Brit says (following my Sept. 11 post) that she and her husband had the flu the other weekend, based on their symptoms. Melissa in her comments following the same post suggests they had listeriosis from the Organic Pastures cream that was recalled, based on the timing of their illnesses.
Reading these widely varying speculations reminds me of an interview I had last November with Lewis Jones, then head of the Ohio Department of Agriculture’s dairy division, which I recounted in a posting shortly afterward.
I asked him about the illnesses of an elderly man and a four-year-old Dayton boy, which the ODA concluded were caused by raw milk. That conclusion triggered the shutdown of an Ohio dairy.
The elderly man actually said his immune system had been compromised. The mother of the boy wrote on the BusinessWeek.com site after publication of my article about Ohio’s harassment of farmers that the boy had likely become ill from eating snow laced with bird feces.
Jones’ response to the mother’s suspicions? “That’s what’s so dangerous (about raw milk). If people get sick, they’ll say it was something else.”
In other words, people who consume raw milk are ignorant ideologues, who can’t face “the truth.”
The solution of Jones and other officials in Ohio was to rid the state of raw milk. It would be as if the Hall family decided that every time it snowed, they would have all the snow cleared from their land, and prohibit their children from visiting anyone’s house where there was uncleared snow, to eliminate any risk from ingesting infected snow.
I think Mark McAfee makes an excellent point following my posting yesterday, when he states that “raw milk is not perfect and that is what makes it perfect. It is a product of nature and filled with a diversity of hopefully wonderful and great living healing things. There is absolutely no guarantee of perfect safety in any natural thing.”
When you drink raw milk, eat sushi, down a spinach salad, or eat raw almonds, you are taking your chances. (Actually, you’re probably taking more of a risk from a bologna sandwich or fast-food burger, but I diverge.) It’s a small risk, actually a tiny risk, but there is a risk nonetheless.
And if there is illness, you usually can’t be absolutely certain it was the raw milk or the spinach or whatever if the authorities can’t isolate the E.coli or whatever the bug is and match it with the food and producer in question.
That is what happened in the case of Chris Martin and Lauren Herzog—either no bug was discovered (Chris) or the bug that was discovered (Lauren) couldn’t be matched up to any food or producer.
The parents of these children have their beliefs, just like the Hall family in Dayton had its beliefs. Either belief could be correct. The Hall family wanted the ODA to be honest and forthright, but it refused to go further than simply repeat its mantra that raw milk was the culprit. The Martins and Herzogs want Mark McAfee to be honest and forthright. He has given the Martins and Herzogs much more than the ODA gave the Halls, but they want something additional—“facts,” an apology, an investigation, is what I hear.
They definitely want him to keep in his mind the details of their cases the same way they do. But as a couple of people point out, Mark isn’t like that. Anna says it well when she states, "Yes, McAfee’s passionate and evangelical (perhaps a bit too much in manner like a revivalist) and often speaks extemporaneously so some of his words could be better chosen. So I guess I make allowances for some of the more over-the-top things he says (for instance I object to the ‘cure’ claims). He’s a believer, and as such, is into it 100%."
I’ve known many entrepreneurs like Mark, and their minds don’t operate like those of lawyers, or journalists. Mark was cleared of wrongdoing by a system that would have liked nothing better than to put him out of business. He can’t be expected to keep being re-tried and rehashing the details of the cases over and over exactly the way the parents want to hear it.
Probably the situation I have had to deal with that most closely resembles the Mary/Melissa situations involved the murder of my grandmother by the Germans during the Holocaust (that prevented me from ever meeting her), and the injury of my aunt (whom I knew and loved very much), which led eventually to her death. For many years into adulthood, I avoided buying German products or traveling to Germany, to express my opposition to its recovery, even though post-War governments apologized and paid reparations. You see, they didn’t admit as fully as I would have liked the culpability of the great mass of German people. Eventually, I have let it go. I have been to Germany several times and I freely purchase German products. I don’t especially enjoy visiting Germany or hearing German spoken, but I decided that forgiveness for me personally was preferable to holding onto my hatred. It has been healing.
Would it have been easier or more difficult to forgive if my grandmother had died from eating some food that I suspected was tainted by a particular factory or farm? I’m not certain, and I’m not sure it matters.
In many ways it’s easier to just continue holding onto certain beliefs about guilt or innocence concerning some personal misfortune than to make changes that upset the beliefs. It’s certainly simpler than accepting the reality that uncertainty is an inherent part of the human experience. One of the main benefits proponents of raw milk are seeking is the freedom to experience such uncertainty for themselves.
An apology at this point would be nothing more than more b.s coming out of Marks mouth. As far as I am concerned the damage is done. That is Mark, that is his personality and thats that.
If the facts that Mary present do not make you wonder if it were the milk, then nothing will. David, you can spin this however you want but I dont need Mark to shove the e-coli down my throat to think there is a link between OP milk and Lauren. You are entitled to your opinion but it seems you wear your blinders on a lot of key points in these stories.
It is my recommendation to anyone who reads this blog to stop reading it if almost everything you read causes you to get so angry. If other peoples point of view and opinions cause you so much upset, then dont put yourself in a position to hear or read them. In my life, when things make me upset or angry, I avoid those situations which will increase my exposure to such feelings. I try to find constructive ways to change the situation or circumstances if possible. I dont go around insulting those with whom I disagree.
This is DAVIDs blog. If his opinion is not acceptable to you, and you cannot constructively and politely disagree with him, then please dont bother to post.
This is a very nice post as was the previous. I think I’ve become a regular reader of the blog now.
Amanda
There are many legal, ethical, scientific and social issues regarding our right to good wholesome food. Being part of a larger community and having access to quality information is very important-and something I appreciate.
Thanks.
Its very nice of you to come to David’s defense but David does a great job defending himself and his beliefs. I dont have a problem with that at all. Everyone should stand up for what they believe, EVEN ME.
Evelyn, maybe you should take the advice you are giving because I certainly dont want you to go to bed thinking about what I had to say. I dont think its anything to lose sleep over. You also can just skip over my posts, I always use my REAL name and its really a simple thing to bypass my comments.
Let me know if you want my e-mail address to say whatever else you want to say to me.
Must be a really good feeling seeing the maturation, and growing following, of this blog. I, as well as many others, are beholden to you for establishing this venue and maintaining a clear and purposeful direction of the discussion. This interaction is quite proficient at both cutting to the crux of, and creating new, topics. Kudos to you, man, great job!
I think many of the problems that can be associated with raw milk, come from the tendency to treat it within the conventional paradigm. It doesnt fit well with the attitudes created by, or the systems that constitute, the conventional food delivery system. Its impossible to guarantee that every drop of raw milk (or fresh unprocessed milk) that is ever produced.everwill be pathogen-free. While watching ones child fight for its life can be a perspective altering experience, having a clear understanding of the risks involved (vs the benefits attainable) could make post incidence attitudes different.
Is raw milk safer than a burger from your local ff joint or salad from a bag? One would need better information to nail down those percentages..but the fact remains, the risk for either isnt zero. Its this expectation and attitude that brought us pasteurization (and irradiation) in the first place.
While there will be setbacks along the way, these setbacks are inherent in any food delivery system. Should raw milk be held to a higher standard than any other food product produced in this country? Should it not be afforded the same margin for error that other foodstuffs are accorded? Hard to answer these questions when state officials are pursuing a concerted vendetta against the stuff, and every little incident (whether fabricated or not) gets magnified.
Raw milk demands a higher level of responsibility from those who produce it AND consume it. Some farmers, and consumers, being preconditioned to having the State assume the lion share of this responsibility, arent up to this. Larger operations dont get to choose their customers (good small ones do). Education (by both farmers AND consumers) is the key.
milkfarmer
PS It was an eerie Labor Day weekend here in California. It was blazing hot just like last year. I couldnt help but think about all the people drinking raw milk produced in this heat. Are they vulnerable because it is so hot? Bacteria explode in the heat. I kept wondering, Is there going to be another outbreak?
Personally I think this statement, despite a valid reason for holding it, isnt a rational oneany more than someone wringing there hands wondering which fast food chain was going to have ecoli show up there burgers nextor if the spinach washers are cleaning the leaves sufficiently. In and of itself it isnt too extreme, but persistence of these types of thoughts would make the suggestion of counseling a valid one. (Well be sure to skip a Catch-22 reference).
But her Labor Day weekend concerns are not at all irrational based on her own experiences. Probably all of the counseling in the world would not make them go away, it might just make them less persistent.
Research is piling up that the objective reality of someone in a traumatic situation is really rather irrelevant. What is important is what that person believes at the time to be true. Mary’s trauma centers around her decisions as a mother and her watching her son become sick. What any of us perceive to be the objective Labor Day risk is not relevant. Mary will perceive it to be much greater than any of the rest of us and it will shape her own feelings and behaviors. That doesn’t make her crazy, just a victim of trauma. And we shouldn’t have to agree on the cause of the trauma to recognize that she has been through it.
Amanda
I agree with you, if people want their food to be guaranteed 100% safe they should buy it all at Walmart.