I’ve been harping on the likelyabuse of Mark Nolt’s rights via execution of a search warrant at his Pennsylvania dairy last Friday when he was hauled off to court—the theft of a book, and other equipment possibly unrelated to the search warrant. I’ll come back to that in a bit.
But lurking in the background is another issue I have refrained from writing about. It’s one that’s come up repeatedly for me in speaking with producers of raw milk around the country: the black market in raw milk. Now that the New York Daily News is writing about it, I feel more comfortable discussing it. Indeed, I expect the subject to attract even more widespread attention very shortly from at least one other major media publication.
It seems that a good chunk of Mark Nolt’s raw dairy products have been winding up in Brooklyn. Now those customers are in a tizzy–one won’t be able to make her cream puffs–because Mark’s production has been interrupted.
I would venture that the market in unregulated raw milk is possibly as large as that in regulated distribution and sales. I’ve heard it spoken about or seen it at work in states around the country—Florida, Massachusetts, Michigan, California, Washington, and, of course, possibly the largest outlet for black market raw milk products: the New York metropolitan area. A number of individuals commenting on this blog have referred to it as well, usually in hushed or clipped tones.
I’ve refrained from writing about it because I haven’t wanted to get raw-milk dairies into more trouble than many of them already face. I know that state agriculture officials around the country read this blog—I’d like to think it’s because they want to educate themselves, but I know that it’s more often because they’re looking for intelligence in their monitoring of the hundreds of small dairies that brave the forces of repression to produce their milk.
I’ve always assumed that one day the story would come out, but I didn’t want to be the one that broke it, and thereby interfered with the marginal livelihoods of small dairies, as well as possibly launching a nation-wide crackdown on raw milk, and thereby interrupting the supplies that so many individuals depend on. But now that another publication, with a more distant view of the entire situation, has done it for me, well, it’s relieved at least some of the pressure I felt.
I also feel that once this black-market story begins to come out, it could act as a positive force. The larger mass of consumers than read this blog are more likely to be outraged by some upset in their personal lives than in the abridgment of the rights of one or another dairy farmer. Rightly or wrongly, that’s the reality of life in America today.
But if this ripple effect from Mark’s arrest Friday does lead to outrage, there is a near-term way to express it: come to his trial at 9:30 Monday morning. The courthouse is at 229 Mill St. in Mt. Holly Springs, which is about 18 miles southwest of Harrisburg.
Bob Hayles, the owner of a Georgia goat dairy, stated in his comment on my previous posting that he intends to drive up. He told me further yesterday that he’s going to be selling raw goat’s milk outside the courthouse, and would like to have lots of company from other raw milk producers doing the same thing. He also said he’s going to try to obtain an arrest warrant for Bill Chirdon, the PDA milk safety official who executed the search warrant on Mark Nolt’s dairy, for theft. It could be an interesting time.
For years I thought I was breaking the law by selling food directly to friends.I never took the time to read the section of the law in my state that allegedly makes this local free market illegal. Was it Yogi Berra that said "It’s amazing what you can see ,when you look."?
I propose that we stop acting and talking as if this activity is illegal.The "laws" that the authorities are fooling us with only make this trade among friends illegal as long as we go along with their assertion of authority.All we need to do is say "show me the law".Then we need to examine whatever law they point to and read it,understand the legal definition of every word,and decide for ourselves what it really says.I assure you that it does not and cannot make a local free market subject to their regulations without the expressed or implied consent of those involved in that market.
The regulators only get their authority from the actual written law or from our passive acceptance of their assertion of authority.
Its long passed the time when we should have questioned their claims of authority.Their claims have expanded way beyond any actual written law.Remember,if they point to an "act" and refer to it as law,remind them that they need your consent in order for the "act" to have the force of law over you.
In the video that henwhisperer posted,Bill Chirdon repeats again that Mark has violated a law.He is misleading us.It is an ACT not a Law that pretends to "require" a permit.An ACT is only an offer that may be accepted voluntarily.Cherdon says that he will give back Mark’s equiptment if he applies(read begs) for a permit.
Mr. Cherdon,you are clearly stepping beyond the authority that the law allows.You are violating your oath of office and are exposing yourself ,personally,to a claim for the damage you have caused.
http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Constitution.html
CONSTITUTION
OF THE
COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA
WE, the people of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
Article 1
DECLARATION OF RIGHTS
That the general, great and essential principles of liberty and free government may be recognized and unalterably established, WE DECLARE THAT –
Inherent Rights of Mankind
Section 1.
All men are born equally free and independent, and have certain inherent and indefeasible rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring, possessing and protecting property and reputation, and of pursuing their own happiness.
Political Powers
Section 2.
All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their peace, safety and happiness. For the advancement of these ends they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish their government in such manner as they may think proper.
All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their peace, safety and happiness."
How can anyone be required to beg permission from an agent of the government in order to take part in any common everyday activity among themselves?
Those that share the wealth have created a "white market"…and whether above board or below, the key is that the health giving properties of raw milk are being spread far and wide.
This ‘white market’ is bigger and stronger than anyone can imagine.
Black markets are for crooks…white markets are for heroes.
That’s all…no heroes.
Bob Hayles
There are plenty of heroes out here. Undaunted by governmental persecution, willing to take the risk and sacrifice their well being so their customers may be healed.sounds heroic to me. Bold action doesnt need to be loud and in your face (although when it is, it cant be missed). Its courage that makes a hero.not a cape (or an audience).
Personally, I think you need to quit with the simple farmer crap. It plays into the society view that all farmers are dumb hicks who till the earth because they dont have the smarts to do anything else. Its pervasive enough without having those who choose to farm supporting it. Farming, the natural way, is a high calling, and those that do it should be lauded not simpletoned. Sure, its easier for country folk to farm, and yes one must question the intelligence of marrying a herd for two times 365, but many raw milk farmers I know are taking agriculture, and health, to new heights. Its not a job for Clem, Jim Bob or Cleetus. Perpetuation of that stereotype is counterproductive.
Heroes do a great job of putting their fear in a proper place. Kind of like what youll need to do next Monday on those courthouse steps. (and please spare us all the I aint skeered stuff.choosing to break law isnt revolutionary.flaunting it in public, and rubbing the authorities faces in it, is a different story)
Courageous action is not the mark of a common man (or woman).
Your description of Bob…."Personally, I think you need to quit with the simple farmer crap. It plays into the society view that all farmers are dumb hicks who till the earth because they dont have the smarts to do anything else."
…is counter-productive. The only common ground discovered here is that small farmers might be capable and willing to provide high quality and safe locally produced foods almost independent of government (thereby setting them apart from big "agri").
Otherwise, Darth must agree completely with this: "Raw milk..should not be consumed by anyone" Link to full article:
http://www.campylobacterblog.com/2008/05/articles/campylobacter-watch/raw-milkshould-not-be-consumed-by-anyone-at-anytime-for-any-reason/
C2
First, there is a small change in my plans for Monday.
It has been pointed out to me that if I bring raw goat’s milk to PA from GA to sell it, I will be giving Chirdon and the PDA an "out", in that they will be able to dump me on the FDA for violating laws regulating raw milk in interstate commerce, and this battle needs to be confined to the PDA for now.
So, I won’t be bringing raw milk from my farm.
My next thought was to stop at a PA farm and buy some raw milk and sell it by the cup Monday, but then I realized that would not fit with what we want, the right to engage in direct producer to consumer commerce, as I would not be the producer, but a middleman.
I finally came up with a way to sell milk without violating FDA rules or being a middleman, but I need you folk’s help.
I need to buy or lease a goat for a day in PA.
I will milk that goat in front of the courthouse, and I will then sell that raw milk by the cup…and make absolutely sure that the PDA knows I am selling raw milk without their precious permit.
Now, you folks that read this in PA…find me a healthy dairy goat I can lease for a day. I’m bringing my milk pail, filter, cooler, and cups, but I have no idea where to find a goat, so someone please let me know of a farmer I can lease one from.
Next, I want to address milkfarmer’s contention that "simple farmer" serves to confirm a hick, rube steriotype.
No, milkfarmer, it doesn’t, at least not to people whose opinion I value.
As examples, not that I would compare myself to these people, Ghandi wasa simple man, Mother Teresa was a simple woman, and Jeses himsilf was a simple man. Simple does not equate to simpleton, and for those who are such simpletons that they believe it does…well, they are not on the list of folks whose opinion of me I care about.
Lastly, there is the last part of Darth’s post:
"Otherwise, Darth must agree completely with this: "Raw milk..should not be consumed by anyone" Link to full article:
http://www.campylobacterblog.com/2008/05/articles/campylobacter-watch/ra
A copy of the linked article, in part, says, "
Some official comments in news are worth nothing. Stephen J. Hedges writing in last Friday’s Chicago Tribune quotes John Sheehan, director of the U.S. Food & Drug Administration’s Office of Plant and Dairy Foods on raw milk.
Here’s what he said: "Raw milk is inherently dangerous, and it should not be consumed by anyone at any time for any reason. There is absolutely nothing to the claims that it is magical, mystical elixir that cures all."
The Tribune went on to report this: "Health officials argue that raw milk can carry dangerous pathogens, such as E. coli, listeria, salmonella and campylobacter–bugs that are killed by pasteurization." Go to the rest of the story by clicking on this headline: "Raw milk trend concerns many: some love it, but safety isn’t certain." "
Darth, I cannot believe that you, a woman of science, would use an article written by someone with an agenda, as "evidence", or that you would ignore the obvious agenda promoting in the article.
""Health officials argue that raw milk can carry dangerous pathogens, such as E. coli, listeria, salmonella and campylobacter–bugs that are killed by pasteurization."
Let’s take just one disease warned against…listeria.
According to the CDC, the last listeria death in the US involving raw milk was in the early 70’s, but listeria in pastuerized milk killed three people in one outbreak in Mass LAST YEAR.
What does that say we need to be protected from?
I also had to laugh atthe pastline, ""Raw milk trend concerns many: some love it, but safety isn’t certain."
Exactly what IS certain, besides death and taxes? Please…name me ONE food on the nanny state’s approved food list that is CERTAIN to be safe…just one.
Deli meat? Hotdogs? Sushi? How about pastuerized milk…is it CERTAIN to be safe?
It’s about rights Darth…constitutionally protected rights.
Bob Hayles
What does everyone think about this? I feel suspiciously hopeful…
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi
Last year the Hawthorne Valley Farm in Ghent, N.Y., offered a buyers club program to its raw milk customers in the hopes of giving a bigger boost to a steadily growing market. It was designed to encourage those customers in New York and beyond to order in bulk but send only one representative a week to pick up the order.
When the New York State Department Public Interestand Markets caught wind of it, however, it asked Hawthorne to end the program and the farm complied. Still, Abe Madey, the farms dairy manager and cheesemaker, says business is steady. About 100 regular customers, many of whom drive two hours from New York City, purchase up to 7,500 gallons annually of raw milk worth about $45,000 to the farm, he said.
The milk club that Mr. Milgrom-Elcott belongs to, and others like it, is far more problematic, according to Jessica A. Chittenden, a spokeswoman for the Agriculture and Markets department. She says the 41 milk inspectors charged with the monthly testing of New Yorks 5,000 dairy farms had not yet turned their attention to the clandestine dropoffs.
It is under review, said Ms. Chittenden, adding that the department cited five of the raw milk permit holders for violations in the past year. Our utmost concern is for public health. We are trying to insure that the safest products are out there.
Loud, public, in your face, responses to injustice can be effective. Its debatable whether they are moreso than quiet and covert efforts to right the wrong. Usually it takes a combination of both. Yes Mr Hale got all the pub, but if it werent for the thousands, unnamed in the textbooks, who supported his position and were willing to fight, he would have surely been hanged. All revolutions need their stars, but rarely are they enough alone to initiate meaningful change. The head can think it, but if the body doesnt act, its just a thought, and verbalization without action, is just words.
Guess Ghandi and Mo T never did anything bold. Complex individuals do not have a monopoly on heroic acts. Good luck milking that goat Monday Bob, I hope the exposure helps.
The opinion that everyone has an fundamental right to choose to drink it raw is the only one that really matters.
"Yes Mr Hale got all the pub, but if it werent for the thousands, unnamed in the textbooks, who supported his position and were willing to fight, he would have surely been hanged."
Nathan Hale WAS hanged, on September 22, 1776, at the age of 21, immediately before the Battle of Long Island.
Also, I didn’t say that Ghandi and Mo T did simple things. I said they were simple people. Quite often simple people do great things.
Bob Hayles
In order to remove the economic stronghold that industrial England had over India (Indian-grown cotton fiber was processed and woven in English mills then sold back to Indians by English companies – sound familiar?), he encouraged Indians to stop buying English processed cotton cloth, and instead, for everyone, rich and poor alike, to take up spinning Indian cotton fiber into threads (with small charkha spinning wheels in a box) and reviving home cloth weaving. He promoted the wearing of simple, functional clothes with the Indian-created cloth instead of English industrial clothing. With economic independence, political independence can follow.
I think there are interesting parallels to today’s situation, not just with food, but with many global commodities.
Bob, you might have someone check the city’s ordinances also, just to be sure they can’t kick your goat out of town.
Things just shouldn’t be so complicated.
Gwen
A few words to explain my last post
Darth, I cannot believe that you, a woman of science, would use an article written by someone with an agenda, as "evidence", or that you would ignore the obvious agenda promoting in the article.
Okay, I chose an extreme article for 2 reasons: 1) it reflected my previous point of view before crossing over to the good side LOL and 2) the blog was getting boring with the religious-like approach to this issue again.
""Health officials argue that raw milk can carry dangerous pathogens, such as E. coli, listeria, salmonella and campylobacter–bugs that are killed by pasteurization."
Weve been there, done thatof course, failures in pasteurization have lead to illnesses and deaths. Numerous examples of food poisoning exist for almost every food industry’s product (except maybe Spam and donuts, but who wants to eat those, yuck!). I dont think that the mistakes of others change the fact that the raw milk producers must do their best to keep their product safe.
Exactly what IS certain, besides death and taxes? Please…name me ONE food on the nanny state’s approved food list that is CERTAIN to be safe…just one.
I cant name a single one (except spam as stated above). And, each producer should be accountable to the people they made sick and do better.
It’s about rights Darth…constitutionally protected rights.
Bob, you have changed my point of view, for good or bad. Raw milk should be regulated at the local level. Direct sales should be allowed with minimal to no middlemen/women. I know this leaves out people like the mother from San Diego that doesnt have a local source. Oh well, life isnt fair. If a problem occurs, like a rogue farmer selling dirty milk from sick cows, (over-simplified example), then the local government (and maybe the local farming community) steps forward and takes action to remove the bad guy. If a tragedy happens with an otherwise great farmer (like you, Im making an assumption), then everyone steps back and figures out what went wrong and how to prevent it in the future…I am assuming (big assumption and change in my paradigm)that raw milk sold locally can be made safe. As a scientist, I think that might be possible, not sure.
So, Darth remains adamant that large scale production and marketing of raw milk is bad. We do not entirely agree about that point, but I would (will) support your right to direct sales of raw milk combined with education of your customers on a local level (progress in our discussion?).
Will you take pictures of the goat in Pennsylvania? If so, I hope David G. will post one on this site. Strange to say, but good luck with your effort!
C2
Bob Hayles
P.S. More later today…major change in plans for trip to PA…will update y’all in a while.
I have been following this blog for quite some time. The core issue of selling raw milk legally–how should it be done? Small scale or large scale? I agree with C2, large scale is a making for disaster. Raw milk should not be sold in stores.
Education for the small farmer and his/her customers is what is utmost important. The Washington Dee Creek Farm Ecoli 0157:H7 incident shows what can happen when a new farmer is not savvy to sanitation protocol. Children suffer.
The people behind the raw milk revolution need to be honest when there is an outbreak. Instead of denying it, they need to address the problem so it doesnt happen again. Positive energy should be focused in the direction of milk safety.
Pathogen contamination in raw milk can happen. Admitting this fact does not make the argument that raw milk is dangerous. All it means is that utmost caution is paramount. Down playing this fact is a disservice to all.
gumpert has given us a forum and led us with real fairness. we can only thank him by being as disinterested as he, even as we are VERY interested. fairness instead of hyperbole. getting to the truth of the matter, which can only benefit all concerned.
Total truthfulness is admirable and is what I would hope everyone did. If I screw up, I need to fix it, accept the consequences, and do my best to do better. I would hope that I, along with other raw milk producers, would have this attitude and act in this manner…BUT…
When asking for total openness and honesty, please be aware of the legal environment that I and everyone else in business in this country operate in.
We are a litiguouis society. Folks sue at the drop of a hat, for the stupidest of reasons.
Recently a piece of scum lawyer sued a dry cleaner for several millions of dollars because they screwed up a pair of $25 pants. Lawyers know that most folks, from a homeowner with a homeowner’s insurance policy to General Motors with a huge amount of liability coverage, are well covered by an insurance company that will settile out of court rather than take a chance on a big judgement.
Unfortunately, thanks to the professional pond scum known as lawyers (sorry Pete, Gary, and Steve…I’m talking generalities, not you guys), it is difficult, bordering on impossible, to say, "I’m sorry. I did the best I knew how, but I messed up. Let’s all learn from this and everyone will be able to do better." To do this is little different than saying, "Come get me. Take everything I have. I made an honest mistake, but you folks can destroy me anyway, despite my simply being human."
Bob Hayles
Thornberry Village Homestead
Jasper, GA
706.692.7004
Thornberry Village Homestead…a small goat dairy, owned by God, managed by Bob and Tyler.
Why shouldn’t it be sold in stores? Everyone suffers when sanitation is neglected in any environment.
"The people behind the raw milk revolution need to be honest when there is an outbreak. Instead of denying it, they need to address the problem so it doesnt happen again."
Ditto for the govt entities regarding the numerous food contaminations.
I don’t recall reading on this blog of anyone playing down or denying the potential for "bad" pathogens in any dairy products or any other foods. People should be educated on all foods they consume, where they come from, how they are produced, what they are fed, etc.
Regarding your comment
"I don’t recall reading on this blog of anyone playing down or denying the potential for "bad" pathogens in any dairy products or any other foods."
I saw a new post on the Marler Blog describing, in part, another raw milk recall due to Listeria (link below). IMHO, the appropriate questions from the farmer, raw milk community, and the government should be: how was the product contaminated? what immediate and long term steps can be taken to prevent this from happening again? And, thank goodness we found the problem before anyone got sick.
But, based on past readings on this blog and others supportive of raw milk sales, I predict a majority reaction that denies the laboratory finding and/or accuses the regulators of harassment (and, yes, an overall dismissal of the food safety concerns). That is not unique at allthe big agri folks and their lawyers respond the same way almost every time they are linked to an outbreak/recall. But, the raw milk community is supposed to be different and presumably more innovative/enlightened about nutrition AND food safety, right?
http://www.marlerblog.com/2008/05/articles/case-news/ill-have-a-side-of-listeria-with-my-pennsylvania-raw-milk-and-new-york-salad/index.html
I’ll have a side of Listeria with my Pennsylvania Raw Milk and New York Salad
Posted on May 3, 2008 by Listeria Lawyer
Raw Milk Recall – Again
Consumers are also advised to discard tainted Raw Milk. Consumers who purchased raw milk from Green Acres Jersey Farm in Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, any time should discard it immediately due to the risk of Listeria monocytogenes contamination, Pennsylvania Agriculture officials said. Officials said during routine inspection of the dairy, a preliminary test showed the presence of Listeria bacteria in some raw milk samples.
Sadly, lysteria is just another tool used to squash raw milk farmers.
So, how is a farmer supposed to know what’s true and how to react to such situations?
I’m going to be a little snooty (sorry, but after years of graduate school followed by many years of laboratory experience…). I don’t know your educational/work backgrounds, but do you really feel qualified to compare the private lab testing methods with the state’s? I’ll stop there because I don’t want to offend anyone, which is inevitable when the raw milk discussion drifts into that grey area between science and religion.
C2 (or Darth to some)
Does this mean I don’t think there are any risks with raw milk? Absolutely not anymore than I think there are risks associated with any foods. I just want the truth for my sake and my farmer so that he can continue to produce a wholesome healthy product. As an educated consumer, I am "qualified" to make my decisions based on the facts.
I’d trust a private lab over a gubermint lab every time. The gubermint labs screw up, lie, put out false data because it serves the purposes of the agency. Did you read Mad Sheep? Proves the point.
Glad to hear that you called the lab for more information. To borrow an expression used a lot here, Know your Lab. Keep this in mind tooA microbiologist would rather use another microbiologists toothbrush than use their method. ~B.J. Bolton
And, in keeping with a clich theme, heres a quote about statistics (applies to outbreak data): Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say. ~William W. Watt
I bet you know this already, but there are major differences from doctor-to-doctor, county-to-county, state-to-state, etc. in diagnosing and reporting Listeria (or any other food poisoning) in people. For one of many explanations for why we miss many more illnesses than we find, see this link:
More Stool Cultures Needed to Catch More Food Poisoning Cases
http://www.foodpoisonblog.com/2008/05/articles/food-poisoning-watch/more-stool-cultures-needed-to-catch-more-food-poisoning-cases/
Regarding Listeria, CDC estimates 2500 cases annually in the United States. Center for Science in the Public Interest is one source for outbreak information.
CSPI Outbreak Alert database
Dairy outbreaks:
http://www.cspinet.org/foodsafety/outbreak/outbreaks.php?column=subgroup&colval=Milk&column1=Dairy
Listeria (all foods)
http://www.cspinet.org/foodsafety/outbreak/outbreaks.php?column=pathogen&colval=Listeria%20monocytogenes
Something stands out looking at the Listeria table: it doesn’t say "small dumb goat farmer" as the source of any outbreak. These and some very large outbreaks in the past have been linked to queso fresco. What are your thoughts about unpasteurized, illegal queso fresco (Mexican-style soft cheese also referred to as bathtub cheese in the public health world)? Say something more than know your farmer isnt this product giving raw dairy a bad name, not to mention some social issues (for example, exploiting individuals, often illegal immigrants, that sell the illegal product door-to-door)?
Henwhisperer: I have worked in a government lab for many years and have never intentionally put out false data; errors sometimes happen, but we always admitt to and correct the mistake (not perfect). I have seen some examples of labs (private more often than government) distribute false or misleading information. With private entities, the motivation is usually money. In the government examples, it was most often laziness, or rarely an individual trying to get power/attention. I really doubt there is a giant conspiracy in any state to alter lab results just because the sample came from a raw mik dairy.
C2, aren’t these questions asked whenever there is a contamination with ANY product? I dont see any point in singling out raw dairy. These questions would be expected with any product and solutions given and/or all involved working as a team to resolve issues in reference to any product.
Consuming raw dairy is a choice, just as eating McDonalds burgers, or KFC, or hotdogs, if you choose to eat them, good for you. Listeria? Isn’t that more prevalent in lunch meats,and hotdogs than raw dairy? Too bad there isn’t any up-roar to make those illegal.
The "bathtub" cheese speaks volumes with the name alone.
"(for example, exploiting individuals, often illegal immigrants, that sell the illegal product door-to-door)? "
If someone is going door-to-door and selling things, how is that exploiting them?
About 10 or so years ago, in the Houston area, there was an outbreak of hepatitis from imported strawberries (from either Mexico or Central America).
Illegal cheese (key word there)…..
Hmmm perhaps we Americans should buy American raised foods. What a concept.
I think we agree on a number of points, especially your first one: "aren’t these questions asked whenever there is a contamination with ANY product?" There might be some disagreement with other posters, especially concerning the lab test results.
"Too bad there isn’t any up-roar to make those illegal."
Well, since I crossed over part way to the "good"side, and am not advocating that all raw milk products should be illegal, I would have to say that people have a right to eat hot dogs and McD’s too (but, if they have a positive Listeria test–same deal–recall, press release, etc.).
"If someone is going door-to-door and selling things, how is that exploiting them?"
That was an FYI–those raw cheese outbreaks are lumped together with the much less frequent outbreaks from small (direct sales) of raw dairy products. The "bathtub cheese" issue is complicated and perhaps has been covered here before (?), I haven’t been following this blog for very long. Briefly, some of these illegal operations are large with multiple middle men–the poor guy going door-to-door is just a pawn (usually trying to put food on the table), and has no idea about who or where the product came from. Again, just noting that the statistics are lumped together in one category: unpasteurized dairy product.
Thanks for engaging in some respectful dialogue about the issues.
C2
I couldn’t disagree more. Please keep to the raw milk issue and seriously think about the following situation. We have what 8 to 10 farms (I am generalizing as I don’t know the exact number) testing positive for listeria in a fairly short amount of time. Let’s guess that maybe 100 people from each farm consumed raw milk during the supposed contamination. So, 800 to 1000 customers (with the black market my guess is these numbers are much higher) with not one confirmed case of listeria from any of the accused farms. Now here’s the clincher for me. My farmer was so frightened he had possibly sickened someone he worked frantically cleaning his already immaculate barn all while being lectured by his inspector that "this is why we don’t want farms selling raw milk." The states lab took 14 days to incubate their sample while my farmers lab took 3 days. If you were truly concerned about food safety which method would you choose? Not one inspector can tell me why this antiquated method is still used.
"For those that know, are there different tests more appropriate to find listeria m. in pasteurized milk than in raw milk?"
From a regulatory standpoint, no. One size fits all. That should be fixed on many levels beyond dairy products…easier said than done.
"And by the way, are there any reports of anyone getting sick from all these supposed positive listeria M. tests???"
Isn’t the point of testing product to prevent illnesses? Although I do not think any industry can "test themselves out of the problem," outbreaks are the least desirable way to realize a product has a problem (especially since detection usually depends on finding very sick people–or deaths)–your sad Massachusetts example.
"The states lab took 14 days to incubate their sample while my farmers lab took 3 days." If you were truly concerned about food safety which method would you choose? Not one inspector can tell me why this antiquated method is still used."
I agree. How can government pour millions of dollars into national laboratories to develop fancy anthrax tests, and still be unable to confirm a common foodborne pathogen in less than 2 weeks? Some of the problem is technology (why can’t we find a vaccine/cure for HIV or malaria? Just not there yet…). The private labs are not there yet either. When I retire, I could charm a raw milk farmer with Darth’s sweet personality, credentials, big words, and a 24 hour test that means nothing–would you know the difference while I take your money? I do not mean to slam all private labs, but beware and consider the limits of technology.
C2
The consumption of raw dairy is not going to go away. Since the govt is so concerned with contamination, why don’t they teach good sanitation? Why don’t they teach health and safety to the public and farmers to ensure the safety of the raw dairy? If raw milk was so dangerous,there’d be a lot of dead people who consumed it. If the govt’s priority is to protect the "people" then inform/teach the farmers and the public good sanitation,etc. Seems a simple solution.
http://www.foodprotection.org/memberInterest/Milk%20Pasteurization%20Paper.pdf <~~ Too bad the 3 who died from the listeria weren’t assured it was safe.
http://www.dairyfarmingtoday.org/NR/rdonlyres/2E37A9B5-19FD-4C79-9F41-48FA7FC8ECAF/0/RawMilkFactSheet.pdf <~~In @7 yrs 1007 people were ill from supposed raw dairy. That’s @143 people a year, far below the huge amounts who are poisoned from processed/pasturized foods..
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5215a4.htm And "During 2002, a total of 16,580 laboratory-diagnosed cases"
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Science/Micro_Testing_RTE/index.asp
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkwXHkx5IlS4AGN5XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZDUwNW9wBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNwRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0RGUjVfMTA2/SIG=12040hcbu/EXP=1210049863/**http%3a//www.foodsafety.gov/~dms/forcgpro.html <~~outbreak and response
http://www.kdheks.gov/epi/download/kansas_foodborne_illness_manual.pdf
This needs to be addressed at the local level…a one-on-one interaction between an individual from government and the producer.The state/fed people are pretty misguided…
p.s. I have little hope for the proposed HACCP program in California (won’t go into details). That producer lied so much it motivated me to write on this blog.
Please do elaborate. Are you referring to the person(s) who wrote the HACCP program? Or are you referring to Mark McAfee? Or someone else?
I’ve no doubt that all parties have lied, distorted the truth, deliberately mislead at some point. But then, one persons truth is anothers lie.
http://jds.fass.org/cgi/content/full/89/7/2451
248 dairy producers in Pa, it does not say what the cows consumed nor the environment in which they live or the over-all health of the bovines;all of which are big factors for outcomes. At least 42.3% consumed raw dairy, it did not specify if any had gotten ill from the raw dairy. If the whole picture isn’t looked at, this survey could be used in a misleading manner.