As long as the subject of intolerance of minorities has come up, with the confluence of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s birthday and the inauguration of Barack Obama as president, it’s a good time to address intolerance with regard to comments following my Jan. 14 post about Sharon Palmer.
There has been an unpleasant exchange going on, primarily between Concerned Person, Observer, and Hugh Betcha, along with a few others. What makes it unpleasant isn’t that there is sharp disagreement—that’s fine, since animated intense discussion has been one of the hallmarks of this blog. What makes it unpleasant is that the disagreements have turned personal. And when disagreements turn personal, they invariably turn ugly.
When they turn ugly, they descend into name calling, the usual favorite being “troll.” I know “troll” is used a lot on the Internet, but as far as I’m concerned, it’s a pejorative, much like those used for various ethnic and religious groups. It says another person is so different as to not deserve respect—in other words, it de-humanizes others, making additional slanders ever easier to allow.
The irony of all this is that the reason the discussions turned ugly have nothing to do with personal difficulties among the participants…just the opposite. The problem, from what I can see, is that some individuals believe so strongly in their own viewpoints, that they have lost sight of the reality that there are other serious perspectives on the same subject.
So while I feel that producers of raw milk are often treated unfairly by the authorities, I can respect Concerned Person’s argument that the raw milk community is loathe to accept the reality that people do occasionally become ill from raw milk. I understand that we can go in all kinds of directions with those viewpoints, but pejoratives aren’t an appropriate direction. Similarly, I respect Observer’s efforts to find a middle ground on the issue of warnings and labels for raw milk, even if I become frustrated over the regulator community’s seeming unwillingness to take on such matters for serious discussion. (For an extremely articulate assessment of the nature of disagreements on these issues, take a look at Steve Bemis’ comment following my previous post about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.)
The reality is that none of us has a monopoly on the truth. I’ve even on occasion gotten so carried away on some of these issues that I’ve probably been less personally respectful than I might have been, in retrospect. I’ve come to realize we must always maintain a sense of respect for other individuals with different views of the issues that come up here, or else there really won’t be any hope of resolution.
There is no perfect food supply system….even pasteurization….the problem is that the raw milk community is expected to be perfect…and every little incident is blown out of proportion and used by officials to create fear, reduce freedoms and tilt the playing field even more towards the mega farms run by multinationals (or the milk cooking plants that are owned by the cooperatives).
Who can blame the raw milk community for there actions and reactions. They are the ones being persecuted…on a daily basis…for trying to INCREASE the general health of the population. No, an apology is not needed by the raw milk folks for there reaction….they have been treated most unfairly for years now (and it seems like the authorities are ramping up the propaganda even more, recently).
Big Dairy sees the threat…and their lie is being exposed….one raw milk drinker at a time. They see this and know this, and they have arranged their henchmen…the USDA, FDA and state ag departments to quelch this threat.
How can you have ANY respect for those who would lie, persecute small farmers and be totally intolerant of those who would choose the right to drink it raw. Respect is a two way street, and I see little for those who are married to their cows, 2x7x52 a year.
I say let see something from the other side that WARRANTS respect.
David, I would like to point out that consumers face a ten times greater risk of becoming ill from eating deli meat than they do chugging raw milk on a per serving basis. Where is the warning label on deli meat? Raw milk is the least likely culprit for food illness on a per serving basis!
Why the warning label on raw milk?
IMHO, Food safety has nothing to do with it.
The difference in risk depends on the specific pathogen. For example, a review of the outbreak statistics suggests that Listeria is more commonly a problem in ready-to-eat meats, "bathtub cheese," and post-pasteurization contamination compared with raw dairy products from licensed dairies or cow share arrangements. In contrast, a review of the occurrence of E. coli O157:H7 and campylobacter – including severe outcomes such as HUS – reveals a disproportionate number of illnesses linked to raw dairy from commercial/cow share distribution (on a per serving basis). Caveat: reliable data on the number of raw dairy consumers in this context is limited, but where the product is legal, it represents a tiny proportion of the dairy industry as a whole – suggesting the number of consumers is very small and the number of outbreaks and HUS cases should be virtually non-existant – but, this is not the reality.
I fear sounding like a broken record, but the fact is….raw dairy is viewed differently by public health. All the insults in the world are not likely to change that (quite the opposite). On the other hand, warnings/labels might provide a bridge that relieves some liability for TPTB and the farmers/producers, especially where commercial distribution in stores is allowed, or in the quest to change interstate shipment laws.
Raw dairy has NO reason to be viewed differently by ‘public health’ (unless of course you want testimony after testimony of the positive difference it’s actually making in peoples lives)….these are the ph officials that use ‘scientific evidence’ from confinement dairies feeding concentrates…and extrapolate their judgments to ‘all’ milk (lies and deceit to promote an agenda which has nothing to do with ‘health’). These are the officials who create incidences by screening ER patients, only interviewing the ones who fess to drinking it raw, to create the appearance they want to ‘publicize’, and the same ones who’ll try and buy a gallon for their ‘sick mother’ so the can shutdown a cowshare. Honorable, decent men…yeah, right!
You’re on the wrong side of the Truth here.
I suggest you take your fear mongering ‘broken record’ elsewhere…where it might be better received. Raw milk is safe….as safe as any food…when it is produced the proper way, in a proper environment, by people who care (and drink it themselves).
http://www.thecompletepatient.com/journal/2008/12/29/is-regulator-alerting-us-to-real-raw-milk-issues-or-excuses.html
1) The FDA Petition should be broadened to exempt sales OR OTHER DISTRIBUTION of raw milk and raw milk products, which sale or other distribution is legal in both the originating state and in the consuming state.
[Mark’s petition is modeled on Ron Paul’s original Resolution, which is still buried in the House Energy & Commerce Committee, and which should be broadened to free up interstate traffic founded in other legal arrangements (such as cow shares, which with all due respect Mark, are not "black market"). If, as I suspect, FDA at some level really would like to get out of regulating this tiny raw milk market, they would not really get out of the business if they implemented the Petition as it is presently drafted since the Petition bakes in a high level of both state and federal regulation; hopefully, FDA would at least approve the Petition for further comment, where these additional points can be raised.]
me~> Do you really believe the FDA wants to get out of regulating raw dairy? If that were true, wouldnt they work WITH the raw dairy farmers instead of against them?
2) There should be some kind of consistent identification of raw milk and raw milk products coupled with standard warning language, whether basic such as current restaurant-style warnings, or more elaborate such as current California warnings.
Me~> There are already warnings on the raw milk bottles, and I believe on the raw dairy cheeses too. What more is needed? Nothing is "perfectly" safe. If someone chooses to consume "sterile" food, that is their choice. They have no right to push their beliefs on anyone else.
3) Claims for health benefits may be made by any customer in the producer’s advertising or sales forum only if in the form of personal testimonials or peer-reviewed scientific papers; or by the producer in the producer’s advertising or sales forum only if in the form of a statistically accurate summary of unsolicited customer testimonials or peer-reviewed scientific papers.
Me~> Arent those studies done in Europe scientific studies? Dont they count?
3) Sales at retail (where the consumer by definition is remote from the producer) should be regulated under state law.
4) Transactions (whether sales, cow shares or otherwise depending on state law) direct from farmer to consumer whether on the farm or otherwise, or from farmers with herds smaller than a yearly-average [100] milking cows, should not be regulated other than by individual agreement.
[Model here for application to the feds, which should be ample precedent for a similar exemption of raw milk, is the federal Egg Products Inspection Act (Pub. L. 91-597, 84 Stat.1620 et seq.) which exempts eggs direct farm-to-consumer or any sales from flocks of less than 3000 birds. At the state level, some states permit sales to various degrees and at the other extreme, some few prohibit all kinds of raw milk transactions; these issues will have to be dealt with at the state level.]
Me~> This is where I believe educating the masses and the new (probably some old ones too) farmers comes in. Knowledge of basic sanitation and handling of the products, those who go above "basics" will out shine and become more profitable. I wouldnt want chicken form the cramped factory bird farms nor eggs from those chickens that have been fed artificial feeds. Knowledge of how the food is raised, what they are fed, etc are important as is the farmers knowledge from their end. The factory farms are supposedly regulated and they are nothing more than breeding grounds for various bacteria and diseases.
5) Parents are free to feed their children whatever foods they choose.
Me~> This is an issue?
6) Farmers and individuals who provide raw milk or raw milk products to "others" should have legal protection in litigation (absent reckless behavior or actual knowledge of pathogens or other significant risk factors) so long as the proper identification and warnings (as in, #2) were provided and, in the case of "others" who are minors, so long as the identification and warnings were effectively communicated to the minor’s parent or guardian prior to consumption.
me~> Werent the suits against mcdonalds tossed out? The ones about the food causing obesity? It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that fast food is not healthy. Same principle, so yes there should be protection for the farmer.
7) Educational materials (directed to both producers and consumers) for the safe production, handling and processing of raw milk and raw milk products should be developed and widely distributed generally and in the producer’s advertising and sales media.
Me~> see #4
8) An open, collaborative, transparent and scientifically rigorous approach should be taken by producers, consumers and public health officials in all instances of disease outbreak with a common commitment both to protect public health and to protect continued viability of responsible producers. Public health warnings which are not connected to outbreaks of illness or which prove to have been unfounded, shall be followed by public health advisory followups which are communicated with the same level and extent of publicity as the initial warning, including exoneration of producers as appropriate.
Me~> Is this a possible reality? Is there fairness? Honesty?
9) Independent research (including analyses of testimonials and other real-life evidence as well as traditional reductionist studies) should be publicly funded to examine the nutritional value, environmental impacts of production, and the acute and chronic impacts on human health from raw and traditional foods and from industrially-produced foods.
Me~> Research costs money, those who have the $$ seem to make the rules. Should be and reality are a distant path from each other.
10) Broader insurance availability for producers and other risk-sharing approaches should be developed as a counterweight to regulation-by-litigation.
[Farmers might consider voluntary production standards such as various kinds of testing protocols or simply rely on many years of problem-free operation, so as to induce insurers to write policies, otherwise the insurers will want to "go automatic" and insist on compliance with various regulations which is their current typical mode. Similarly, a litigation defense which is founded in compliance with the testing protocols of a voluntary standard or in decades of trouble-free operation by simply "looking at the animals and watching what’s in the filter," should help to defend against litigation, and ultimately, to reduce litigation’s attractiveness simply because problems are so rare. It is a truism, that what insurance companies want most, is to write insurance where it is not really needed, since that’s the most profitable way to write insurance. As David points out, since we don’t really know how many people drink raw milk, we really don’t have any idea of the denominator and thus cannot calculate the real incidence of raw milk disease outbreaks.]
Me~> My only experience with insurance is for car , home and health and they all feel like I am paying big $$ and they are profiting hugely from my donations to them.
I hope that the positive energy created by using such names will filter over to help the cause.
Delightful! It sure did filter over on this end. Scratch those kids behind the ears for me, will you? I especially like Gumpert as a name for a dairy buck. They’re all going to have quite a legacy to live up to. Thanks for the grins.
So what’s the news on CT? Are the people rising?
Although it’s useful education, I think too many people vent frustration on the internet and preach to the choir instead of doing the research, plannning, networking and dilligence it takes to get a bill passed. Steve has presented a great list for legislating raw milk; maybe David could help us dissect and discuss one by one. It’s a little tough to address them all in one post, though Sylvia sure made a valiant attempt..
Colorado law requires that raw milk be labeled "unpasteurized". That’s simple, clear, truthful labeling.
-Blair
The entire US regulatory system is a complete, total, failure and has been for decades be it food safety or financial!!!
A few examples.
Chemicals in our air thru weather modification programs, fluoride in our water, melamine in baby food, GMO grains, cloned animal meats and thousands of approve chemicals added to our foods and we all get sick.
Then there is Enron, Arther Anderson, AIG, Lehman, WAMU, Bear Sterns, CITI, IndyMac, GMAC, Ford, GM and the regulators and the rating agencys missed it all? And we all get poorer.
And all the regulators and all the food safety experts preach about the great dangers of raw milk. And the finiancial folks have rated junk as AAA
How can we trust our food or our money to what the regulators have approve?
Why is the outrage only among the few?
http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd429.html
Just a little more on why a few of us are so outraged by what the system is doing to us ALL!
"We wanted to tell you about a new feature on Change.gov which lets you bring your ideas directly to the President. It’s called the Citizen’s Briefing Book, and it’s an online forum where you can share your ideas, and rate or offer comments on the ideas of others. The best-rated ones will rise to the top, and after the Inauguration, we’ll print them out and gather them into a binder like the ones the President receives every day from experts and advisors. If you participate, your idea could be included in the Citizen’s Briefing Book to be delivered to President Obama."
This is probably very confusing, but it’s important to understand that re-voting for these issues on the Change.gov site has the potential for greater impact since the Citizens Briefing Book project is run directly by the Obama transition team. The one topic "Health Freedom IS Our First Freedom" mentions increasing the availability of raw milk, did make it to the top ten on the private Change.org site and is also present verbatim on the official Change.gov site. I would strongly encourage everyone to register on the Change.gov site and vote again for that topic. It would hopefully make a stronger impact if that same topic was presented to President Obama from both the private and official sites. Here are the steps to follow to vote for that topic:
1) Go to http://citizensbriefingbook.change.gov .
2) Select the Sign In link to create a new account.
3) On the Citizen’s Briefing Book main page, enter "raw milk" into the search field, and press the Search button.
4) Select "Health Freedom IS Our First Freedom" from the list of titles.
5) Press the "Vote Up" icon next to the topic name and optionally leave a comment.
Other worthwhile topics for which you can search and vote include "Eliminate NAIS (National Animal Identification System)" and "Let’s make reduced-scale farming profitable! Less dependence on imported foods!"
Sincerely,
Don Neeper
Great names – thanks for the smile (positive energy). Can’t resist though…how about calling the next set of babies Marler and Sheehan (just kidding!).
Have a good MLK day, all.
Principle is important, as Steve concedes (minimally), but far more so than he and others are allowing. In the case of food warning labels, especially in the context of todays regulatory steamrollerism and the ideologies that drive it, principle is more than a mere symbol of a moral or ethical stand. The very presence of a warning label gives de facto weight to certain IDEAS. And as we all know painfully well, ideas in the hands of the powerful are handy excuses for actions. They are the key in the steamrollers ignition.
Agreeing to label raw milk as unsafe while leaving, say, refined carbohydrates (the essential cause of todays plague of Type II diabetes) unlabeled, and therefore presumed safe, is a dangerous strategy.
I freely admit that I’m compromising principle to some extent (a large extent, in your view), but if it relieved some significant regulatory pressure which is (unfairly, yes) focussed our way, I might get pragmatic about it….
I wonder if I named each goat with the last name of someone who was raided by a governmental agency, if I could name 25 to 50 of them. That might do me for names for a while.
Top article shows how untrust worthy published numbers are even on corn production.
Bottom article is about the fears of Conn. raw dairy producers going out of business do to possible new laws concerning the labeling of raw milk, new testing requirements and the costs involved.
Perhaps the only answer is to have freedom of direct sales between the consumer and the farmer at the farm [does the US CONSITITUTION permit such a thing???] unhindered by BIG BROTHER and his feared modern day Roman Leigons.
Actually, that’s all I’ve ever asked for… private sales between me and my already raw-milk-educated customers, most of whom would rather go without than buy commercial stuff.
And while we’re at it, I’d like the same thing for per pound sales of beef, lamb, poultry, etc (vs whole or part carcasses)… many of my customers don’t have freezer space to buy even 1/8th steer, and I don’t have room to store theirs, too.
just so anyone who cares to know knows; a troll is an individual (almost always on someone elses payroll, who’s job involves scanning internet message boards looking for those that display quality and integerty of content and participants. s/he then is to "join" the group under the guise of wishing to learn more.. once accepted to then pound the agenda of mis-information, propaganda mis-direction, fear mongering etc… again, always under the guise of "trying to learn/understand.
the mission of a troll is to repeat the same dogma, using variations on a theme but always hitting the same points. told enough times a lie can become a truth or at worst it will fog up the issues enough that the truth is masked. it’s phychologic warfare. it works. it’s effective. in fact 99% of our losses of liberty are due to this same tactic in politics.
i am tired of it. i usually ignore it but sometimes feel the need to fight back. there is no way to do so without being very blunt, i don’t like personal attacks and try very hard to avoid them, but the reality is that these people have an aganda of wanting to cause doubt or fear or unsureness in the general reader. and ignoring them doesn’t work, they don’t go away, if ignored they just change names and re-join as someone "new" or they create 2,3…or more accounts and post reinforcing messages amoung themselves to give the illusion that "others" feel like they do.
this tactic was born on stock message boards as a way to minipulate sheep to either buy or sell a stock. based on emotion. like real milk the target stock must be thinly traded. post a bunch of fearful messages about a company, product, management and get some sheep to sell with the intent to drive the price lower, of post a ton of optimism and get the sheep to buy, in a small, thinly traded stock a few sheep acting in a short period of time can have a large effect on price. the troll is hoping s/he can move the price enough to either buy your stock cheap or sell you his stock higher.
here with the real milk issue these minipulative tactics are used for obvious reasons. to instill fear. i.e. we’ll never see cp or observer play the other side of a troll. they’ll never do the research to find the truth, they don’t care about the truth….
ignore them and they still do their damage, confront them and they can be unmasked by their double speak replys.
group think is a powerful thing with sheeple and it’s even hard for strong people sometimes not to go along with group think.
it’s like the myth of having to sterilize everything that comes near real milk, most here won’t even argue it. but it’s a myth… you can wash your milk bottles with clorine if you like but it’s paranoid to the max. what do you think is in your milk that it requires such a regimen? it’s a fear issue and like labeling real milk with stern warnings… wrong.
when is enough enough, david once posted an anology to the jews in wwii germany, was enough enough when they took business and property from jewish folk? was it when they moved them to the otherside of the neighborhood tracks? was it enough when they loaded them on trains? was it enough when they gassed them?
where is that line though? if we are nice and try to open dialog and no dialog is opened do we need to be nicer? when farms are raided and seized do we need to be nicer?
when will the first real milk dairyman be shot by our para-military police troops? will that be enough? when a real milk farmer shoots a regulator will that be enough?
the issue is liberty, we need to never forget that or allow the trolls to get away with distracting us from that image. the reality is that control begets more control. niceness doesn’t work, never has…
we need to be pushed and pushed by those who are taking control over us until we’ve had enough. but waiting till we’re on the trains will be a big (and likely fatal) mistake.
how does one stand up and say enough is enough? should mark nolt, of mike smith simply denounce the authority of the system over them, declare themselves patriots and walk out of court before the case judge renders his ruling? if one of these heros of liberty is jailed what will we do to help them? will we storm the courts?
somehow i doubt it. self preservation is powerful. the powers that be know that. we will hem and haw awhile but in time (pretty short time) things will quiet down and the noose will be tighter around our neck and we’ll tread lighter…. hoping to avoid the same fate.
what we need to do is insist we go to jail with mark nolt, force the system to arrest us ALL! make them put everyone of us in jail…. then we’ll send a message…
personally i feel that we’re past enough is enough, but yet i won’t be going to jail with my heros, i have a family too. i have plans and goals…. see how it works? who of us here can say different? until we have absolutely nothing to lose we’ll hang on to less and less as a reason to… hang on.
so how do we procede? likely we’ll watch liberty slide into despotism and then watch america collapse from unsustainable abuse of the natural order,
Also here in Pa. as of 1/1/09 life for the farmer has become more difficult a new law was passed that required any goat or sheep that is transported off the farm must have a Scrapie ID number the animals date of birth ect. or face a $10000 fine per each violation. A back door approach for mandatory NAIS? Will animal birth certicates be next ?
A local farmer reported this to me last week but I have not been able verify via internet search.
We are today reaping exactly what the Founding Fathers warned against.
Why did the our Founding Fathers Declare Indepence and write the Constitution with the Bill of Rights what was their problem with England or has that been left out of Freedom 101 history class?
And I can’t sell meat by the pound…. for example, if someone wants 10 lbs of my steer’s hamburger, but not half of him or even an eighth, she’s outta luck. It’s the same with milk… they can buy part of the goat/cow and get a share of her production (ie, no cash is changing hands at time of milk distribution), but they can’t buy just a half-gallon of milk. Some people don’t drink much milk and don’t understand why I can’t sell them an odd half-gallon now and then; I then have to tell them it’s illegal to sell raw milk, which usually shocks them: "WHAT?!? How absurd!! Who thought up that stupid rule?" Actually, it pisses most of them off. LOL
Why can’t I legally sell small amounts of burger or milk? Who would it hurt?? It’s not like I’m setting up a storefront and selling meat to the general public at large…. nor would I want to.
It’s simply a small private transaction between me and another person who particularly wants what I have… except it’s illegal.
we small sustainable farmers are the ones being clamped down on and run out of business.
and we need to be nicer in dealing with the system to boot.
Yes Gwen it may be hard to enforce but again its the FEAR of the $10000 fines and all the hassle one would have in our upside down corporately skewed justice system. So SAD!
Also PDA news release they claim a Pa raw milk producer had a raw milk sample test positive for salmonella.
http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=1048&STORY=/www/story/01-20-20094957462&EDATE=
No illness reported.
One time I took animals to the salebarn, and the ones with scrapie tags were RETAGGED. I saw some goats there with 3 scrapie tags in their ears. Our state’s tags aren’t small. Why bother if they’re going to do it again every time they hit the salebarn?! I quit tagging my animals 2 years ago after seeing this and one of my animals ripped hers out and got a nasty infection. For Lamancha’s it has to be torture. (BTW, I like Lamanchas). It is animal abuse, and farmer abuse to require this under such practices as multiple tagging. For godsakes, the numbers in the ear are assigned to the farmer, and ONE is enough. I am NOT tagging my animals if they’re doing it again at the salebarn – no way, no how. I have a bag of USDA tags out in the barn that have been sitting 2 years. I guess if I sell to someone on PA, I’ll use them then. I asked for more 3 years ago, and they were never sent, so the USDA is noncompliant with their own rules. Can’t use ’em if I don’t have ’em. And I’m not paying for their rules either. If they want me to do something so they can keep track of my animals, they’d better pay for it themselves.
Well said. Where do each of us draw the line? What will it take to get me beyond MY comfort zone and stand up fin a meaningful way for what is right?
Thank you for increasing my level of discomfort for my inaction.
David
Well said. Where do each of us draw the line? What will it take to get me to act beyond MY comfort zone and stand up in a meaningful way for what is right?
Thank you for increasing my level of discomfort for my inaction.
David
Fear controls many.
Hugh,
People will stand up when they have nothing left to loose. It is unfortunate that it comes down to that before more than a token effort is made. I think people also are misguided greatly in believing that the governmental entities will look out for the better of all.
This is why I believe that educationg people is the key. People are visual. Put photos of the feedlots, chicken houses, etc out there, show the ingredients of the feed going into the food chain. Show the photos of the continued garbage at the slaughterhouses. Teach about the insecticid/pesticides going onto the produce thus into the rest of the food chain. People have no clue today where or how thier food is manufactured.
Look at the effect of the vidio about the slaughterhouse. Yes it was short lived, possibly because nothing else followed. If more and more information continues to come out, people will stand up in-mass and the effect to change will be greater. Target mothers, isn’t that what the govt does? Manipulation, that is what the govt entities do.
Teach what those chemicals do to your body especially over a prolonged time. The ads on TV promote that small amounts of certain chemicals are harmless, yet they don’t say anything about years of accumulation.
Education is the key. It will bring people together to change things.
Readers should be most interested in the cute story: National Cow Tax Leave My Cows Behind at The Journal: http://wholefoodusa.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/cow-tax/ and
I hope Michael Schmidt fares well in court today.