I’m a little behind most of the rest of you. I was still yesterday digesting the intense comments from two posts ago (November 30). Deborah Stockton’s insightful analysis of how farmers have been betrayed over the last half-century-plus, by their own organizations, working with the government, to keep milk prices low and serve the interests of Big Ag. There was Milky Way’s curious assertion, “There is no law against possession of raw milk – no one walking, running, or riding (car, bicycle, horse) across state lines with raw milk is going to get arrested unless they are selling it (exchange of money).” Lola Granola arguing for respect of her go-it-alone under-the-radar approach to food production.
Before I could re-focus, Mark McAfee was saying yesterday he’s had enough with the negativity on this blog, that he “tried my best to be honest and truthful only to have my efforts and words twisted to serve a belligerent anti-raw milk agenda.” For McAfee, who has dealt with the highest-pressure situations imaginable, to feel this blog is too intense, well, that says something about the heat level here.
Then the debate following my previous post, about husbandry practices, and the pros and cons of Ken Conrad’s foot-in-the-bucket vs Violet Willis’ more tender approach.
Today, I received two emails from loyal readers with the same general theme–the belligerence is running rampant. One opened by stating: “I fear your site is destined to just implode into fine dust.” She noted that with Mark McAfee bowing out for the time being, following on the path of other veterans who haven’t commented much lately, “I just truly miss the substantial educational feedback I have enjoyed on this blog in the past.”
So I have tried to answer the question, what’s goin’ on? Here are a few things I see goin’ on:
* There’s a huge, and expanding, gulf between the raw milk “public sector” and its “private sector.” Or maybe I should say, between publicly sold food, and privately sold food in general. A big part of McAfee’s problems (and of the Raw Milk Institute) has been an inability to appreciate the different landscapes, and mindsets, of the two arenas. It may simply be that they are incompatible, as Violet Willis suggests, and as Dave Milano has suggested in the past. People who become accustomed to obtaining their food privately, via food clubs or herdshares or CSAs, come to have different priorities and values than those who are mostly buying their raw milk in retail stores. There’s a bigger emphasis on cooperation and community in such private initiatives, run as they are invariably by volunteers working together with farmers.
* There are lots of new people being drawn to nutrient-dense foods. These include true consumer types. They may well have unrealistic expectations about what is and isn’t a sanitary farm, or to what extent outsourcing might be appropriate. That’s not meant as a criticism. I’ve been writing about farming matters for a few years now, and still consider myself a novice about much that goes on in making a farm work for both farmer and customer. There are few sources of guidance; the public health community makes little or no effort to help educate the hordes of newbies heading out to the farms.
* There remains a huge amount of ignorance about what it takes to successfully produce nutrient-dense food. The discussion following my November 30 post, and Wayne Craig’s surprise, but on-target assertion that, yes, it can well cost $8 a gallon to produce milk, was revealing. Because he’s talking about producing a special quality of milk, artisinal quality, if you will. Our culture’s focus on price, price, price makes it nearly impossible for many people to ever fully appreciate that reality of high costs, and concurrent high prices–all in exchange for a product that is impossible to obtain in grocery stores.
* There is a great deal of misunderstanding about private food arrangements, and for good reason–they’re new to most of us, including farmers. A few people here have wondered about the differences between herdshare arrangements and leasing of animals, for example. Milky Way betrays naivete about the federal prohibition on taking milk across state lines, suggesting in the quote at the start of this post that it’s fine, so long as you don’t get money for it. She/he clearly doesn’t have an understanding of the “agent” concept, whereby consumers pay a farmer, and then designate an “agent” to pick up and deliver their milk. It’s that agent arrangement, and the government’s desire to try to make that arrangement (which is common in many industries, and includes sending a neighbor to the drug store to pick up a painkiller you’ve been prescribed because you are flat on your back) as the equivalent of commerce, that is being tested by the Raw Milk Freedom Riders on Thursday in Wisconsin and Illinois.
Around all these issues, there is a growing amount of disagreement and dissension, farmer versus farmer, farmer versus consumer, and consumer versus consumer. Mix in aggressive regulators trying to scare people off from the private realm, and trying their best to divide the food rights movement and, well, you get an idea of what’s goin’ on.
I’m certain I haven’t begun to get at all the nuances. Bottom line, though, except for the government’s efforts to slow down or break up the private food system, and some isolated individual nastiness on this blog of late, much of what’s happening is positive. Debating and discussing it just gets rather intense sometimes. I’m hopeful some of that will ease up as people step back for a moment before hurling some of their bombs.
***
Given all the issues I just discussed, the timing couldn’t be better for the introduction of a new book about how to organize a food club, “The Food Club and Co-Op Handbook”.
John MoodyWritten by Kentucky food club organizer John Moody, the handbook is full of up-to-date and practical suggestions for individuals thinking about organizing food clubs. (And John has truly done it, including facing down the regulators who came calling earlier this year at his food club. )
Among his suggestions:
1. If you are private, act that way. “Private membership that is truly private – no day passes, no walk-off-the-street and join up out of the blue, no allowing anyone to just come and go in your group’s space or pickups…”
2. Be up to date on food regulations. “For instance, raw milk cheese is currently legal in the U.S., but has a sixty-day aging rule and usually state specific regulations. The federal sixty day aging requirements may be increased in the coming years. Clubs need to stay aware of and oppose policies such as these that harm both their farmers and their health.”
3. Deal with members in a consistent and business-like way. He provides excellent information on technical financial details like markups, margins, and costs. He advises food club operators to be absolutely consistent about such things as member payments, as in upfront payments means no credit, no advances, no paying later.
4. Deal with farmers in a consistent and business-like way. A big part of a food club’s success depends on farmers who have a realistic view of the business landscape. He advises farmers: “Your discount to clubs that are placing large orders with you should be at least 25 percent so they can offer products to their members at least at your regular retail price. Most stores will be asking a 40-50 percent discount from suppliers, so consider working with clubs a deal!”
5. Watch out for hidden regulators. Moody’s book has a very timely section on “Avoiding unwanted members and undercover agents,” with suggestions on how to interview prospective members as to whether their real interest is in good food, or simply collecting information about the club for legal purposes.
6. And last, but not least, pay attention to food safety–handling meats and vegetables, and keeping both the facilities and the administrators dealing with the food clean and in sanitary condition.
And the previous is just a small sampling of the book’s nuggets. I thought at first this book was ahead of its time. But events are moving so quickly, with so many new food clubs being organized nearly every day, that this book may be right on time. Add to that the fact that it’s very clearly written, and only $12, and I think Moody has produced a winner.
Deborah
Mark hasn't been just randomly 'attacked', for fun. Every time someone has been critical of Mark it has been in RESPONSE to something he has said. Do you really think that those who disagree with him like the fact the the most prominent raw dairyman in the country is a deceiver…someone who says he has the best interest on raw milk farmers at heart, yet looks down the nose at the small producer? It's disappointing to see the guy with the highest profile, a profile he has worked hard to establish, not be able to handle being caught in a lie. (he obviously didn't watch the tape Kristen put up….and if he did, I'm sure he would've created a different 'line' for us)
Mark's critics don't have a monopoly on negativity…that is if you value truth as a positive.
Why don't we just gloss over Marks response the video linked by Kristen, lets just ignore the vast difference in 'what really happens at OPDC" when a PR person is engaging a potential customer (or, drool, a large local buying club) versus the 'party line' Mark like to feed us here. Lets just over look the dishonesty, and follow Mark into the jaws of 'our new friends' the regulators…open arms and blindfolds on. Lets just allow Mark to single handedly take control of raw milk from the small local farmers and and shift it to large factory farms and their regulator 'buddies' through his new institute. Lets just shut our mouths and keep smiling…after all, if we disagree we are wrong, negative and not worthy of consideration.
I contend that those who truly love raw milk, and have it's best interest at heart….and recognize it's true potential, will not just idlely stand by when others are seeking to industrialize it…mainstream it…and try and use the conventional food delivery system to distribute it.
I think it quite telling that a raw milk farm feels the need to employ a full time PR person. Now we all know what PR people do for large corporations… they're there to establish a 'false reality'…one that allows the corporation or it's products to be framed in a positive light. You can 'spin' it anyway you like….but the fact that OPDC needs a PR person speaks volumes. Can you get any further away from the eye contact and handshake of appreciation, after you hand someone a jug?
Mark needs a different crowd to sway. He has much baggage here. His 'retreat' is calculated…and if he has any hope of making his Institute amiable to most raw milk producers in this country, he's going to need to shut up, and let others, who haven't been as open about their prejudices, carry the 'dupe' torch forward.
Interesting, I was arguing for non-participation in the (regulatory) system and Ive been painted as just another black market milk supporter. Mark and Bill used to use the same euphemism to describe us dissenters when we refused to buy their bill of goods. Et tu, David?
There are whole political movements based on non-violent, non-participation. Ghandhi comes to mind. David Icke is another. But when I suggest the same method can be used here, somehow its ridiculously invalid to the point of my character being marginalized?
Lets get honest about what the raw milk movement is$8/gallon raw milk does NOT put raw milk into the hands of the masses, but rather into the hands of the white, middle-class urbanites and suburbanitesa raw milk elite. (Minorities have high levels of lactose intolerance, and country folk tend to dip out of their neighbors bulk tank for a lot less $$$.) We country folk have been drinking the stuff for years without hassle, but now that the suburban moms want itIsnt it really their rights were all here fighting for? Those who want their suburban, 40-hour-a-week lifestyle unencumbered by 365 day/year milkings? We say it benefits the farmer, too, but
If this movement is for the hard working farmers, why dont we ever focus on the root problem of those farmers, primarily that agricultural products are regulatable in commerce? They werent always, but are now. What changed? I know the answer to this – it has to do with breech-of-contract on the part of the government – but this movement would rather slap bandaids on the problem and wave feel-good banners than actually educate themselves and fight for real change, change that would benefit ALL people and not just the raw milk elite. Deborah Stockton touched on some of these issues recently, and NOT ONE person responded to her comments. Bury your heads and wave your banners, and make your checks payable to WAPF.
And if youre a leader of the raw milk elite, dont forget to demonize the dissenters along the way. After all, theres an agenda to be served here, and it doesnt go well to have the riff-raff stirring up trouble. Heaven forbid we have people thinking for themselves.
I share many of your concerns including those with respect to RAWMI and have also spent a good part of my life lobbying for the small family farm and landowner rights. That being said however I find myself compelled to question this argument for a closed herd.
If pigeons fly from one farm to the next and land in the pasture and roam around amongst the cattle leaving their droppings, can such a herd or herds be truly considered closed?
The list is endless with respect to All Creatures Great and Small that frequent farm and pasture on a daily basis. Along with the pigeons you can add, sea gulls, crows, ravens, turkey vultures, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, bear, moose, deer, mice, skunks, porcupines, ground hogs, raccoons, wolves. coyotes, foxes, shit flies, warble flies, face flies, horse flies, deer flies, etc.
How can one truly claim that a herd is indeed closed?
In my mind it is unhealthy to isolate and create closed environments for in doing so we limit and disrupt the diversity of exposure to organisms and likewise the challenges so very much need for good health.
For those of you who support this idea of a closed herd do you really believe that it is practical and makes sense to isolate our herds from these ubiquitous and perceived harmful microorganisms?
MW
Your reaction is predictable. Like a mothers reaction when her child discovers a wad of spent chewing gum under the restaurant table and sticks it in its mouth. Gwen and I have commented on a fact which has undoubtedly disgusted you and perhaps caused you to question if not Gwens integrity at least mine. So be it, for those who attempt to isolate themselves from the realities of this world the truth has a tendency to do that.
Indeed both my brother and I on occasion have caused my mother and grandmother to cringe in disgust at times. My wife refers to me as the wolfman, I wont elaborate on that fact and will allow your imagination to take over.
The farm I reside on and which has been in the family for three generation is found in a picturesque farming community north of Algonquin Park. Quite often those who come to visit the farm comment on how clean and tidy it is, and it has been suggested by many that it is a real nice or beautiful piece of property.
From my perspective there is something neurotic and disturbing about how sterile our lifestyles have become.
Ken
I don't think responding to your comments will result in any change in your views, but at least I will try.
You stated,
Lets get honest about what the raw milk movement is$8/gallon raw milk does NOT put raw milk into the hands of the masses, but rather into the hands of the white, middle-class urbanites and suburbanitesa raw milk elite.
***
This is incorrect on a number of levels. My buying club members are not at all the "elite." Up until a few years ago, the average income of members of my club was well under $30,000 per year. My family was making under $20,000.
At $8-9/gallon, and eggs at $3-5/dozen, and chicken at $3-4/lb, these foods are fairly priced, if you actually know what people used to pay as a % of income and other factors.
It used to be people spent 25-40% of their income on food… but now they have ipads, ipods, imacs, ibooks, internet, surround sound mega dvd hi def tv home entertainment centers, 3 cars, 5 bathrooms, large houses, lots of needless debt (college, anyone), and much else.
If food kept pace with inflation, these numbers would also hold true (true inflation, not the gamed/manipulated numbers currently put out by the gov't,
We as a culture are reaping what we sowed, but farmers shouldn't be punished because the price of raising quality food hasn't changed (in nominal terms, in dollars terms yes, but that also raises the issue of gov't subsidies, the diabolical federal reserve, and much else too). Real food has always cost a certain minimum % of income. $8 a gallon raw milk in some places is a real deal for consumers.
The price is not the problem for the masses, it is their warped priorities.
Should farmers be blamed for charging fair prices?:Most anyone, if they have their priorities and finances straight, can easily afford the price of real food.
Most people don't want to pay the real price of food that produces vibrant health, clean air, water, and land, healthy animals, and sustainable systems… our views need no defense or apology – the vibrant health of all involved in systems that we are building speaks for itself.
***
Per Deb's comments, please enlighten me, as I must have missed them.
But per your second assertion, you are again incorrect. Many of the raw milk freedom riders are working towards the deregulation of farmers and foods systems (to a certain extent and degree). We intimately understand and know how we got here, the problems and challenges the farmers face, and also understand how tough it is to effect change. We are working in our communities, states, and nationally to effect change.
Sorry, none of us are interested in band aids, contrary to your assertions. Again, maybe you would know better if you engaged in dialogue rather than a diatribe.
And it seems around here, those who know little to nothing of what is happening other than the misguided words of Mark at time on a number of levels are the quickest to speak with certainty about others they probably have never even meet in person.
To this I would just say, "be careful how you judge, for with the same measure you judge others, you will be judged yourself."
I think a number of people have made very good points and raised more than valid concerns at times, but these get drowned out in the personal, ad hominem, and unfounded other stuff that often accompanies it.
Perhaps if you spent some time with us, rather than hurling so many stones, you would have better information about those you seem so quick to criticize.
***
Isnt it really their rights were all here fighting for?
There is no my rights or your rights. There are only rights, and when one person's rights are violated, all rights are violated. If I have freedom to drink real milk but you do not, in a real sense no one has freedom to drink real milk. May I recommend a book, like The Law by Frederic Bastiat.
Many around here of late seem to be more intent on fighting against than for these rights at the present time anyway, so your statement rings a bit hollow.
Again, would love your input on what you think of as workable solutions to what you see as the root problems and constructive engagement with the issues.
But that would involve the laying down of the anger and assumptions that hinder constructive dialogue and turn every comment into another attack by a number of posters of late.
Hope you are well and warm,
John
As for your argument of non-participation in the regulatory system — Haven't you (and your husband Barney) mentioned numerous times that you ship Grade A milk to the processors?
I fail to understand why you are perfectly OK with complying with compulsory pasteurization laws, DATCP, and the FDA's Grade A PMO regulations, but the suggestion of a voluntary 3rd party listing (similar to organic certification) is cause for uproar and personal attacks against the character of those starting the organization.
I am not an "elite." I am a working class person, much like yourself, who happens to have a lot of knowledge about dairy food science and history, and wants to increase consumer access to raw milk. I think when you get past these petty personal attacks related to RAWMI, you will find that you and I probably agree on far more than we disagree on. I am sympathetic to your desire to avoid direct conflict with the state, since they will always win because they have the guns and the money. But RAWMI is a far cry from those forces — the very forces you are currently cooperating with.
Slightly divergent here — I'm also curious about your take on the proposed Gogebic Tacomite iron mine. I hope you recognize that this is another situation where the PUBLIC interest should trump the *privileges* of private property owners (in this case, an out-of-state corporation) to pollute our environment. Do you disagree?
http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/column/article_cfe2ac67-e2b5-50cb-9d1b-52985dd00da0.html
The context of a closed herd comes up in a video where the OPDC marketer claims they brought in 161 cows this past summer. An eyeball look at the herd says they milk 200+ cows. Their last county inspection report says 200.
You now want to talk about birds coming in and "unclosing" a herd to make a point that there is no specific definable line between closed and unclosed. Mark will come back and use your framework to defend his 161 cows — biodiversity.
In this context, are you arguing that when a dairy milks 200+ cows and brings in 161 in a summer season, that 161-cow worth of openness is necessary for biodiversity reasons and balances well against the food safety hazard of bringing in such a large number of new animals? If so, what specific benefit is gained by bringing in so many and do you see any food safety implications associated with it?
Amanda
$16 per gal is a tad pricy for the majority of people. Where do you get it for $8/gal?
Don't you just hate it when people generalize? I don't have all those gadgets mentioned above, I do have an iphone as at the time I got it, it was the only one available that would allow me to text with my child over in the sandbox bombing various countries….. communication helped keep us both somewhat sane. Not everyone has been drowning in debt. Though todays economy does suck, and I don't see it getting better anytime soon. So, there again, $16/gal is steep for many.
As for rights,, Who says I or anyone else requires someone to tell us what we can and cannot consume? If I choose to consume raw milk, it is my choice, just as it is anothers choice to consume fast foods. How would MORE regulation help?
David,
Regarding; "gulf between the raw milk "public sector" and its "private sector." Both these should be separate. If you supply to the masses in stores, there should be some regulation, and that regulation should be the same for raw and pasteurized dairy.
Why should my 4 cow share fall under the regulators?
"lots of new people being drawn to nutrient-dense foods. "
This is why honest facts/teaching should be done. Amanda's list of what to look for and ideas on what to ask is a good start for the new people. It is a good example.
"it can well cost $8 a gallon to produce milk, "
If it costs $8 to produce that gal of milk, then OP and Claravale are making almost 50% profit. And they sell how much weekly?
Where do you get raw milk for $8/gal? Not in California.
Just to be clear, I have no problem paying my hard earned money for good food and I do know that most farmers work their butts off to make ends meet.
A well diversified farm with many types of livestock but closed to outside animals is the ideal and that is what we have here on our farm.
I was burned quite badly a few years ago when I introduced some hatchery chicks into my brooding room where I was raising some of my Wyandotte chicks that I hatched myself . . . and were perfectly healthy . . the hatchery chicks started dying and then over half of my own Wyandottes perished . . . those hatchery chicks brought in something either viral or bacterial from a CAFO type environment . . . when animals are closely confined in unhealthy and unsanitary conditions . . . they are germ warfare bombs to farms like my own.
We raise heritage breeds that are much more resistant to disease and have active and healthy immune systems . . believe me, Ken . . . they are exposed to wildlife daily but never get sick from them . . . the problem arises when you bring in animals from questionable backgrounds and then introduce them to your flock or herd. I have seen farms horribly managed over the years . . . and I have been to livestock auctions with my sister years ago when she was looking for a cheap but good horse prospect to train . . most of these animals looked unkept and unwell . . . I do not want animals from these sources entering our farm . . . or any other livestock that has comingled with animals from the above sources.
I feel it is much safer to close off my farm to outside sources than potentially bringing in an animal carrying footrot, CL, OPP, Mereks disease, blackhead or scrapie.
This is the way farming was practiced all over the country up until just prior to WWII . . . most farms were closed and husbandry with an emphasis on breeding quality animals was practiced . . . farmers made extra income by selling the best breeding stock to young people investing in farms of their own.
Look at Victorian era photo's of farms and also read early books on animal husbandry . . . everything was neat, clean and tidy . . . please don't cringe when you hear those comments, Ken . . . they are paying you a compliment.
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
I can't comment on CA, don't live there, don't know numbers like cost of land, cost of animals, taxes, and other factors; my main point was the higher costs of real food are not at all unreasonable or unfair, especially at around 8-9/gallon for real milk, which I best is not too far off the national average for what folk in cities pay. Some cities (Chicago, etc.) pay a bit more, some pay less. Numerous factors help determine the final price.
If OP and Claravale could face competition, perhaps it would impact their pricing, perhaps not. Hence why the lack of free markets and competition is so bad for everyone involved, even the producers.
the generalization about people and possessions is… generally true.
BTW, I was mainly commenting on lola's post. It seems you took some of my comments out of context or as directed towards you when they were not.
I do not think anyone should have the right to tell me what to eat or how to spend my resources. I am a constitutional voluntarist to some extent, and do not believe aggression can accomplish much long term good whatsoever (regulation is a type of aggression, as is taxation, etc.).
If you look at % allocation of people's income in America, their protestations about not being able to afford real food fall apart when you see the amount spend on technology, gadgets, travel, house, etc. Sure, there are many people who don't fit the generalization; it does not annul its accuracy.
For instance, american's consume something like 30 gallons of soda each year per person… I consume… zero. as do the 4 other members of our house. So that means someone has to be consuming a good bit to get to that average. Also, it means that that average rounded down a bit is a good indicator of how many and how much the average person consumes. It is not at all then false to say, generally, Americans drink a lot of soda pop, probably over 10 gallons per person. Just because you as an individual don't doesn't destroy the validity of the analysis.
Generalizations are often helpful and needful when framing an issue and discussion. Don't you hate it when people generalize about generalizations being unhelpful?;)
John Moody prescribes a 40% bite out of personal income to feed oneself and family and a 25% kickback from producers to put milk on the store shelves. That all seems a little steep, even for a food club tycoon — Jesus gets by on a 10% tithe, why can't McAfee and Moody and Vonderplanitz…? Besides, these bigtime operators already have more money than God, flying their planes around and funding new regulatory agencies, why do they demand still more money from common folks like us and sacrifice from little guys like Hochstetler?
So to buy a WHOLE gallon, you'll pay at least $16.00.
SIXTEEN Dollars per WHOLE GALLON
$16 for a gallon of milk is high for most people, even in Sacramento.
I don't know how much other areas of Ca charge for OP or Claravale milk.
Making a profit is not an issue, they are in business to make money. At $16/gal most cannot afford raw milk often.
Wages in the Sacramento area vary greatly for RNs, If you work at the 2 Sutters (non-union) your pay will be $25-$40 dollars less per hour than if you work at the Kaisers (union)…If you work for the state Dept of health(mandatory useless union)….your RN pay will be @$30000 less than a prison RN who is also working for the state,,these are entry pays..prison nurses start at @90000 plus perks. $60000 to $70000 doesn't go far in Sacramento, income taxes can be anywhere from 1/4th to 1/3rd and up on your gross. If you work in a doctors office, your pay is even less. If you work for the VA you get San Fransisco wages. For the exact same job I had with the VA in Sacramento, to do the exact same in Tx,NC,Ar,Mo,Ga, etc the pay would be under 1/2 of what I was making.
I do understand that demographics is a factor in cost of living. In Sacramento, it is $16 per gallon for raw milk. Not $8.
As to why he has left? I totally get that he has been under a lot of pressure. He has a family of his own, and I do think that he has a passion for the product he produces. The Holidays and the Solstice are drawing nigh. The man deserves a break, and so do we. 🙂
I do miss some of the commentesr here, most notably Miguel, Ron Klein and Dave Milano. I am grateful for the continued comments of Goatmaid, Ken, and Violet. Milkfarmer has some good insight, too, though he seems very angry of late.
Welcome back, Bill A. Yeah, the iron ore mining proposal is the way Corporate/Goverment works.Typical MO – hold hearings miles and miles from anyone who cares. Native American harvest of wild rice in jeopardy, not to mention sensitive wildlife habitat. I sure hope you can recall Gov. Walker. Gotta tell you though – compare RAWMI to the Organic movement and it's the kiss of death from a farmer's point of view.
Your point about the "vulgar negativeness and nastiness" is well taken. Part of the challenge is that the issues discussed often become highly emotional, and become personalized during the discussions. I think sometimes it's just a matter of taking a deep breath before posting something that is too personally derogatory.
Lola granola,
I wasn't clear enough in my allusion to what I perceived as your position, but what I wanted to get across is that whether you choose to not participate or to sell to processors, or whatever, I respect your decision. Same as I do the guy Milky Way described who decided to pasteurize his milk That is your right, after all, to run your business as you see fit. I think we just disagree at times about our interpretation of court decisions and tactics for achieving food rights.
Flim flamm,
Wish I could say you are spewing half truths in your vitriol about John Moody, Mark McAfee, Aajonus Vonderplanitz, and David Hochstetler. No, I wouldn't dignify your commentary as being worthy of being called even 10% truths. "Kickback" implies dishonesty, and is the opposite of "operating margin." I know nothing about their personal wealth, but your suggestion most of these men are wealthy ("have more money than God") is laughable when compared to the world you operate in. Speaking of which, take your vitriol, smarminess, and trolling back to your world…and out of here.
David
Please redact my name from your blog as being "true consumer types, like Kristen Papec. They may well have unrealistic expectations about what is and isn't a sanitary farm, or to what extent outsourcing might be appropriate."
First of all, my name is Kristen Papac. Not Karen (thanks Gordon, you seem very angry with me indeed) and not Papec.
I really don't understand your point in including my name in that paragraph. Yes, I am a consumer type. No, I do not have unrealistic expectations.
1) I am learning about pathogens and sanitary conditions. In relation to Organic Pastures vs. a smaller operation like Claravale, I think the difference is clear.
2) The two farms/ranches I keep hounding on have very simple questions asked of them relating to outsourcing (Palmer) and misleading their consumers with bad marketing (McAfee). Both have been on this blog to "defend" themselves. Both have appealed to the apologist audience here who hears anything to do with big ag., government control, and food freedom and they follow the rally cry without taking a look and evaluating facts and numbers.
Shame on you, David. Farmer's markets know that undisclosed outsourcing is bad business which should not be supported. A good market manager makes special signage rules so that their consumers are not mislead. As for Palmer still being in markets here, well, all managers said it is the hardest thing to catch a vendor who might be mixing outsourced product with their own.
It makes me sad that so many people who obviously care about real food do not want to see these issues for what they are or discuss it.
Kristen Papac
I at one tome sold OP milk for Dey Dey's Best Beef Ever here in Southern California. Customers bought from us because we were cheaper than all the local markets.
$4 per quart
$7 for half gallon
$14 per gallon
Kristen
I stated in the same paragraph, "That's not meant as a criticism. I've been writing about farming matters for a few years now, and still consider myself a novice about much that goes on in making a farm work for both farmer and customer." I actually didn't have in mind farmers markets or Sharon Palmer– it was a generalization, and I mentioned you only because you've gone off on Mark McAfee as well as Sharon Palmer and Rawesome, seeming to speak as a consumer advocate. But as just one example of what I had in mind, I know that some farmers that sell their products from farm stores bring in product from neighboring farms. Some indicate that on labels or signage, some only explain if asked that the food comes from a neighboring farm. I'd consider all that outsourcing, but probably in an acceptable way. The idea is that there are many variations on the theme that are being sorted out as the private marketplace expands, and certainly should be discussed and debated. (Sorry about misspelling your name, it's been corrected.)
David
Thank you for correcting my name. Please REMOVE it. I still object to my name being used in that context.
Also, Mark left the blog discussion after serious questions were raised as to his marketing his product as 100% grass-fed and the fact that at least 25% of his herd was imported to his farm from other "organic' operations this summer. And now e.coli has been found in the manure of his calves. I am not suggesting a causal relationship, only that there are some serious questions that need to be answered, and now Mark is not here to answer them publicly. It seems a pretty calculated leave to me.
Would you like to comment on the videos? What is your personal opinion? I have noted that you are on the board of RAWMI, so maybe it is in your best interest to unequivocally support Mark McAfee and Organic Pastures Dairy Company?
Kristen
The price is not the problem for the masses, it is their warped priorities.
This very true, in Canada a gallon of cheap beer is selling for between 15-16 dollars/gallon yet they still manage to buy their beer. Raw milk should be worth at least half that or more.
Amanda
Do these birds, animals and insects I mentioned not harbor the organisms you are concerned with? If so do you not think it is impractical an misleading to suggest that a closed herd is attainable in order to mitigate exposure to these ill defined food born illnesses.
Bringing in 161 cows is not necessary in order to maintain biodiversity. Doing so is primarily a management decision done for financial reasons and/or to assure a supply of product. If the animals entering the herd are free of drugs, unvaccinated and healthy there is no reason to be concerned with food safety.
Violet, we do indeed have a great deal in common.
Buying stock from CAFO type environments is indeed problematic. Such environments are often closed and subject to restricted entry not to mention the fact that young brood stock such as chicks have probably been vaccinated and subject to medicated feed etc.
I purchase day old chicks every two years and if I cant get them locally I acquire them from a hatchery. Either or, when I bring them home I put them into a brooder box up in the barn well away from the main flock. Since unmedicated chick starter is not available I purchase and feed them duck starter which I know to be free of medication because of a ducks inability to consume such feed. After a month I introduce the chicks to the main flock and theres no looking back.
All the cattle that I purchase is done so privately and oftentimes prearranged a year in advance in order to assure that they are not vaccinated. I had to find out the hard way that some organic operations vaccinate their livestock.
Ken
I think its ridiculous that you make Kristen sound like an overbearing, unrealistic, moron with money in your blog article.
And then try and placate her by calling her a consumer advocate in your comments.
Make up your mind,
Kate
I think you meant that for David. But, thanks for your support!
Kristen
For clarification, you are arguing that because birds fly over the OPDC pasture in Kerman that the dairy need not take the precaution of closing the herd. Does your argument extend to other safety precautions (e.g. don't bother cleaning pipes?)
Amanda
Can a dairy farmer wear two hats: produce milk for the pasteurized & homogenized milk market and engage in contract work for raw milk drinkers?
On the topic of economic comparison over time:
Here are figures, comparing prices by the decade from 2011 back to 1950:
[ if it cost $16 in 2011, it wouldve cost $1.70 in 1950, &c.]
2011 $ 16.00
2000 $ 12.17
1990 $ 9.24
1980 $ 5.82
1970 $ 2.74
1960 $ 2.09
1950 $ 1.70
2011 $ 4.00
2000 $ 3.04
1990 $ 2.31
1980 $ 1.46
1970 $ 0.69
1960 $ 0.52
1950 $ 0.43
Specific Reference for the above table:
U.S. Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
and a more General Reference:
from the USDA Economic Research Service-
http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/CostsAndReturns/TestPick.htm
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
Your name has been removed from the post.
David
Thank you.
Would you care to comment on the videos found here (http://healthytraditions.com/blog/post.cfm/certified-raw-milk-in-california-visits-to-the-two-raw-milk-dairies) and that have been a huge part of the raw milk discussion here?
So much so, that when brought to light, Mark McAfee left this forum, and you commented: "For McAfee, who has dealt with the highest-pressure situations imaginable, to feel this blog is too intense, well, that says something about the heat level here."? Do you think that the information in those videos had anything to do with the heat level here and his leaving this forum?
I certainly do.
The old saying is: "If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen." It seems McAfee has left the kitchen. But you, David, are head chef here. I think your opinion matters.
Have you watched the videos, David? Would you care to comment?
Kristen Papac
How is it you object when David misspells your name, but not when Mary does it? I thought his description of you was fairly accurate, BTW. Some of us work on and off the farm, by design. Some of us whine that it's an impossibility.
Has anyone seen this too, and can reference it?
Thanks!
I had not noticed Mary's misspelling of my name. I don't want to be associated in the blog post, above, because I feel it is not representative of what and who I am. It is an over-generalization for sure. What does it matter to you, by the way?
I do not whine that I don't live on a farm nor do I say it is an impossibility. I am not here to debate rural vs. urban values.
A consumer is a consumer is a consumer. If I did live rural, say that I lived in Fresno county with Mark McAfee, and raised chickens, lamb and vegetables, but bought my raw cow's milk from Mark…are my questions more relevant then?
Not following your logic, sorry.
Kristen
I appreciate that you are a producer of real food. What is your point, exactly?
Or does this extend to the historical annoyance that Kirsten's and Kristen's must endure when someone spells or speaks our name as the other?
Kristen
Good heavens, this reads worse than a bad family reunion.! LOL!
I haven't read this blog for about a month, and today I actually had some time to read David's comments. I found myself laughing out loud at the negative interpretation that was assumed by some of the follow up commentators…..I did NOT get ANY sort of negative impression from what David had written, however the follow up commentators did come of as having willingly assumed a position from which they wanted to better grind the proverbial ax..in other words, they appear to be looking for a reason to be upset.
Sigh.
I do want to thank the folks who make comments and will actually use their real names, I don't think that it is by accident that their comments tend to be of a more sane and civil tone compared to the anonymous, and accountability free comments.
Hmmm.
David, FWIW, I have been a long time member of an international sheep production forum….we are a 500 member base that is comprised of wanna bees, hobbyists, owners of small holdings all the way up to large commercial ranches.
The forum thrives by the give and take of it's members and the agreement to remain civil. Differing opinions are expressed without the silly and unproductive discourse that I have witnessed here.
We all consider it a gift to be allowed to share in the network and we do NOT take it for granted.
David, that list is moderated by the list owner..he has the right to kick any of us off at anytime, after all, we are his guests. Demanding a civil tone does NOT hamper a free exchange of ideas and conversation, quite opposite, it is very freeing since non of us has to waste our precious time playing referee. In the last five years, I can only think of one time when it became necessary for one person to be asked to leave the forum.
The tone of the comments has entered into a downward spiral reminiscent of a bunch of snippy old church biddies arguing over who in the congregation is going to go to heaven and who isn't.
Really.
Thank you for speaking for David. But since you piped up…there are a whole host of videos and pictures of Organic Pastures farm tours with people enjoying the dry cows on pasture in the front of the dairy that the dairy shows it's regular visitors. When a lone critical video from a person who knows what to ask comes along, however, you are quick to dismiss it as irrelevant. Nice.
Kristen
I appreciate your obtuseness, but I would appreciate your opinion about the milk prices even more.
I gather you have an engineering background?
No history as to the misspellings of my name with yours in my lifetime. Rather, I am frustrated that people crab and criticize how things that they want are made, but never endeavor to make them themselves.
I'm not talking a car engine or nuclear reactor here, I'm just talking milking a goat.
It's on you. Not hard.
I can do it and still have a full time job.
Deborah
Please disregard my comments so you can address the more relevant ones from Deborah.
Deborah
I had read the commentary at the Healthy Traditions site you link to, but not viewed the videos till now. I am prefacing my comments by repeating what I stated in my post—that I am not a farming or animal husbandry expert. Remember, we see very little in the way of videos from CAFOs, except in places like Food Inc.
My first reaction was that the OPDC marketing woman answering questions was speaking from a different script than that used by Mark McAfee. She spoke about reduced immunity among the cows during the summer (not to mention dying cows from before the shade structure), as well as the fact that the cows eat a fair amount of feed. She didn't say anything about precautions taken in adding all those new cows to the existing herd, if there are any.
Is there a discrepancy from the OPDC web site, which says, "Organic Pastures produces Grade A, 100% organic, pasture-grazed raw milk of super premium quality."? I'm not sure, since I can't be certain if that sentence suggests the cows are 100% grass-fed or that they are grazing on grass that is 100% organic.
I'm not an OPDC customer, but I suppose if I was, I'd wonder if I was getting "raw milk of super premium quality" At $16 a gallon, I think customers are entitled to ask tough questions. Yet, from what I see at the OPDC Facebook page, customers are nearly unanimously happy and desperate to have their milk back, so I'm not sure any of what I am saying here is of importance. Enough people seem to value the product enough to pay $16 a gallon. Happy producer and happy customers. What more could you ask?
As for Claravale, the video seems to jive with what the dairy has always said about its cows and milk production. Only the video segment was much briefer, and didn't include any Claravale people on camera. I wondered if the person who did the video asked the same Qs as were asked of the OPDC marketing person.
Just some off-the-cuff reactions.
David
Due north of OPDC land is a conventional almond organic, due east conventional grapes, due west a highway and then a conventional dairy across the highway. I'm not sure what's raised just south, perhaps the grass you mention. Just below that apparent grass is the poultry place you see in the video. Apparently two people can see two different things.
Amanda
My opinion re. the price of milk:
The dairy products world of the PMO is in irreversible divergence from any sensible nutrition target. The more attempts are made to patch it up, the faster it will blow apart. I see this in the context of the science of statistical process control (SPC). The low prices they can offer will not stop this process of divergence. The move to traditional, and unpasteurized and unhomogenized, and fermented dairy products is underway. If this is so, then the industry directly involved in torturing milk will substantially decline; look for them to look around for something else to use their equipment for and if they can, gin up some crisis and have the force of law mandate their hiring, wellhasnt stuff like that happened? If milk production devolves to a huge number of small, high-quality producers whose products are precisely shipped to the customer with payment going from the customer directly to the farmer, then the aggregating handlers will have many changes to make. The idea that fickle city slickers will entice cash starved farm folk into legally risky positions and then herd-off somewhere else, leaving the cow handlers in a crash-and-burn state is horrible to contemplate. As to prices, I think Karl Marx was an evil fool, and that John Maynard Keynes was wrong and that the less their two bodies of thought influence us, the better. Give me a stable currency and a citizenry with well-formed moral consciences, on the whole anyway, and well be fine. I visited the very lush St. Croix. I asked the grey-headed ones about dairy. The answers saddened me to hear. No local dairies. In the past, yes, but not now. Why? Once I offered a smidgen of homemade kefir to an older Norwegian relative and he looked at the glass and looked at me and handed it back to me. i.e. fill. it. up. No one else even tried it. When he was a youth, in the summer, they took the cows to the high pasture and the cream they sold and the milk sat in wide shallow bowls and after a few days it tasted like thisyum! He drank two full glasses and wanted to know everything.
You could honestly say that the whole world thinks cholesterol is a problem, but having read Uffe Ravnskov, I think the whole world has been substantially conned. Whether it started out that way or not I am unsure. But I am sure that we are far into the area of intentional deception in that matter. Deception by commission or by omission or by lack of due-diligence- what does it matter?
In how many other areas has society, as a whole, been substantially conned?
Conned means a confidence game. i.e. a betrayal of trust. There is an old saying that if the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
Look at it as the curse of credentials. I have my hard-won credentials and you have yours. So I trust you and you trust me. This is all well and good but if rot enters such a system, especially subtle rot, how will it be rooted out? Rooted, thats just it- it isnt easy to correct. Prune a branch=easy. Root out rot=difficult. And what is the measure to be used to set things straight?
That is my opinion on the price of milk.
Lets improve things while we yet live so that coming generations will bless our memory.
I have a technical, not engineering, background.
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
Thank you for viewing the videos. I really really appreciate that you took the time to view them.
Grass-fed: on the bottle label it states "100% grass-fed, organic, family owned and sustainable"
The difference in the videos: perhaps because OPDC marketing lady Marcy had a lot more to say than Garthwaite, who from all accounts seems right to the point and doesn't really give much of a darn about marketing over making good milk? Just my humble opinion, of course.
Kristen
A fine point but relevant, the labels from their website (I don't have a product here) says:
"100% organic, grass fed…"
David makes a good point suggesting that the "100%" only modifies the word "organic." However, there are also industry standards for using the term "grass fed" and I would have to look it up (or maybe someone here knows) but I believe it is 100% grass. It's mainly used in the meat industry.
Regardless, their marketing message is that the cows are on grass. Someone this summer posted here saying he or she asked OPDC's farmers market people directly what the cows were fed and the answer was "100% grass." There was a blogger some months back who did a tour of the farm and then posted a big blog post about the grass only to realize from the comments that the cows eat grain. In fact, in some of those positive OPDC FB comments after the recall, some were along the lines of "OPDC cows only eat grass, how can they be producing pathogens?" We can't focus solely on labels and overlook the general marketing message coming from the dairy.
Amanda
http://www.foodclubsandcoops.com/hey-hey-fda-what-are-you-gonna-say-sheriff-brad-rogers-creates-a-problem-for-the-food-police%E2%80%A6/421/
http://wp.me/p1VxSC-6N
Find out a little bit more what the FDA is or is not thinking…
With respect to food safety or safety precautions as far as I am concerned this issue is a moot point.
What I am arguing is that a closed herd scenario is not a viable solution to your food safety concerns and that such a scenario over the long run will undermine the quality of the animals life and the food it produces.
Birds are recognized as long-range vectors for any bacterium, virus, parasite, or drug-resistant organism they harbor and will do much more then just fly over Claravale or OPDC pastures.
They will perch on the cows backs, and walk around amongst the animals in the pasture, bathe in and drink out of livestock water tanks and bowls or jump in and out of feed troughs. While engaging in these activities they will deposit their droppings wherever it suits them, step into and scratch around in the cow manure, as well as peck grain and other items out of the cow manure. They also have figured out that cow manure makes an excellent building material for their nests. Its quite common to see a barn swallow fly up to its nest with a mouthful of cow shit. The birds repeat this routine at the various farms they travel to on a daily basis.
By isolating a dairy herd off from other livestock such as goats, sheep, pigs, horses, chickens, rabbits, dogs and cats you may limit the spread of organisms you wont prevent it. Animals in a dairy herd would need to be isolated from the outside environment and provided filtered air in order to be considered part of a closed herd. SPF (Specific Pathogen Free) hog farms are the closest example to a closed herd that I can think of and even they have their limitations since organisms such as salmonella are figuring how to thrive in these so called closed herd type situations.
As to whether or not my argument extends to other so called safety precautions the answer is no, my concern is the validity and integrity of using the term.
Ken Conrad
Ken, thanks for the heads-up on duck starter. I didn't know it was different than chick starter.
You need to come up with a new term because the term "closed herd" is well-recognized in the industry. Use a different term to reduce confusion.
As an aside, I asked a dairy expert whether bringing new stock into a herd could increase e coli shedding in the herd. He said "absolutely."
Amanda