Obtain the services of a TOP Pubic Relations firm to guide you through this
situation / problem and to make SURE that the WAPF does not damage its
incredible reputation. I am sure that this would include informing your
membership and the public of exactly what you are doing and then, say no
more until the results of BOTH testing laboratories are completed.
I would make it a goal to complete this independent laboratory testing by
31 October 2015 and as such, be in a position to announce the results of the TWO independent testing laboratories at the Weston A Price Wise Traditions Conference in November 2015.
David T: In the 2014 Wise Traditions Conference Program, Green Pasture Products is listed a Platinum Sponsor, along with two others. There are eight Gold Sponsors, two Silver Sponsors, and fourteen Sponsoring Exhibitors.
And who would you suggest pay for all this testing and public relations firm?
As if WAPF has much to do with the actual findings of Mr. Price anyway. Sheesh.
Well Wetzel? I have never understood why seemingly good people respect David Wetzel. The first and only time I ordered GP CLO David Wetzel responded to my inquiry email, regarding my missing product, in a cruel and disheartening manner. I was put off by his petty behavior and course treatment, so I quietly took my money and walked away. WAPF has done wonders for our health, but WAPF or not, I knew there was something wrong with Wetzel. I would be beyond furious if GP had been cheating me and hurting my child for the last ten years. Ron Schmidt on the other hand has my upmost respect. Why is WAPF not questioning this? Wanna correct my grammar now Wetzel? Let’s see you make this go away by splashing some red ink on it Dave. I love karma.
I used to be a die hard follower of the WAPF and have even written an article in Wise Traditions about 9 years ago. See http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/going-gluten-free/
I used Green Pastures cod liver oil before it was fermented, and then when they switched to fermented, my intuition just told me something was not ok with it. I never used it and will not use it. I know a lot about fermentation and knew that you can’t ferment oil, only carbohydrate. Thanks for verifying what I suspected.
My other concern with the WAPF diet is the liberal use of animal fats and butter. Animal fats and butter concentrate environmental chemicals, such as dioxin. This is a scientific fact.
When this was covered in a Wise Traditions article by Chris Masterjohn, http://www.westonaprice.org/…/dioxins-in-animal-foods…/ they just brushed it off saying that the Vitamin A in the fats would protect the body from those toxins. That is just not true. These toxins bio-accumulate in our fat cells and cause damage to many systems of the body, particularly the endocrine system.
My story is that I ate a ton of butter during several years when I was following WAPF guidelines. I also happened to live near a dioxin polluted town and I got high levels of these toxins in my body from the raw dairy I was consuming.
I also ate butter and meats from various farms around the country. The truth is that all butter and animal fats concentrate fat-soluble environmental chemicals.
Thinking I was getting healthier, my body was slowly becoming more toxic. I ended up with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, hypothyroidism, adrenal exhaustion, and other health problems.
A blood test showed that I was actually allergic to the class of chemicals that dioxin is in. I was advised by my MD to STOP eating all locally grown food, butter, and raw milk. I believe that my body got sensitized to dioxins from the large amounts I was exposed to in the animal fats I was eating during this time (not just from my local sources).
I got extremely sick and I had to do a sauna detox program to get those toxins out of my body. After I recovered my health, I became a Naturopath and now help others regain their health.
I am sad to say that I am no longer a supporter of WAPF, due to this type of misinformation.
I believe I was harmed by the WAPF dietary guidelines, and will not recommend their diet to my clients.
The WAPF is keeping their head in the sand about the level of pollutants in these high fat foods. But this is a REAL and growing problem that needs to be addressed!
And Dr. Price never advised that we ferment cod liver oil or take it in high doses!
We don’t live in Dr. Weston Price’s world anymore, so what worked then, may not be a good idea now.
Thanks for getting the word out about this!
I’m sorry you had the problems you did, but just because you had problems with this due to high levels of environmental toxins in your local area does not invalidate the concept of eating local and/or eating raw animal fats for everyone else, nor does it invalidate the general principles espoused by the WPF in this regard. I’d be very surprised if they did not in fact address this potential issue.
I am curious what diet you follow that allows you to be healthier, if it’s not a whole food diet from locally sourced food. Is it still a whole food diet?
I eat a whole foods diet of lots of vegetables, nuts, seeds, fruit, and wild-caught fish or naturally raised poultry, but not any animal fats. I use coconut oil, olive oil, non-fermented cod liver oil, and very few grains. I continue to avoid locally grown food from that certain area, but have other sources of high quality produce and meats. See my response to Charles above for more info on animal fats.
Dioxin is in ALL animal fats and butter, no matter where they come from.
I bought all of the butter I ate from Amish farms from Pennsylvania and meats from various farms. I only bought raw milk from a local farmer in that area that had the pollution.
The WAPF guidelines for a diet high in animal fats will increase someone’s body burden of endocrine-disrupting chemicals that can lead to health problems, no matter where you get your food.
The reason why traditional cultures could eat lots of fatty foods with no ill effects is because there were no man-made chemicals in the environment back then (100 years ago).
Nowadays, it’s an entirely different story. The liver does detoxify many of the chemicals we are exposed to, but the problem is that it cannot keep up with the incredible number that it must handle on a daily basis (average estimation is we are exposed to more than 500 chemicals a day). What it cannot deal with, will be stored in our fat cells where they slowly bioaccumulate and harm our health.
When you look at traditional cultures nowadays who eat animal fats, such as the Inuit, the research is showing alarming amounts of dioxins and other fat soluble chemicals in their bodies, close to the level that causes health problems in laboratory animals.
Given the situation with these chemicals in our environment, I don’t think it’s wise to consume large amounts of animal fats. We don’t live in the same world that Weston Price did.
This is indeed interesting information I had not considered. I do much of my cooking using coconut oil because I’ve read many good things about that oil. Maybe a traditional Mediterranean diet of lots of veggies, fish, nuts with olive oil as the fat of choice is a better direction than lots of animal meats/fats.
I had always wondered how do you ferment cod liver oil without it being rancid? I know they ferment fish for fish sauces used in Asian foods, but not just the oil.
@ Bob: Traditional Mediterranean diets did not include “lots of veggies”. Here, read this as he can explain it much better than I. http://www.tendergrassfedmeat.com/2010/10/05/call-it-medical-not-mediterranean/
Hi Becky, the information that you shared about dioxin, is indeed very useful and disturbing at the same time. Do you mind sharing where do you source your meat, dairy and eggs from currently? How do you know that the source is not contaminated with dioxins? Also how often do you consume these products? What about getting fat soluble vitamins that WAPF praises s much? Thanks for your answer in advance!
Amish produced food doesn’t mean it’s healthy. The majority of Amish farms are not organic. I’ve never understood why people buy foods that are “Amish” and assume it is healthier than anywhere else.
If you were having trouble accessing this site on Sunday, you weren’t alone. It seems as if the site was overwhelmed with traffic, due to the release of findings on fermented cod liver oil by Kaayla Daniel. Our server host has made some adjustments, including made more capacity available, and hopefully we are back to normal. Thanks for your patience.
That would be complete patience right David?
Btw I have been using Rosita Real Foods Extra Virgin CLO from Norway for a long while and am very happy that it works for me YMMV google it. It’s not cheap but what is good health worth.
Oh ya, and just as a quick aside have there been any reports anywhere of illness from this GPCLO or is it another “raw milk can kill you” story? Sometimes life is a pickle, ferment.
I purchased 3 bottles of GPFCLO at the 2014 WAP conference. Thought, foolishly perhaps, that a larger dose than recommended, at least for a while would be okay and started taking the CLO during the conference. Since that conference I have had, 24 hours a day, an extremely irregular and a very fast heartbeat. Had a great time and leaned much useful information, but kept wondering if there was some connection to the conference or just a coincidence, until Ron Schmid told his story. I am not taking sides, with so many good and knowledgeable people involved, since the science is beyond my knowledge. I used up the 3 bottles before Ron’s story and will not risk buying more. Did the 2 tablespoons per day cause the problem or was it really just a coincidence? Did my Lyme disease or my normal practice of taking large amounts of LEF fish oil become a factor? Probably will never know if CLO caused the problem or initiated a latent heart problem. Will wait patiently until story on GPFCLO become a lot clearer and I do not want to get into a lot of discussion as there is nothing else to tell. Will write again if heart problem is solved or just goes away when Lyme is conquered.
Hi Dave, In your conversation(s) with Daniel, what reasons did she give for blacking out the names of the labs used for testing? Just coming across this debate, and am withholding judgment until a rebuttal is issued, but it is hard to do due dilligence on Daniel’s findings when many of the sources of her information remain anonymous.
You can find the reason Kaayla Daniel blacked out the names of the labs by reading her report again. She said not identifying the labs was a requirement of the labs.
I read the report, which prompted the question. Perhaps I should have worded my question more specifically, but the intent behind it is clear enough.
Why would a lab require Daniel to keep their identity anonymous?
The double-standard is that, while Daniel criticizes Wetzel for lack of transparency (who from what ive seen is open about who’s testing for him), her own sources are not fully transparent.
Green Pastures labs did not have a problem releasing test results. Any lab we have ever used did not have problems with us releasing test results. I am very skeptical of so many labs that are not willing to back their claims or release their name. I will continue to support Green Pastures as I have seen great results with tooth decay, until their is total transparency from both sides. At this time Green Pastures is the transparent side. To me transparency means everything.
Because the lab is a third party in this case, and not dealing directly with the supplier. This is standard lab procedure to protect the lab from being sued (hence Daniel’s comments about her having to sign legal releases in her report) when people send in products for testing that they themselves did not produce. GP can list the labs because they are the supplier, and there is no third party involved.
I stopped taking GP FCLO and HV butter oil nearly 3 years ago, after a brief email exchange with Dave Getzel where I questioned the use on his site of writings by a-genius-among-the-planets “Aajonus Vonderplanitz” (not his real name), “PhD” (from a diploma mill). Dave’s response made me doubt that his judgment is sound.
Sally Fallon Morrell asked me to post the following as a comment from her:
I would not call it a falling out It is the opinion of one board member.
By the way, she says it “isn’t even from cod,” but pollock. Alaskan pollock is cod.
The Alaska pollock or walleye pollock (Gadus chalcogrammus, formerly Theragra chalcogramma) is a marine fish species of the cod family Gadidae. Alaska pollock is a semipelagic schooling fish widely distributed in the North Pacific with largest concentrations found in the eastern Bering Sea.
While belonging to the same family as the Atlantic pollock, the Alaska pollock is not a member of the same Pollachius genus. Alaska pollock was long put in its own genus Theragra, but more recent research has shown it is rather closely related to the Atlantic cod and should be moved back to genus Gadus in which it was originally described. Furthermore, Norwegian pollock (Theragra finnmarchica), a rare fish of Norwegian waters, is likely the same species as the Alaska pollock.
Alaska pollock and Pacific cod are both members of the cod family (Gadidae) of fishes, and are related to Atlantic cod. Pacific cod are also called gray cod or true cod. Both pollock and cod are demersal fish, because they spend most of their lives close to the ocean floor. Unlike salmon, these species are rarely caught close to shore. Instead, they are typically found in deep water several miles from shore. Pollock and cod are known for their high fecundity, which means the females produce large numbers of eggs. Both species spawn many times during their life cycles. These attributes enable both species to withstand natural fluctuations in ocean conditions and to recover from environmental changes.
Sally Fallon Morrell
This comparison shows some nutritional differences (i.e. total Vitamin D higher in cod).
I hope you didn’t jump the gun and that we figure out the facts and all.. Here’s the latest WAPF’s response on line – http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/concerns-about-cod-liver-oil/
Dave Wetzel of Green Pasture posted an initial rebuttal to the Kaayla Daniel report, essentially denying there are problems with his company’s FCLO. He says rats show high absorption of Vitamin D. He also says he extended an invite (all expenses paid) a year ago to Kaayla Daniel to view his production processes, and that she never answered. (I suspect she didn’t want to feel beholden, as she might if GP paid all expenses.) He says there will be a more substantial report to follow.
So far I am unimpressed with both Sally from WAPF’s response as well as this latest response from Green Pastures.
Given the volume of evidence and concerning allegations I expect a full listing of responses to each one detailed eventually, and even if that is not available yet, to at least provide clear denials to these allegations.
Instead, Sally has pointed us to a Wikipedia article claiming that Alaskan Pollock is still technically “Cod” even though it is a cheaper version that was never disclosed until a DNA test run in the report made it unavoidable. If anything this has the appearance of a technical legal argument against a point that really is not even the tip of the iceberg of problems this report raised, which she has completely ignored. Especially since the report already agreed that it legally is still cod, but is simply a cheaper and obvious “bait & switch” kind of use of this oil instead of the expected North Atlantic Cod, especially when they use “Oslo” in their products name. Sally may be right that is is technically Cod, but by focusing on this minor point in the ocean of allegations, it seems to me she is trying to defend or cherry pick the argument and avoid a serious candid discussion of the evidence presented.
Green Pastures has similarly not addressed or denied the reports many concerning points. They have relied on a rat model to focus on a Vitamin D discrepancy found with their produces by 5 independent labs. This is fine additional evidence to the one point of Vitamin D, however we know that they know how they ferment their cod liver oil, who their suppliers are, what the chain of custody is and what kind of cod liver oil it is, and they can easily reveal that information to confirm or deny the evidence against them. Yet they remain silent on these points they know. Because it is so easy to simply be transparent about these things in light of these questions, sharing that info would obviously not be in their best interest. In the legal world, this would be something called res ipsa loquitor, and they would have the burden to disprove what the evidence shows, because they are in control of the knowledge to do so, and if they don’t then the law will consider the allegation’s true. I think that is what we have here unless he shares completely and transparently the full extent of the “fermentation” process and the source and chain of custody of their “oil.” As a result, silence is damning and I for one will support a more transparent company with nothing to hide.
Actually, the Wikipedia comment quoted by Sally Fallon does NOT say that Pollock is cod. It only says that Pollock is RELATED to cod, being in the same genus. If you search Cod in Wikipedia, it says that there are members of the Gadus family that are NOT cod, and uses Alaskan Pollock as an example.
Another assessment of the whole scoffofal here: http://fermentacap.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=41&Itemid=200
So far neither Sally Fallon nor GP have managed anything like a reasonable explanation.
As far as the FDA is concerned, labeling Pollock as Cod is fraud, and GP has already admitted that they do it. A lawsuit would be a sure win for the plaintiffs. The FDA forbids mislabeling because of the significantly lower value of Pollock.
Laura, when the Cod article at Wikipedia says Alaskan pollock is not called cod, it is referring to common names, which are separate from scientific names. It’s not surprising that Alaskan Pollock does not have a common name of cod, because until 2013, it was still officially classified in another family altogether, the Theragra. This reclassification impacted only Alaskan pollock and not other pollock belonging to the genus Pollachius, such as Atlantic pollock.
To say Pollock is RELATED to cod is meaningless. Genetic research in the last decade has found that Alaskan Pollock does belong to the cod genus. It’s as much a cod as Atlantic, Pacific, and Greenland cod. “In fact, Alaska pollock are closer to Atlantic cod than Pacific cod are to Atlantic cod.” (1) The decision to place it in the cod genus has been recognized in the 2013 edition of the American Fisheries Society Common and Scientific Names of Fishes (2), a far more authoritative source than Wikipedia.
Up until 2013, there was no basis whatsoever to call Alaskan Pollock cod, and if Alaskan Pollock was included in GPP FCLO before 2013, that usage seems especially egregious. Even though the FDA’s Seafood List lists the change in the scientific name, it still says the only acceptable market names are Alaska pollock, walleye pollock, and Pollock. NOAA Fisheries says “sellers and distributors in the U.S. market should continue business as usual in order to remain in compliance with FDA regulations. Don’t change your labels and don’t change your codes. For the time being, it’s business as usual.” (1)
If Sally Fallon and Dave Wetzel and supporters want to say Alaskan Pollock is cod, they are scientifically correct. However, as far as labeling is concerned, it is still an illegal to label Alaskan Pollock as cod. Any change likely won’t happen until 2022.(1)
The defenders of GP are also ethically incorrect. People were expecting the traditional clo produced with Atlantic Cod. They can hand wave cod=pollock all day long but it won’t change the fact people felt deceived; because they were.
As a WA[F chapter leader, it seems to me that the only way to have a rational discussion about Kaayla Daniel’s report is for the WAPF Board of Directors to pay for tests of Green Pasture cod liver oil from the same five labs that Daniels’ used with full disclosure about the names of the labs and their results. This controversy can never be laid to rest until “apples to apples” testing is done.
I could not log in, in the usual manner. Told me it could not establish a connection??! Whatever.
I found this information on cod, don’t know if it’s pertinent to this discussion or not, but it was interesting. I, too, was surprised that wikipedia was sourced as a credible site for information – regarding anything. http://orma.com/sea-life/cod-facts-cod-faq/
Also, Kaayla Daniel is a doctor – if she wanted to visit Green Pastures, I’m sure she could have unless there were time constraints or something. But simply being offered a freebie trip that she might not have wanted misconstrued doesn’t really sound like a good reason to turn down his offer of a tour, regardless of who was paying, and it would have made for a more credible article, that’s for certain.
I agree with Joanie – upfront testing using the same labs is the only way to solve this dilemma. I don’t take the stuff so I don’t care what happens, but I have had faith in the WAPF for a long time and I’ve championed their site to hundreds of people over the past eight or ten years, so I need to know if I’m still on solid ground with their recommendations about other things.
D. Smith, the article at your orma.com link was written before 4/12/13, the date of the first comment. That was before Alaskan pollock was reclassified into the Gadus genus, so that’s why they don’t include Alaskan pollock as a cod species.
Yeah, well that’s why I mentioned that I didn’t know if it would still be pertinent to this discussion/conversation or not. It’s just something I ran across while doing a general search.
Correction: that would be 10 labs that Kaayla Daniels’ used, not 5.
This ongoing squabble is beginning to sound similar to the falling-out at rawsome.
Pick your poison folks…mine’s krill oil.
@ Ken: Do you mean that krill oil is your poison of choice or just that you think it’s plain poison? I know dr mercola pushes the stuff a lot, but I tried using it for a while several years ago and it made my legs numb, just like motrin does. Hmmmmm.
D, I use the word poison in jest.
I started taking krill oil about 4-5 months ago and I have no reason to believe that it’s poison…that being said however, someone might think otherwise. As far as cod liver oil is concerned, when I was young it tasted like poison to me. In fact, I think I told my mother so using that very expletive.
@ Ken: Ah, I see! Well I may have found the secret to my problem with numb legs from krill oil (but it hasn’t helped with the motrin angle, not that it matters because I try not to use motrin any more than necessary). My krill has astaxanthin in it but apparently not enough, so I ordered a separate bottle of astaxanthin and take that along with my krill oil and haven’t had a problem since doing that. My body must have needed a few more antioxidants or something. Problem solved. ;o)
I would like to see the lab reports…the REPORTS, not Ms Daniels’s commentary on them. If anyone could point me to a source or link I would appreciate your emailing me that info to email@example.com or firstname.lastname@example.org
The actual lab reports can be viewed if you scroll all the way to the end of Dr. Daniel’s analysis.
Regardless of the reports, it is a fact that oil cannot be fermented, only carbohydrates. This is basic science. It is misleading to label an oil product as fermented when in fact it is rancid. Likewise, it is misleading and a sincere form of dissembling to dicker over whether pollock is a type of cod when the product itself is called Fermented COD Liver Oil. There is a significant difference in the way that cod and pollock are fished. Pollock are generally caught via the method of trawling which is an exceedingly damaging way to acquire fish, in that there are considerable by catch as well as major disruption to the ecosystem that exists on the sea floor. By contrast cod, actual cod, is generally caught on single line which makes it more expensive to produce but provides a more accountable and sustainable fish product. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why someone would want to make people think they were buying a more expensive product but substituting an inexpensive product. There are many issues here that can be seen to be fraudulent even without reading the lab reports regarding GP FCLO.
It’s probably more expensive – in fact too expensive – because the fish are caught in the sea and Nebraska is nowhere NEAR a sea, so the fish have to be frozen (or whatever?) and shipped to GP to begin with. It never made sense to me that a place in NE was producing fish liver oils when there are so many more logistical (point of origin to point of consumer purchase) locations where this could be done.
The livers are fermented; not the oil. It is Fermented Cod LIVER Oil – oil of the cod liver that has been fermented.
This article from that bastion of American propaganda journalism about fish oil will just help spread the confusion:
Now if only some enterprising pharma company develops a synthetic substitute I’m sure they would rally behind that cause, if the advertising money is right. Real fish, not so much.
The WAPF board does have a conflict of interest here. Kaayla Daniel’s report is powerful; it is damning. Neither Sally nor Dave Wetzel have so far given any sort of reasonable response, in Dave’s case, I suspect it is because he knows the jig is up. I have great respect for Sally, and will be attending Wise Traditions in November; WAPF is its members, and I always learn a great deal from good scientists at the annual conference. It is unfortunate that so many of us were taken in by the claims made for FCLO. Samuel Langhorne Clemens would have seen right through it.
Let’s not forget that cod livers don’t “ferment”, they rot. As the livers rot and putrify, the proteins denature and oils oxidize and become rancid. Maybe 150 years ago when the ocean was clean, this rancidity was the worst of it, but not anymore. Fat soluble environmental pollutants unsafe for human consumption are concentrated in these livers and end up in the rancid oil that is Blue Ice FCLO. Yes, consuming whole foods and fermented, live foods are wonderful ways to support ones health and immunity. However, in this case too many have been fooled by the name of this product, wooed by the story, thinking that it is a “live” food or a whole food. It is not. It is putrified and rancid. Loaded with free fatty acids that are a product of that very process of oxidation. Not unlike rotting flesh from a dead animal is certainly a “natural” phenomenon but is not a viable food source fit for consumption by humans. This is why humans use fermentation, salting, drying and cooking as means to preserve the natural foods once they are hunted or gathered. In the case of FCLO, “fermented” it is a misnomer. Remember that only carbohydrates ferment. NOT OILS. This is not like kimchi. What amazed those of us in the nutrition world who actually look at the science, not just the romantic stories is that it took this long. Others have tested this product and not reported findings due to legal liability. So THANK YOU Kaayla Daniel for taking the unpopular path toward truth. Bravo.
The livers are salted and allowed to ferment – this is enzymatic fermentation in large part with some bacterial action from the liver.
If the livers were salted then they wouldn’t ferment, they would cure as all moisture would be drawn from the tissues. It would be liver jerky in that case, not “fermented” liver, it seems to me.
The heart problems likely came from the running which is known to be inflammatory and damaging to the heart.
I know marathon running is not great for health, but to the point of not being able to walk across a room? That sounds unreasonable.
Please watch my video covering Dr. Daniel’s shocking new ebook about Green Pastures cod liver oil!
I watched your video. Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about and you are just promoting what you heard. Do your research. You made numerous false statements.
A report from one another of our beloved government institutions that we know is out solely to seek truth for public benefitand not profits for the pharma industry, also adding to the public confusion of what’s good and bad as proven “scientifically.” Except they straddle the fence and say it’s good but maybe not, and don’t even mention cod liver oil.
Geez, when you start out these studies with people already in their mid seventies, how much do you expect them to improve over the next five years? How would that compare to a study of people in their mid fifties, sixties, or their nineties? There’s exact science for you. Apples and tigers.
“…they’ve found that regular consumption of fish is associated with lower rates of AMD, cardiovascular disease, and possibly dementia. “We’ve seen data that eating foods with omega-3 may have a benefit for eye, brain, and heart health.”
Did they normalize for GMO fish, farmed or wild, or mercury and other heavy metal contamination factors? Nah that would be too expensive and might produce unintended results and consequences.
It seems to me the “smoking gun” here is the presence of 3.22% trans fat in the tested sample. From Dr. Daniels report: “Dr. Gjermund Vogt, a leading authority on fish oils says ‘No authentically raw or mildly processed cod liver oil will contain trans fats [indicating] that another oil has been added to this oil’.” The idea that I’ve been consuming trans fats these past five years or so thoroughly pisses me off. It is past time for WAPF to thoroughly investigate this product, and thus regain the trust of the membership. Integrity is absolutely essential to its survival.
This is obviously an extremely hot topic. When things are this hot….it is best to not touch them. Learned that in preschool. It is best to learn from them and make careful notes and carefully investigate more. WAP has done so much good and so has Dr. Daniels. Time to reflect and get the cold hard facts from independent labs and a qualified unbiased 3rd party investigator…or several of them. Let the facts speak for themselves. The truth will always set you free.
“When things are this hot….it is best to not touch them” – What the heck does that even mean? Keep being quiet about basic chemistry and these damaging fats? Yes mark we know you have benefited greatly from your associations with weston price but your little preschool lesson is ridiculous in light of what’s at stake, which is mass cover up and negligence with the promotion of these oils.
Dave’s a really nice guy. Learned of his products back in 2002 from my son’s MD. My son did great on the butter oil which we mixed with Springreen CLO. When we mentioned to our MD that Dave was offering fermented CLO, he replied why would anyone do that? I told him Dave said that’s what the Romans did. His quick reply, yeah and you know how that went…
Well it makes sense that CLO should not be sold by anyone as a “fermented” product. Wish Dave would have stuck to his original products. We stopped using them several years back so I can’t speak to their efficacy in more recent times. but the original ones were great.
Lastly while I love many of the ideas from WAPF, I’ve learned first hand that any cookie cutter, one size fits all- diet, supplement program, or even dietary oil cannot be good for *every* individual. One person’s cure is another person’s poison. It ALWAYS depends on the individual. Our cell membranes need both sterols and fatty acids to maintain their optimal structure and function. Skewing our intake to one extreme or the other can’t be a good idea for anyone.
While trying to remember where I read the Mark Twain quote about phoney-baloney oil, it dawned on me that it was in Nourishing Traditions (pp. 150-151),quoting from Life on the Mississippi. A good read, from one of our sagest critics.
@ Gary: Yes, oleo tried hard to fool people into believing a falsehood for many years, but people FINALLY caught on to the truth about real butter when they started questioning why their grandparents were so much healthier (w/o all the BS medical nannying). Yes, a very good little read from NT.
I’ve been questioning olive oil for many, many years. Every time I bought a bottle, more expensive than the last (so I thought I’d get a non-rancid product), I was horrified when I opened the bottle and smelled the rancidity, and if not detectable by schnoz, it was certainly detectable by tongue/taste. I wondered – – “was I the only person noticing this and therefore it was just the bottles I was buying?” but, no. Others had begun to notice, as well. What was truly mystifying was the fact that even though my bottle of OO or EVOO specifically said “Italian” or “from beautiful Italy” I discovered it was no such thing. That’s when I began to dig deeper into truth in advertising and also discovered that it wasn’t even really olive oil. Talk about a shocker.
How do I get my original avatar back, please?
Things are taking an uglier turn:
From Dr. Ron’s site:
I am saddened to report that today Sally Fallon Morell severed all ties with me and our company, cancelling my scheduled talk on heart disease at the upcoming Conference and our Gold Sponsor status that goes back over ten years.
Her stated reason was my expressing on our website my opinion that Dr. Daniel’s report indicates that fermented cod liver oil played a role in my heart failure. To all of our friends among the Foundation’s members, Conference attendees and sponsors: we will miss you.
Yes, things have definitely taken an uglier turn. Sounds a little like blaming the victim. But Ron’s assessment must have really pissed off Sally, because it cost WAPF: a Gold Sponsorship runs $5,000.
Yes, this is truly ugly. Dr. Ron is a fine man, whom I greatly respect, and this is wrong. It sounds vindictive. What the hell is going on? I greatly fear for the future of this fine organization. Is it becoming a dictatorship? The product in question is clearly mislabeled-oil simply cannot be fermented, and pollock is not cod. Marine oils are largely composed of unsaturated fats, which are fragile; when I read that the livers were in vats in greenhouses I was aghast. I will be at Wise Traditions in Anaheim, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were fireworks, or attendance lower than previously.
This is sad news, but I really hope to get to the bottom of it all. I just want the truth like so many others.
I have started using Rosita’s Extra Virgin CLO and Butter Oil today to see the difference. Maybe using GP is why my gallbladder never worked properly on digesting my fats, even tho we eat only good fats like coconut oil, EVOO and Kerrygold butter and stay away from processed oils for years.
As indicated above, yesterday, Sally Fallon Morell informed me that my presentation on heart disease at the upcoming Wise Traditions Conference, and my company’s Gold Sponsor status, had been cancelled. Her stated reason was my expressing on our website my opinion that Dr. Kaayla Daniel’s report indicates that fermented cod liver oil played a major role in my heart failure three years ago.
Today, I have resigned my position on the Honorary Board of the Weston A. Price Foundation because of the Foundation’s continued endorsement of Green Pasture products.
For several years, my company has donated 5% of our profits to the WAPF, the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund, the Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation, and other non-profit foundations. We will no longer donate to the WAPF.
To those who have questioned my motives in helping pay the expense of Dr. Daniel’s laboratory testing of Green Pasture products: my company marketed these products to stores, health care practitioners and our retail customers for over ten years. When Dr. Daniel spoke with me at last November’s Conference about her concerns, I felt it was appropriate to assist her in getting to the truth. My hope was that the products would be exonerated. My actions since I read her report on August 8th have been dictated by the results. As to my failure to investigate sooner – every day I say a prayer that includes the words, “Make me wise so that I may understand the things you have taught my people.” I have a ways to go.
From a purely political angle, this was a bad, BAD move by Sally. It makes it seem like she is bought and paid for by Dave Wetzel and Green Pasture Products. I’m praying this is one of those things that work together for good for you.
Steve, the stonewalling is reminiscent of the way the CDC responds to questions of vaccine safety (the oxymoron of all oxymorons). Not a word from Dave about the sources of the ingredients in his products. Yes, a bad move. Trust is gone. WAPF is a powerful, wonderful force for good; I’ve met so many remarkable people at the conferences. I hope it survives.
Dr. Daniel’s report is bogus.
The Weston A. Price Foundation has posted their response, in a great Q&A with Sally Fallon Morell. It is in full support of Dave Wetzel, Green Pasture, and their FCLO products. Of course it is at the same time invalidating Dr. Daniel’s report. I love the response, and I think it adds a lot of good insights:
I have been saying similar things on other blogs, and in particular in responses to Chris Kresser’s initial take. I expect to see him come around soon after seeing the WAPF report. My own response calling Chris out is here:
I will be interesting to see the politics unfold after this.
Enjoy your Green Pasture FCLO everyone 🙂
@ Victor: You’re not interested in “seeing the politics unfold”. You’ve already made up your mind. Actually, so have I, and I don’t even take CLO or FCLO and haven’t after the first bottle I ordered a long time ago, so I have no dog in this fight. Just a lot of respect that is now kaput.
I think there is a proverbial fox in the henhouse when an association like WAPF throws their support to their “contributor” before it supports the findings and efforts of one of their own like Dr. Daniel – and after only a short time with no more information than they had before. Are they not willing to look into the possibility that Dr. Daniel is correct? I’ve seen nothing from anyone to convince me that she is not correct. I’ve seen no “new” evidence from WAPF, just old recycled opinions. Personally, I see too much evidence that WAPF is more interested in its donors. I’m really truly sorry to have to say that but my faith is dwindling quickly.
But that’s just me.
If you are not a user of the products, then I am not sure why you are even commenting. Just the same, on top of the existing mountain of lab tests, expert opinions, and such, you will find new data streaming forward in coming weeks that clearly support the Green Pasture FCLO. Case in point is this new post from Chris Masterjohn that directly addresses the issue:
I still hold a lot of respect for WAPF, but I lost all respect for Dr. Kaayla Daniel as soon as I started reading her report. It becomes immediately apparent that she has some ulterior motive, and that is very sad.
@ Victor: It’s not that I “don’t” take CLO from GP, it’s that I *won’t* take it. Not after the first bottle many years ago. That doesn’t mean I can’t have an opinion about what’s going down over at WAPF.
I’m sorry but my money is on Dr. Daniel. What possible ulterior motive could she have? She has much more to lose by coming forward.
Ultimately, however, we (the public) may never know the entire truth about this whole dust-up.
Chris Masterjohn has an excellent piece on The Daily Lipid about this issue. I suggest everyone concerned about it read this. The science is neither condemnatory nor exculpatory of FCLO. The trust issue is a matter of judgement. I no longer use Green Pastures Products, largely because I don’t need them for optimal health. My trust must be earned, and in this case, it hasn’t been.
I guess one person’s view of “excellent” is different than another’s view, as well. Yes, Gary, you’re right about one thing – “the science is neither condemnatory nor exculpatory of FCLO.” It sure isn’t!! So we’re right back where we started. Full circle.
[quote from one of Chris Masterjohn's blips in the comment section of his article at the Daily Lipid] . . . I feel comfortable expressing my confidence that the oil is probably beneficial for people who tolerate it well.[end quote]
The oil is PROBABLY beneficial – – – for people who tolerate it well. Really? For people who tolerate it well?
Whew, fancy footwork. I ask you, what kind of assessment is that? Actually, it’s exactly the type of assessment I would have expected. That doesn’t sound very “confident” to me.
He also has this to say, in that same comment: [quote]“I don’t believe the oil is rancid in the sense of having undergone lipid peroxidation. Personally, I have tried to avoid making specific product recommendations.”[end quote]
In the sense of having undergone lipid peroxidation? This is the dictionary meaning of the word rancid: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/rancid
Is lipid peroxidation the only form of rancidity?
Some more dancing: [quote from the actual article]“I have had a contractual relationship with the Weston A. Price Foundation (WAPF) for years, in which I receive compensation as an independent contractor for various forms of writing, speaking, and consulting. This constitutes a minor but significant proportion of my income.”[end quote] Hey, it’s either minor, or it’s significant. I can’t see how it could be both. Nevertheless, it has to have had some bearing on his words.
I read his entire article last night and then again this morning, and all I can see is a lot of dancing. In truth, he shouldn’t have written an article at all until he had some clear-cut things to say. He’s trying to defend three different views of one story: WAPF, Dr. Daniel and Green Pastures. When you have to try to write something and not step on anyone’s toes, well, that’s impossible.
Again, that’s just my opinion and I’m sure a lot of people won’t agree with me. Bottom line for me is, if you don’t feel comfortable with the freshness, quality, smell, taste or purity of CLO or FCLO it would probably be best to avoid it, no?
Here is a link to Masterjohn’s article: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2015/08/weighing-in-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil.html#more
D. Smith, I too came away from it thinking that he didn’t actually say anything definitive. However, in this instance, what he did was more beneficial to GPP than to Daniel. While acknowledging that her take on it COULD be accurate, it also gave GPP plausible deniability for EVERYTHING in the report, with the exception of the labeling issues. And he basically said all of the tests that she did were meaningless because they could mean this or they could mean that. And any future testing can be explained away in the same way referencing back to this article as the definitive scientific word on the subject. *sigh*
Got an email from Dave Wetzel today. It was a page and a half long. It said nothing substantive. Color me disappointed.
@ Steve: It seems as though no one wants to say anything substantive – except Dr. Daniel – and she’s being crucified for her words. As I mentioned before, my money is on Dr. Daniel.
The way I figure it, we’ve all gotten the complete song and dance routine from Sally Fallon and Dave Wetzel, and we got middle of the road, non-meaningful stuff from both Chris Kresser and Chris Masterjohn.
Up to now, other than the great work from David Gumpert here at his blog, I feel as though we’ve all been masterfully hoodwinked. I keep hoping for something more meaningful from these people, but so far have been highly disappointed.
I think the whole report by Dr. Kaayla is flawed from the get go. She tests for things she doesn’t expect to find in fermented cod liver oil, which raises the question as to why it was tested for to begin with. She set out with the aim of proving that fermented cod liver oil was rancid, and so interpreted her results in a bias manner to support her idea. Her wild and unfounded claims that the product probably is a cheap import from China instantly discredit her ability to accurately analysis data scientifically.
She is clutching at straws because her data didn’t come out the way she wanted. Yes, there are a few concerns raised by her report (quinone count for one), but I am not concerned. Had this been a more accurate report, perhaps I would have been, but with a small sample size, and dubious lab testing, I’m not worried.
I’ve done a full analysis of her report here, and would love to hear your thought http://www.thehealthcloud.co.uk/green-pastures-rancid-report-analysis/
Oh, I agree that the report was, uh, well inflammatory, and I guess, sensationalized. I would however like to point out that one thing that has come out of this is the understanding that the tests that GPP has been having performed and been providing as proof for years that their product is not rancid, are “not good tests for rancidity.” Um, if this is what they do and they are talking to experts all of the time, shouldn’t they have known that? And if they did, why keep presenting it as if it was meaningful information.
How Dr. Daniel did this was not pretty. The WAPF response to this situation is probably a good indication of WHY she did it this way, but her analysis could have been more professional and less like info-marketing style. But I’m glad she did it, all the same.
@ Steve Tallent: My money is still on Dr. Daniel, even though you still seem to be straddling the fence. I think she chose to expose her information in the way she thought best, whatever her reasons. I have great respect for her and think she will be vindicated in this deal when all the cards are played out. Otherwise, I can’t for the life me figure out why the WAPF organization is obscuring, or trying to obscure, pertinent information from the very people who use these products, whether through WAPF recommendations or simply finding the information online through an independent search. It simply doesn’t make sense. WAPF is supposed to be promoting healthy lifestyles, but probably should not be promoting products, as Augie stated above. It’s a very slippery slope.
I also think WAPF would have done itself a big favor if they had simply said they were willing to examine Kaayla’s findings more closely and would be coming out with a report, complete with FACTS, at a later date and that in the meantime people could either take the FCLO or not, making that a personal decision, not a recommended decision on their part. Simply siding with GP doesn’t do much for my confidence in this organization, to be honest.
WAPF definitely keep shooting themselves in the foot over this. You have to think though that they are not stupid. The fact that they keep doing it has to be significant. As you say, it would be easy enough to say, “we have just read this shocking report. We will be thoroughly investigating.” But they didn’t do that. Why? To protect Dave Wetzel’s business. Why? I don’t have a clue. They are sacrificing their credibility and reputation in order to protect GPP. Are chapter leaders allowed to express concerns online about WAPF, it’s leader and it’s board? Sure. Are they allowed to express concerns about GPP? Nope. Are chapter members allowed to criticize Sally Fallon Morrel in a chapter meeting? Yeppers. Are they allowed to discuss the GPP situation. No. They are not trying to protect WAPF or it’s reputation. They are going all out to protect and defend Green Pasture. Strange, no?
I can’t help but think if GPP ever finds a really good oils guy that convinces them that their product is rancid, that they won’t do anything but modify their process for creating the product under the direction of this person – shorter ferment times, better filtering, climate control, and things like that. Will they ever say that the product that they sold for almost 10 years was potentially harmful, well no they won’t. If they did, they would open themselves up to a lawsuit. More likely, they would point at new, exhaustive test results, and show how clean it is, how fresh it is, and all of that jazz, and try to pass it off that their products were always that way. And a whistle blower like Dr. Daniel would no longer be able to find any evidences of rancidity.
I don’t know if Dr. Daniel will ever be conclusively proven right. I do know that WAPF and GPP are acting very guilty and that the draconian measures being taken by Sally to quell all negativity in the ranks regarding FCLO is very disturbing.
There are two communication methods to use to convince someone of something: rhetoric (emotion) and dialectic (logic); and not everyone is able to be convinced by dialectic.
Dr. Daniel used rhetoric and dialectic in service of convincing people of certain facts. Her opponents complain that she used rhetoric and therefor must be wrong. But thats just so much butt hurt, ‘your a bad person for using such effective arguments and therefor are wrong’.
Her opponents have mainly used rhetorical arguments, mainly fallacies and deceptive arguments, which doesn’t exactly help their case to someone who looks at things logically to discern the truth.
Truth be told, I gave up cod liver oil and butter oil years earlier because:
A. I was taking 2 tablespoonfuls of it and my vitamin D levels were still barely clawing their way up from the basement, after over a year.
B. When I did the Mediator Release Test for food sensitivity, I came out as sensitive to Cod. I had my husband, and my daughter do the test after me, and they also came out as sensitive to Cod. And all of us proved to be low in Vitamin D. We were using the Blue Ice CLO, and butter oil, from Green Pastures.
C. On at least two occasions, I have asked fitness clients of mine to have their D levels tested although they were religious about taking CLO and butter oil. They turned out to be dismally low in vitamin D despite it all.
Since then, we have gone on to try two other methods of raising our D levels, and have reached ideal levels by 3 months.
May whatever cod you believe in have mercy on your sole.
Its been months now since this complex controversy first reared its ugly head. I haven’t had time to examine all the back and forth as carefully as I’d like. Is there anyone on here who has carefully read all of Kayla’s complaint, and all of Dave Wetzels detailed rebuttal and who doesn’t have an axe to grind but who feels that they can truly make an honest assessment of the quality of Green Pasture’s product vs the one that Kayla Daniel is promoting now? Is there anyone on here who has tried BOTH products long enough to have an objective view of BOTH after also having carefully read both sides of the argument?
I have a very large email distribution list of thousands of health oriented people world wide, and they all listen to me because its a double opt in list. Many of the people on this list are WAPF Chapter leaders because I am one, and I’ve been published in the Wise Traditions Journal. I am not going to say whether or not I have used Dave Wetzels product, or the one that Kayla Daniels is now backing instead, but I will say that all I really CARE about here is THE TRUTH, whatever that is.
So, can someone who has rigorously checked out BOTH cod liver oil products and who has carefully READ Kayla Daniel’s complaint AND Dave Wetzels detailed rebuttal please comment? Is this strictly an evil attack by Kayla Daniel’s, a coup against WAPF in which Sally has been wrongfully loyal to Dave, or was Kayla’s attack nothing but a financially motivated junk science scam being attempted by a scientist who is good at scamming lay people? Is Kayla a cool and honest person, or a despicable conniving divisive sleazebag?
@ John Hammell: What brand is Kaayla recommending? I have been unable to locate any way to stay in touch with what’s going on in regard to the CLO conflict, as evidently there is no forum set up for their new group – so how are people following this? I am disappointed in the way this hasn’t been handled . . . I thought David would be posting information on where people are gathering to talk about this, but it must be facebook or twitter or whatever, and I don’t participate at those sites.
People keep posting that same old link and telling me it’s their new web site, but it’s just the same page as what was first shown when they had the conference back in November of 2015. I can find no blogs or forums with Dr. Daniels at the helm. Very disappointing. There have been no new posts to her naughty nutritionist site for ages. And it’s no good trying to ask a question there. It’s like talking into the wind.
D and John Hammell, I don’t think Kaayla is recommending any particular cod liver oil. She gave a lengthy presentation on her findings at the P3 conference in November, and I didn’t hear any recommendations there. Also, absolutely no evidence she profited from her report or the controversy it triggered. I think the reason you aren’t seeing further discussion is there’s not a lot more to discuss. She issued her findings as widely as she could, WAPF threw her out, and people who were concerned enough discontinued their usage of the Green Pastures FCLO. Others who weren’t concerned continue to use it and feed it to their children. Dave Wetzel, to my knowledge, never issued any kind of warning about possible side effects. The WAPF continues to highly recommend FCLO. No state or federal agency has become involved in trying to limit FCLO availability.
@ David: I thought there was going to be a web site set up so people could ask nutritional questions, etc., sorta like a forum, when the “new” organization was founded. I even asked a question about it over at Kaayla’s blog but never got an answer to the question.
It would be nice if there was a site similar to WAPF wherein there would be articles to read, recipes, etc. I guess I thought that was the whole point, but not just to talk about FCLO, to talk about all kinds of nutrition issues from someone who knows, not just some young mom who blogs about nutrition by copying and pasting links from “research” pages, etc., to earn a few bucks.
Even if she would keep up her Naughty Nutritionist site it would be helpful, but there has been nothing new there in a blue moon.
I’m not sure what that web site you describe was going to be. The Paleo-Primal-Price Foundation is going to update its web site one of these days as part of a larger ongoing plan of events and memberships.
Groan! That was BAD Wade! In fact, it was downright PUTRID, but isn’t that what makes a pun GOOD? Please see my additional comment if the moderator allows it to be posted
It’s very easy to discredit a good company by starting rumours such as these. W Price foundation will have every right to sue for damages after all is said and done. This doctor also will give free appoint initially to those ‘harmed’ by the oil.? Harmed how exactly? Smells fishy to me….dirty games.
You have a lot of reading to do, apparently, before making such wild accusations.
I, for one, still refer to WAPF for lots of my nutritional information, but they’re not right about the issue with CLO. Since nothing has been done about the whole CLO issue, one can only assume the gubmint agencies have bigger fish to fry (like picking on raw milk producers).