One of the things that continues to impress me about this blog is how especially emotional the discussions become when the subject turns to food safety and pathogens. Sometimes the conversations degenerate into name-calling, which seems to have become an unfortunate fact of life on the Internet. But more significant to me, the discussions often degenerate into grenade tosses between the pro-raw-milk crowd and the anti-raw-milk crowd. Sometimes, the anti people complain that they get run off the site, that their arguments arent listened to.
Ive always been puzzled by the way things degenerateafter all, were just talking about a tiny percentage of the populace that wants to drink milk in a natural state. But, of course, its not that simple. Were talking about important symbolism.
I think a few recent events have helped clarify how much more is going on here than a debate about milk. After my Nation article was published last week, the Haphazard Gourmet site wrote this about my article:
Writer David Gumpert has an excellent piece in the online version of The Nation: Toxic Foods, Tainted Loans, in which he parses the US relationship to China and its poison foodchain. ..The Hap Girls are mentioned in Mr. Gumpert’s piece. We’re somewhat surprised, because Mr. Gumpert is a Raw Milkie; he’s written repeatedly about Fed scrutiny of raw milk providers, and runs a pro-raw site called The Complete Patient, but apparently he’s unaware that The Hap Girls–and food poisoning attorney Bill Marler, whom he also quotes, are anti-raw. Hmmmmm….
Obviously, I knew these people were anti-raw when I wrote the article. I quoted them because I thought their concerns about the Chinese dairy situation and the spread of Chinese products around the world, including the U.S., were well placed. The Chinese dairy problem is a serious food safety issue, and these individuals seemed to have useful information and observations.
What is intriguing is their sense that because I am pro-raw I am the enemy. They cant comprehend that I can be both concerned about food safety and in favor of the right of consumers to have access to unpasteurized milk.
And that is the dilemma here. To them, food safety and food rights cant be separated, while to me they often are separate issues.
Kimberly Hartke, who comments frequently on this blog, has just written an excellent op-ed piece that explains the rights part of the issue very well.
Why this failure to distinguish between safety and rights? Ive said before that I believe theres an ideological disagreement here over the ongoing relevance of the Germ Theory. Others have pointed to the desire by Americans for ever-more regulation of our lives.
But Ive come to believe were dealing with another, perhaps bigger issue, really a cultural issue. Those who argue that even a few illnesses in well informed people who choose of their own free will to serve raw milk to their families trumps any rights issue, are offended that raw milk consumers would defy established scientific and public health dogma. Many of these opponents (certainly not all) dont just object to the fact that raw milk consumers want to drink raw milk. The opponents also dont like that the raw milk people often turn their backs on other givens in our society, like over-the-counter drugs and diet soft drinks and infant formula and public schooling.
Michael Pollan in his lengthy essay on food politics in Sundays NY Times Magazine, begins to get at it when he alludes to the charge of elitism sometimes leveled at the sustainable-food movement. If they wont drink the Diet Cokes and eat the burgers we barbeque at our cookouts, these people must be very weird.
Even assuming some weirdness, does that mean were not deserving of respect? The Hap Girls and Marler prefer the old-fashioned tactic of demonizing those who live differently or hold different viewsan effective tactic for sparking wars and encouraging discrimination. What’s much more disturbing is that government agencies have jumped on the bandwagon. When you demonize those who are different, you cant possibly eat from the same table, have a rational debate, or otherwise be tolerant of each other. Pretty sad.
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NOTE: I have changed the site againthis time, by requiring a simple log-in procedure for those who want to post comments. Youll have to register by providing your name and a valid email address; the latter wont be published.
Picked apples in traffic medians and at the dog park, eating and bagging service berries and mulberries, taking purslane from sidewalks downtown, and so much more. Every week there have been foods to gather and eat and store.
And for many people it is as though I’m from Mars. Our perception of food safety is just so totally screwed up and sideways. So many people really were truly concerned that I was doing something dangerous eating berries from a tree. How did we get so turned around?
Marketing has done more damage to people’s intelligence about food and food safety and food quality. More than any other factor. The regulators are a product of marketing, and marketing drives big agriculture to try and stamp out all of our thousands of years of history and knowledge about what to eat.
The results are just plain devastating. Our health, our environment, our appreciation and involvement in nature, and our economic priorities. All being destroyed by marketing and making food into big big business.
I need to go drink some raw milk and eat some homemade applesauce from abandoned city trees. And perhaps a few nuts from a local hickory tree as well. That will help me feel better. And then put up some herbal vinegars for calcium, and then — — hey it is possible to get really excited and happy in the bounty of nature. Don’t you dare try and take away my pleasure in finding, growing, and trading for the best food ever not found in any store!!
And why is there greater interest in my classes on wild foods and herbal medicines than there has been for over a decade? Time for a paradigm shift.
If only there were the possibility of talking openly, it would be interesting to know how many of the virulent "anti" faction have a personal history of consuming raw milk, and if so, why have they changed. Such a dialogue might help put perspective on their current views, perhaps as balance to the views of the "pro" faction which seem to be amply represented.
My Dad, who died several years before I discovered the importance of raw milk for my own health, was a dairy farmer in the late 40’s. My Mom tells me, he would never have drunk raw milk (although I seem to remember taking turns with the cat when he’d divert a stream from the bucket). I suspect he held this view since he saw the benefits of pasteurization over what he may have experienced growing up in the 20’s and in Depression years as a farmboy in Massachusetts. I’ll never know. I do know other dairy farmers whose families regularly drink the raw milk that they send to be pasteurized. One of these men told me that he never could stand the taste of store milk. And now that he’s older and has quit dairying, he simply doesn’t drink milk.
So, there are lots of stories out there. It would be interesting to hear some of them, in a neutral forum, so that we could perhaps all learn something. Perhaps David’s new site controls, and his ever-gentle urging that we be civil to each other notwithstanding our differences, will permit us to turn a new page in this story.
So, it’s very confusing and threatening when we cranks over here are spouting off nonsense about raw milk, grass-fed beef, government repression, protecting and promoting small farmers, traditional foods, etc. And then try to explain that the reason health care and health insurance costs are spiralling out of control is the demand and consumption of cheap, industrial, processed and devitalized foods are leading to long-term, chronic biological failures. Then they break out the pitchforks and start lighting the torches – how dare you drink raw milk, how dare you feed your children food straight from the farm! McDonald’s and juice boxes are good enough for my kids, do you think you’re better than us? 🙂
I would like to leave the "anti" crowd with one question. How many friends, relatives, neighbors and co-workers do you know who suffer from type II diabetes, any kind of auto-immune disorder (ALS, MS, Lupus, Celiac, rheumatoid arthritis, type I diabetes, etc.), cancer (another immune system-mediated disorder), CHD or any other of the host of chronic illnesses that the medical community terms the "diseases of modern civilization"? They are called diseases of modern civilization for a reason, specifically that they were unknown or extremely rare up until the 1930s and later. Given the fact that these disorders are at epidemic levels in our society, is our current system really doing us any favors?
I forget where I read the words; "when we don’t learn from history, we are destined to repeat it". Many of our ancestors came to this country to escape this type of treatment. Yes it is sad.
I’m the kind of person that came to raw milk out of curiosity and necessity. First was my mother telling me it’s impossible to make cheese at home, it could only be done in a factory, and I wondered what people did before factories.
Then it was getting married and discovering I was incapable of having children, that though I lived a clean life with little alcohol and an intense aversion to anything involving smoking I was sterile. I’ve had the unfortunate luck to be surrounded by quite a few people who live more unhealthy lifestyles than I do yet suffer none of the challenges I’ve faced.
I’m 24, I can’t have children, my thyroid doesn’t function, I’m on blood pressure medication and I exercise daily. I eat the federal recommended amounts of foods yet something is VERY SERIOUSLY NOT RIGHT.
I’ve done everything I was told and in return I’ve gotten medical bills I can’t afford and a future without hope of the family I’ve always dreamed of. For me personally it was time and more than time for a change. I’ve since started to educate myself about the different foods movements. Some things I agree with, some I do not, but most importantly is the fact that I’m out there SEARCHING.
I cannot get raw milk where I live, for that I’m deeply dissapointed. But I can and do buy local and organic whenever I can. Something I read online struck me as just being GOOD SENSE.
If you’re filling your body with produce and foods that are lacking in nutrition and full of additives your body will think it’s starving. Systems will break down and you will not have the reserves to maintain health. This just makes so much sense to me. If you don’t eat nutritious foods, even if you’re not hungry, you won’t loose weight and you won’t be healthy.
I’ve since started changing my diet, one meal at a time, to whole foods without additives and I’ve noticed an immediate difference. I no longer need antidepressants, I’m no longer getting in trouble at work for my wandering attention, I can sleep at night and I’ve more energy than ever. I haven’t weighed myself in two months but I definitely need new pants.
I was raised to accept what doctors told us, what the government told us. I’ve been a good little sheep and at 24 it’s almost killed me. This is what’s happened to me, personally, I’m not saying everyone else should throw off whatever path they choose to follow, only that I should have the right to follow my own. I find it the pinnacle of hypocritical hubris to think that anyone in America has the right to stop someone from satisfying their own nutritional needs in whatever way they decide is proper. The first settlers fled England and other countries because of religious oppression (or so we are teaching our children in our schools). Shouldn’t the next logical leap of thought lead to an acceptance of those who choose to believe differently? You do your thing, I’ll do mine, we won’t hurt each other, and it’s ok to agree to disagree.
It’s a free country after all.
At least I thought it was.
Just avoiding sugar, white flour, soy and processed foods will go a long way towards restoring your health. Even if you don’t have access to raw milk you should be able to find aged raw milk cheeses, high quality pastured eggs, liver, cod liver oil, etc. Soak your grains, eat high quality animal products, fermented vegetables and beverages, and in time your body may heal itself. My wife was diagnosed with an auto-immune disease soon after we got married eight years ago, and two children later is now not on any medication and hasn’t had a flare up in years.
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The traffic here has been pretty light, and it looks like David’s new mechanism may have discouraged a number of the regulars. I probably shouldn’t say this, but there really isn’t anything to stop you from making up a fake name ("Hugh Betcha") and setting up a free webmail account ("StateAgSpy99@hotmail.com") to register and post comments somewhat anonymously. Of course, then David will just have to modify the site again to require approval for everyone’s membership request before granting permission to post comments, and mine will probably be on the banned list… 🙂 (I’ll just change to "Don Napier" – he’ll never guess it was me…)
I do know of the Weston A Price Foundation (I stalk their ‘where to find raw milk’ section) and I’ve almost finished working my way through a book on fermentation.
With regards to my health I’ve had about a year of throwing myself a pity party and finally owned up to the fact that nobody is going to take care of me. If I want to be viable (wonderful term bandied about by my old Anthropology teacher) I’m going to have to be my own advocate and and take charge for my own health. Once again, because nobody is going to do it for me.
The whole raw milk debate fascinates me, the sheer mass of politicking, fear mongering, and misleading facts are just mind boggling. Perhaps my youth has aided me here. It hasn’t been that many years since I was doing my best to ignore the assaults of petty bullies, and I know that, while I’d like nothing more than to stand up on a soap-box and preach how ‘my view is right!’ (because of course I believe it is, that’s why it’s mine), that won’t do anything to sway people who are undecided, and even less to sway the anti-raw-milk adherents.
Really, with issues as volatile as this, where at the heart there is the promise of hard scientific evidence, the only recourse that you and I can take is to be as tolerant and generous as possible.
Come! Debate openly! I don’t believe, however, that any free-thinking American can deny another his or her right to feed themselves and their family as they see fit. You don’t have to think Raw Milk is amazing, you don’t have to buy in to ‘specious claims’ made by mothers, all that’s really needed is enough respect for one another that we are allowed to make our choices freely.
I’d also like to point out that I’m in no way against raw milk regulation. In fact I doubt I’d be eager to try some if there wasn’t any regulation. The very nature of the product leaves it much more vulnerable to pathogens if the cattle are not treated well. I read my history, I know what happened during the late 1800’s and early 1900’s and the very last thing anybody wants is a repeat of those times.
I guess you could call me some kind of hippie, I’d rather people educate themselves and make informed decisions, and if those informed decisions represent values that are contrary to my own beliefs then well, as long as you’re not going to beat me over the head or take away my freedoms I see no reason we can’t just agree to disagree.
step back and look around….thousands of gallons a day of the raw stuff…and in children no less!
Safe is as safe does…
Isn’t it amazing that the human race survived before factories and chemicals. Should I say man-made chemicals? Farmers farmed without dumping poisons on the crops, dairies survived without added hormones, antibiotics,etc. Cows lived longer lives. Livestock was healthier and had longer lives.
Knowledge is power, and it is refreshing to hear when others research and seek answers and taking a path that works for you and is not the norm, takes courage and strength.
"rather people educate themselves and make informed decisions, and if those informed decisions represent values that are contrary to my own beliefs then well, as long as you’re not going to beat me over the head or take away my freedoms I see no reason we can’t just agree to disagree. "
This would be ideal. Live and let live.
Because of the dramatic changes in my health by doing the opposite of what the experts claim we should do I have to conclude that they are either out right lying or dreadfully deceived.
The question then is how could I even have a normal discussion with the anti raw dairy forces that are actively trying to take away our right to CHOOSE raw dairy by any means?
If one considers the nefarious rampant plundering of main street America to save Wall Street and the banks while they tell us its for the good of main street how can we believe anything TPTB utter. Did these needy firm and banks employ any risk managers or accountants that are able to add or subtract?
These are truly dark days.
it’s up to individual ethics, morals and personal code of conduct to determine how one acts out here. not the handle they post under. for me, i post as hugh betcha, like my handle my web email has never changed either.
trolls are trolls under any name, shills are the same, it’s easy to identify both types by their content. if you’re still kinda green to using the web it is harder maybe, but unless you’re a sheep and believe everything you read you’ll gain experience in identifing the pond scum for what it is. in balance it actually helps one understand more about human nature then you may actually want to understand.
one thing i have learned is to ignore most of them and when i do fight back to hold no punches, no need for personal attacks (you smell bad) instead, attack personally (what you are saying doesn’t pass the smell test) there’s a big difference and trolls and shills (if they engage) always show their butts because they have an agenda that can only be fulfilled by standing firm to their propaganda and dogma.
i feel sorry for them but have no sympathy for their positions and efforts to force their will on everyone.
they need to be put in their place quickly and firmly and not allowed to drag free thinking folks down to their level. it does no good to try and honestly debate with them, they have no interest in such.
i’ll continue to be hugh betcha (it’s who i am) i’m in central/south jersey, i have fresh, rich, creamy, real jerseycow milk, real free range chicken and eggs. i’m a firm believer in civil disobedience against oppression, i’m too old to play games with trolls and shills, should the state/ gov’t shut me down i’ll consider living on one of their front lawns and do as much as possible to force them to support me since it’s their choice to enforce any "regulations" they impose on me. they need to be held personally accountable for their actions and it seems to me there are more and more folks willing to force their heavy hands to back off.
/end diatribe.
I am one of those weird people. I get the rolling eyes from people I am in contact with. It’s OK because almost 9 years ago I was diagnosed with cancer. After 3 failed radiation treatments my Dr wanted to send me for external beam. I knew this would be the end of me. I decided to take the path less travelled and go to a holistic doctor. We cleaned up my food and my body and I have never been healthier. I feel wonderful. I was killing myself with the the ADA recommended food pyramid.
We now eat organic, gluten free, raw milk, grass fed meats, free range eggs, flax and more. I never dreamed that I would live this life thinking it was only for radical hippies but it isn’t.
It’s been almost 3 years since my doctor told me that I needed to do the radiation or the cancer would spread. My markers are down and I am thriving.
It’s worth the effort and the rolling eyes. I say let me make my own choices. It’s still my body. The people making decisions for me before certainly weren’t in my best interest or conducive to healing.
To your health!
Decieved? Maybe they are. Could thier beliefs system be misguided? Or is it discrimination? I’ve no doubt that those who oppose raw dairy, feel the pro raw dairy people are misguided.
Different beliefs does not make one side right more so that the other. What becomes wrong is when another belief is forced upon others.
I don’t understand why they feel compelled to "save" anyone from themselves, especially when those "someones" voiced that they are making thier own informed choices. And the anti raw dairy keep voicing that the pro raw dairy people are decieved or blind to the potential contamination of raw dairy. Now what makes them say such things? Everyone knows that anything can become contaminated. Not rocket science. You have a bigger chance of becoming ill from the stores groundbeef. I doubt that anyone would knowingly drink raw dairy from the mega farms, even the small putrid dairies on the south side of Sacramento are toxic environments and no doubt the milk is contaminated. Not something I would recommend consuming, even after boiling.
You are what you eat. It you put toxins into your body, especially over a period of time, it will biuld up and the potential for damage is there. It is good to hear that healthy foods are changing for the better peoples health.
I just ran into a post by Teresa Nielsen Hayden about Virtual Panel Participation.
(I found it in a comment on "Five Thirty Eight – Electoral Projections Done right". –Wonderful, transparent site)
"Some things I know about moderating conversations in virtual space" is a list of 13 suggestions.
You may already know of this list, but I thought it was worth passing on.
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006036.html
This is a wonderful blog indeed. I check it daily. Feels calmer now; I’m grateful for the registration – but have to say I’ll miss the possibility of a dialogue. I’m just a dreamer at heart. If you don’t demonize, you won’t win. Right? Right?
Just finished the cow college/goat university teleseminars with Pete Kennedy & Tim Wightman. Very enlightening! FarmtoConsumer – What they are doing is changing the world, a little bit every day. They make me smarter, and bolder.
I keep looking at the photo David chose for this blog entry – is that my wrist strapped to a grenade?
-Blair
Most people most of the time don’t have the depth of knowledge, motivation, or perspective to find the truth and switch paradigms. Often it takes something bigger, like cancer, to make it happen. The sad thing is so many people are motivated to help people, yet because of their paradigm are causing much harm.
Des Moines gym
http://elitebodybootcampdesmoines.com/des-moines-gym/