Demonstrators yesterday in support of Evergreen Acres Goat Farm herdshare in San Jose.Herdshares have been sprouting like grass in a well-watered pasture out in California. No one knows exactly how many there are, but by some estimates, there are 65, or possibly even 100 or more.
As in many states, California has no explicit rules regarding herdshares–in other words, they’re not illegal. Because the herdshares have been allowed to sprout unimpeded, it was thought California’s Department of Food and Agriculture was taking a hands-off approach…until now.
Yesterday, law enforcement and regulatory representatives met with two herdshare operators in San Jose, owners of the last remaining farm in San Jose city limits, and gave them a heavy dose of intimidation. Down in the lobby of the office of the Santa Clara County District Attorney, at least 20 herdshare members and supporters demonstrated, waving placards in support of their raw milk producer (see photo above).
The herdshare operators, Mike and Jane Hulme, owners of Evergreen Acres Goat Farm, have been running their herdshare for six years, during which time it’s grown to nearly 200 full and partial participants. “It was finally at break-even,” Mike Hulme told me. He and his wife tend to about 50 goats, with as many as 30 currently milking. They also breed goats, and have in the past run the farm as a petting zoo.
In late May, the Hulmes received a cease-and-desist letter from the Santa Clara County district attorney’s office. Yesterday, they met with an assistant district attorny, Nahal Irwani-Sani, and via conference call with a representative of the California Department of Food and Agriculture, Scarlett Treviso, of the Milk and Dairy Food Safety division.
There were the threats–talk of a possible fine of $10,000 and a year in jail for violating California’s dairy laws. They said the herdshare wouldn’t be allowed even if the shareholders milked the goats themselves. They refused to allow Pete Kennedy of the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund to participate via conference call because he isn’t licensed to practice in California.
Yeah, what a bunch of tough guys with a couple of struggling farmers unable to hire the $500-an-hour lawyers places like Kellogg and Dole bring to the table. “They basically said, ‘You need to get a dairy license or go to jail,” Mike Hulmes said afterwards. In the meantime, the couple is abiding by the cease-and-desist, and unable to provide herdshare members, who come from around the Bay Area, with milk at the height of milk production.
Mike Hulme said the couple isn’t interested in having a full-scale dairy production business, and making the investment of many thousands of dollars in equipment and buildings that would be necessary (and likely wouldn’t even get city approval) to obtain a license. “Milk is part of what we do, breeding is part of what we do.”
But boarding and milking the goats for herdshare owners provides the ongoing cash flow essential for maintaining the farm.
Mike Hulme expects to legally challenge the cease-and-desist, but isn’t sure exactly what form the challenge will take. A lot depends on the support he receives from the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund, which is still to be determined.
He feels the herdshare was discovered by authorities because it was listed on the Real Milk web site. Since the farm’s problems with state authorities became known, he says he’s received about 100 emails from people around the state who say they are obtaining milk via herdshares or running herdshares themselves.
It’s easy for me to say, but I hope the Hulmes stand up to the authoritarian busybodies at CDFA (and their public prosecutor friends). If they do, they will need lots of support from California consumers who value food rights–support in the form of demonstrations and donations.
It may be difficult to appreciate, but the persistent warfare being waged against food producers serving private organizations of consumers is actually a sign of desperation by the authorities. The fact that California has many dozens of herdshares is just one indication of the surging demand for nutrient-dense food. The success being achieved by producers in Washington and producers in Idaho is further evidence.
Consumers are voting with their pocket books. But they must continue to fight tooth-and-nail in other ways to ward off the forces of control and repression. The prosecutors and regulators want to make examples of people like the Hulmes in San Jose, and try scare off other producers and consumers.
But a surge of public support could keep that from happening. The Santa Clara County District Attorney is an elected office. Residents might want to let Jeffrey Rosen, the DA, know this case isn’t “the breath of fresh air” he promised in his campaign last year. His office’s phone is (408) 299-7400.
***
I, for one, think the discussion about the Raw Milk Institute, accusations and invective included, has been healthy. Get everything out on the table.
Mark McAfee captured my motivation for becoming involved: “What I saw time and time again was scattered tattered rules and regulations or no regulations at all. I saw consumers begging for delicious safe raw milk. I saw farmers doing a great job of producing raw milk and I saw farmers doing a horrible job of producing raw milk. I also saw that the FDA PMO NCIMS and CAFO FOOD Inc forces absolutley rejoicing in tne raw milk mess and lack of cohesion. I even saw Whole Foods Stores betray OPDC and Claravale and the Family Cow in Pennsylvania kicking us out of the store (with Marler’s help I might add) becuase there were no national standards for raw milk and two kids had gotten sick from Retail Raw Milk in Conneticut.”
He is correct that the authorities have been “rejoicing” in the lack of organization from supporters of raw milk and other nutrient-dense foods. That lack of organization makes the natural-born bullies who govern us ever more inclined to take out their anger and hostility on defenseless people like Mike and Jane Hulme and the many others I have written about here.
I agree that there is a danger RAWMI could become another Big-Ag-government-sanctioned enforcer. I’m hoping that RAWMI will be a different kind of organization than we have seen up till now in the world of sustainable farming. One that finds ways to take account of all the different forms of production and distribution that have come into play as the raw dairy market has taken shape.
As milk farmer suggests, I think we should put our visions of demons aside for the time being, and let this thing take shape. Sylvia makes an excellent point: “It is ok for there to be disagreements, it is not ok when people are put down for not agreeing. That puts you in the same category as the one who said it was russian roulette to drink raw milk.”
Thank you for writing about the California raw milk cow share and goat share situation. In my opinion, this should be a FTCLDF line in the sand for constitutional rights. Ownership is being threatened and that is something we owe to ourselves as Americans to defend.
I have had several long talks with Mike Hulme. They are great people and I want very much for them to find a way forward. I have met with at least 20 other cow share operators near Chico CA 8 weeks ago. Cow share Goat shares are a big movement in CA and CDFA is being downright belligerent. Scarlet Traveso is nothing short of a NAZI and I would say that to her face. She is a police loving policy robot and has no capacity to think or feel as a human.
Someday someplace….she will meet the Ghosts of Raw Milk past-present & future and she will come to Jesus on her knees. She refuses to become educated about the subject that she oppresses and judges. She refuses to hear the begging blight of those that she crushes. She refuses to listen to why people need raw milk!!! She refuses to look at the data and see that people are not getting sick from these small cow and goat share operations.
I stand with all of the Cow Share and Goat Share operators in CA and would strongly suggest that they unify politically and go to Sacramento and get one of their representatives to hold hearings on CDFA and this subject. The last time this happend, CDFA refused to attend the hearings ( Dean Florez ) and the people spoke in a profound vacume. RAW MILK won that round for sure and politically the CA RAW MILK terrain changed.
On the Nevada Raw Milk issue. There are some very good well connected people there that have identified two excellent green pasture based ( with plenty of water ) locations for a small raw milk dairy ( less than 30 cows to start ). I am assisting in this effort and spent 3 hours on a radio talk show last week answering questions from callers and making the case for the "raw milk desert" in Nevada and its 3 million parched citizens.
Nevada has a full set of old AAMMC Certified Raw Milk Laws still on the books. The group I am working with has the political connections and commitments to establish a local county medical milk commission and thereby access those certified raw milk laws etc….
We are working hard to get this done…it is just a matter of time. AND….NO,… OPDC is not involved in the Nevada venture…I was asked to assist and I am working as a consultant to assist and shorten the learning curve on the million details of a raw milk dairy startup.
All the best,
Mark
Not so! Regulators may find temporary satisfaction in pushing around little guys when the opportunity arises, but they know they cant get to the vast majority of them, and to an authoritarian bully that is just plain maddening. The strength of raw milk supporters comes really from their disorganization.
Many, many raw milk drinkers (perhaps even a substantial majority) exist in decentralized cells, taking orders from nobody, working out their food supplies under the radar in countless, scattered, personal arrangements. That fact is nothing but frightening to the pushers of central-control. Regulation is, remember, a big-army force, and as any general knows who is embroiled in any one of Americas endless impossible-to-win wars, big armies cannot defeat a decentralized enemy. Only when the rabbit leaves the briars does he become a viable target.
Now we see a business model (predictably) pushing its way forward to become the presumed face of the raw milk movement (whatever you may think that is), all the while of course urging the rabbits to come out and join them. Thats the way of America, and if history repeats itself (it always does) raw milk business will expand, significant distribution channels (and profit streams) will be created, and the regulators will jump on them like wild dogs. But big business is like the Platte rivera mile wide and an inch deep, and no matter what its superficial successes, the movements life force will live not out front in the business world, but quietly in the bushes, in countless individuals, families, neighbors, and loose community affiliations (represented nicely by the photo accompanying Davids post), rarely or never bubbling to the surface. While business interests rock and roll, battle the regulators, and dance for the media, it will be the rabbits who quietly enjoy constancy and stability, and more important, the beautiful fruits of human relationship, and thus truly sustain the movement.
Business may be the face of this movement, but it will never be the heart.
Your comments resonate with all the herdshare supporters–and SMALL dairy customers– out here. Thank you. It is always good to read your excellent posts.
Those are Davids words not mine. I said something a little different.
"What I saw time and time again was scattered tattered rules and regulations or no regulations at all. I saw consumers begging for delicious safe raw milk. I saw farmers doing a great job of producing raw milk and I saw farmers doing a horrible job of producing raw milk. I also saw that the FDA PMO NCIMS and CAFO FOOD Inc forces absolutley rejoicing in tne raw milk mess and lack of cohesion. I even saw Whole Foods Stores betray OPDC and Claravale and the Family Cow in Pennsylvania kicking us out of the store (with Marler's help I might add) becuase there were no national standards for raw milk and two kids had gotten sick from Retail Raw Milk in Conneticut."
I have seen time and time again, FOOD Inc and the FDA PMO CAFO market supporters "rejoicing and celebrating" in the scattered national dissarray of the current paradigm of raw milk. I also have seen the FDA and FOOD INC scared half insane by raw milk moms that are aligned against the FOOD Inc Lies and dead foods.
The anti raw milk forces fear any alliances, cooperation, standards, truth telling, hearings, positive media coverage, between the raw milk producers and consumers. To have coordinated alliances, standards, truth telling, hearings, positive media coverage with raw milk equals a loss of market share for their Dead PMO milk and its failing market.
This dialogue has been reduced to those that want to change America for all Americans…..and those that want to stay status quo and only feed their few local friends.
America can not be great if it is malnourished obese, diabetic, asthmatic with Crohns,IBS, Lactose intolerance, Autism, ADHD, weak bones and teeth. People that live in the cities far removed from a 6 cow share raw milk connection must be able to feed their children. Raw Milk is not an elitist connection for a priviledged few that know someone and know where to connect at midnight on some back street. Or know the password to whisper at some unknown rendezvous place.
How about this….
We all work togther to feed all Americans. We need all the delicious safe raw milk we can get. Local with three cows and regional sources with hundreds of cows…all raw, all pastured, all safe, all delicious.
We must all be at the raw milk table. We are all part of the Platte RAW MILK River….
This blog makes people brave and loose with words…if we all sat down for dinner we would never speak this way to each other.
Please….we must feed America…we are the nutritious truth and the wholesome way. Lets positively join ranks in this mission. We each have our essential role to play in the strength of this nutritional civil rights uprising.
Mark
Must you continue to deride the majority of raw milk producers in this country. No one I know is 'connecting on a back street at midnight" Your bullshit shovel is large. And I know I can speak for most small raw milk producers when I say they aren't feeding only their 'friends'…although after the connection is made friendship is inevitable (and what you belittle is actually the strength of the direct to consumer marketing relationship). Must you really stretch the truth, and paint a false picture, to justify your misguided efforts to 'organize'?
Dave is right on the money….and all of your 'business trips' and jaunts around the country still haven't clued you into what the raw milk community is all about. You are the one that is out of touch. Most raw milk producers don't have any desire to change the entire world…but feel strongly that by changing their own community and allowing the next community over to change on it's own, is a more prudent way to create significant and meaningful change…without the restrictions of government or regulatory agencies (public OR private). It's more stable and secure and FREE. Most raw milk producers are content with just enough, and aren't trying to fill their fathers shoes by trying to do more.
The scattered raw milk delivery system is better. It creates a web that is not easily broken, deciphered or eliminated. What you propose can be swiftly quashed, if the government gets a hold of your list of members (remember the NAIS database). Your syndicate (if even slightly successful) is a tremendous threat to the conventional milk system because it's goal is it's elimination. The way it stands now raw milk is a 'inconvenience' to big Dairy, as it allows for both milks to exist…and gives the consumer a CHOICE. Trying to take the ball away from them is a STUPID idea…..allowing them to play with their ball, while you play with yours is smarter. Coexistence. It's about survival…and if your efforts to organize raw milk producers under your umbrella is successful I feel it will lead to even MORE persecution from the Big Dairy controlled authorities.
Mark….if you haven't noticed we ARE feeding America. Even in states where raw milk is illegal those that WANT it can get it. Most of us ARE joined together….we reject your attempt to dictate the future of raw milk, and do not share your vision of a single unifying certification agency.
"Raw Milk is not an elitist connection for a priviledged few that know someone and know where to connect at midnight on some back street."
WTF? Yeah, Mark, the privileged few who bothered to read and research and learn. The few elitist folks who didn't make a face at the word "unpasteurized" and call the people drinking it fools before they'd done their homework.
I have long admired you but lately you are really pushing me away. I think reading "Poisoned" poisoned you. Over these last few weeks you're sounding like the authoritarian, overbearing, never-wrong, bully lawyer I don't care for. If you win by being just like him, you don't win at all.
How about this: how about you stop the negative propaganda against the very people who made real milk the desirable beverage it is? How about recognizing these unsung heroes for their role in getting you where you are today? Perhaps in your travels you have also seen small farms doing raw milk right for no other reason than it was the right thing to do? Hardly "status quo" and hardly just feeding "their few local friends." Where do you think those raw milk moms came from? Those folks are feeding their communities and there is nothing wrong, shameful, or elitist about that. Please stop it with the "black market" and "back alley" rhetoric. Please stop the smear campaign against the grass-roots people who brought us all raw milk to begin with, "romantic" as it is (that unhelpful comment was John M.). Try to say something positive about rawmi without saying something negative about everyone else who was in the business before rawmi came to save it from itself.
I have already said that I am neither for nor against rawmi–I want to know what it is before formulating an opinion one way or the other. Is that okay?
You say, we teach, teach, teach. Tell me, how do we teach the teachers?
When I read Mark's first comment, I thought, Oh good! the old Mark is back! and I was glad. Then I read his second comment and was pissed off all over again with that divisive "back alleys and midnight deliveries" crap. Anyone comes to my house for milk later than 7pm, I get downright annoyed… evenings are MINE; and I for one positively am not running around at midnight looking to unload my milk; I'd pour it out on the pastures as fertilizer first!
Stop the fear-mongering comments, Mark… you're beginning to sound like Bill A.
Dave M and milk farmer have it right with their excellent comments.
We are both making America better and feeding thankful and healthy people.
Do not shoot the soldier that stands and fights next to you.
I will TEACH TEACH TEACH and I hope you do also.
Enough said.
It is his way of coping with the FDA . . . . and he wants all raw milk producers to get behind him by being certified with RAWMI.
He wants to be as legitimate as those big CAFO "Certified Organic Dairies" in Colorado so he can get his market share back again. . . . through Whole Foods, etc.
He wants all of us small producers to get big like him (and pay all the fees to get certified, etc.) or get out.
He is just like the rest of Big Ag . . . . sorry Mark . . . .But INDEPENDENT small farmers who are into creating quality local dairy, produce, etc. . . . do not want to be certified . . . . ever.
We abide by State license rules . . . and our customers certify our products. Third parties never enter into the equation for most of us. Most of them charge over $500.00 or more per year to nose around our farms . . . .and give questionable advice (because most of these certifiers do not farm).
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
This phrase:
"…and I will feed 60,000 gracious and thankful people with delicious safe raw milk each week legally from 400 stores."
tells us more about his true motivations than any of his feel-good rhetoric will.
And in regards to your soldier analogy….if you'd act like one of the troops, instead of thinking you're the General, than maybe you would be accepted as one in the army. Control your ego, and stop trying to 'save us from ourselves'.
Any raw milk farmer worth his (or her) salt teaches…..but like Sophie so astutely pointed out…how do we teach the teacher (especially one who is so arrogantly stubborn that they refuse to hear).
Violet is right…your mindset is that of Big Ag…sure you have a different product, and feed your cows differently….but when it comes down to it YOU are the threat to the small farmer, the majority of the the raw milk community in this country…at least if you continue in this vain way.
Seems as if Bill just can't keep his big mouth shut.
The following is part of an e-mail he sent out to 255 – yes, 255 – people today:
"Unfortunately, I am getting this same reaction as being the "Nazi" — in this case from some people from Wisconsin! This "Lola Granola" character on David Gumpert's blog is some kind of nutjob black-helicopter-chaser, who opposed the raw milk bill last year, and keeps attacking me and Mark McAfee suggesting we are in some kind of conspiracy to impose Codex Alimentarius and SB510 on the raw milk movement. I think she has some paranoia issues."
Thank you so much for those kind words, Bill. I hope you are having a lovely day, too.
Maybe there are 2 raw milks, but not the common definition here. For example, in WI, there are those who sell to processors and do incidental sales on the side (is that black market?). The major distinction that is emerging relates to direct sales vs. a more expanded market for raw milk. It's not clear to me which is safer (muddied by the fact that raw milk proponents won't talk about food safety science, and almost always change the subject to politics and conspiracy theories). It seems obvious that anyone selling raw milk, even if through a herdshare, should have a food safety plan to protect their customers, or so-called owners that never touch the milking animals, aka, the people coming to the farm to pick-up their raw milk, or have it delivered.
I think this table is a bit out of date, but shows the distribution of recent reported outbreaks by farm type. As Mary Martin might say, it is critically important to study these outbreaks and learn from them:
http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011-ALL-dairy-through-May-15-4.pdf
MW
http://westonapricepasadena.blogspot.com/
https://sites.google.com/site/caltechnetimpact/
Teach Teach Teach!!!
Mark
The chart you provided is essential to appreciating the challenge at hand.
Thank you for making my case entirely.
I doubt I made your case entirely. We should talk offline with Dr. Berge about it.
MW
I was very impressed by the story of the record breaking Raw Milk Cats in their Race Across America. Sorry I did not get to Annapolis in time to see / photograph the Raw Milk Cats cross the finish line. However I did see other teams that came in later which made me appreciate all the more what the Raw Milk Cats accomplished. So today I relayed the story to a group of agronomists meeting near by in Chesapeake Beach, Maryland while delivering a presentation entitled Grass to the Glass: Raw Milk and Informed Consumer Choice.
https://www.agronomy.org/membership/branches/northeastern
"Assume you all know that the Tester amendment is a moot point unless you plan to be a subsistence farmer."
Now do you all know why I am fighting to kick all of those that voted for this bill out. They want to destroy the local food movement of which many small farms are currently just starting to make a profit and making a living at this. We are beginning to make a difference and taking away a greater portion of the food market and this scares the heck out of Big Ag who use our own elected officials to protect thier market through billis because they own K Street in DC (S510 was most definitely written with the help of professional Big Ag lobbyists) . . . . and give all those big election contributions.
The sad thing is so many of these elected officials were liberal democrats. If anyone wants the full list of Senators and Congressmen/women who voted for this bill . . . . please contact me offline at: violetjwillis@yahoo.com. Some of them have been voted out already in the 2010 election but most of them are still there. They need to go in 2012
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
The USDA needs to go back to what it was originally founded to do . . . AG research . . . not funding rural libraries or firehouses . . . or going to Chile to help salmon farmers there so we can have cheaper fish at Red Lobster at the expense of our own fish farms here in the US. . . . Many of them have gone out of business here in Maine in the last decade or so.
The FDA needs to scrutinize imports from the third world more closely and look at the health problems caused by Big Ag overprocessed foods (ever wonder why when we all quit smoking . . . .everyone got fatter and sicker . . . . ) If I see anymore drug commercials on TV with all the side effects verbalized . . . . I think I will scream. The side effects for most of these drugs seem worse than the problem the drug is treating. If these side effects are real then why are these drugs being approved?
Much better to live with high blood pressure, cholesterol, erectile dysfunction and depression than to have your liver and kidneys fail, stroke, heart attack, and commit suicide among other horrible health ordeals as a side effect. But then the FDA, etc. . . says that drinking raw milk is like Russian Roulette with your health . . . . GIVE ME A BREAK! It's okay to take big Pharma drugs with all the risks but not drink raw milk. Seriously . . . . the FDA needs to have much of their funding cut off if this is the logic they have.
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
I wrote a thoughtful response to you, and lost the post (this blog has serious problems with being able to post). I'll try to call you because I'm interested in your concerns. More likely than not, if you met a food safety person, you'd find they are not a Nazi, Jihaad, or general jerk. More likely than not, raw milk farmers are not luddites, stupid, or going to shoot me.
MW
I am starting to agree with Violet on many many things (I used to be an ardent, lifelong Democrat), but especially about all these drugs that FDA approves, then recalls, then releases again as long as Big Pharma lists all side effects… WTH??? Statins especially horrify me, the way doctors hand prescriptions around like candy: Cholesterol's a little high… here, take this statin (which, unfortunately, may well cause you far more problems than high cholesterol ever will, except I don't believe that it will, and besides I need you to keep coming back in my office every year to renew your prescriptions so I can make a living."
I don't think that food safety personnel are Nazis, etc, any more than I'm going to shoot them (difficult, since I don't even have a gun), and most raw milk farmers I know are people with a college degree or even changing careers altogether–ie, former white collar workers who've decided that the "American Way of Life" fast-track career, etc, really is not the best way to live and/or raise families.
I feel so lucky to have some sources nearby, both goats and cows.
But I will reiterate that in nearly all my local food dealings i pay cash only. It seems terrible to be that distrustful of my government, but that is how it is.
Off to drink a glass of lovely raw milk with my breakfast….
"If we do not have those revenues…it means that food inspection might be compromised."
http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/06/obama-blasts-gop-for-food-safety-budget-cuts-1/
Milky Way is correct in describing the severe limitations of the Tester Amendment. That's why many of us were so opposed to the FSMA, even with it. But advocating formal food safety plans for herdshares is mixing apples and oranges–herdshares are private organizations, outside the public regulatory structure, a fact the regulators are increasingly trying to fudge, including now in San Jose. Sure, food safety plans might be a good idea, but that's up to the shareholders, not the government.
David
Now we know and understand the bogus nature of much of the CDC data…but I'll bet Mark will use just that to justify his 'unfriendly takeover' of raw milk. Throw out the cheese…and the incidents with zero affected and that list gets much smaller. Funny to note also how that list includes mostly above board and legal raw producers….kind of quashes the black market/midnight fear lie that Mark needs us to believe. This thing smells bad, and the more I read and hear the more it's obvious to me that Mark is going to sell out the raw milk community to the highest bidder. He is not worthy of trust.
Will Mark really expect us to believe that raw milk can be produced with zero incidences….that is the party line of the dead food/germ theory crowd.
The best future for raw milk is the herdshare….for many, many reasons. That is why the work that Pete K is doing with the LDF, is THE most important work being done for raw milk. Industrial factory farms shipping truckloads to supermarket shelves is a step backwards.
Is the RAWMI thing supposed to be voluntary or mandatory?
One more time: Is the RAWMI thing supposed to be voluntary or mandatory?
I'm asking because if it is voluntary, but used like the Underwriters Labs, then it might be interesting to see how it pans out. If someone wanted to purchase milk that comes from OPDC, and knew that the RAWMI mark meant that certain things had been done, so be it. If it is a VOLUNTARY mark that X number of tests, Y amount of grazing days, and Z maximums of grain, then it is just another way of knowing what is in the stuff.
However, if it is designed to be mandatory, or to marginalize those that do not wish to participate in the program, then it sounds like an awful idea.
Keep in mind that this is from a drinker – not a milk farmer. As someone that just drinks it, I would hate to see my farmer being pushed out of business because of someone's zeal – nor would I want to see him attempting to live up to a standard that is being set in a different state, with a different climate, different grass, different amount of cows, etc. That way madness lies.
On the other hand, if it is there as a GUIDE – something for a potential farmer to aspire to, withinn the confines of the variables of environments – then it could be a very cool way to educate farmers and consumers.
So, I ask again: Is this supposed to be voluntary or mandatory?
Insurance, inspection, association fees. Just ways to make other people money. If you want to find out what really goes on, know your farmer or do it yourself. It's not elitist, it's real.
RAWMI is 100% volentary.
I am asking and inviting all of the micro-producers or cow or goat share producers of RAW MILK that post here at TCP to please send me your comments and imputs on how you keep your raw milk safe and pathogen free. I am working on some final touches for the directors first conference call and I want to make sure that I have all the data and imput that is possible. I know that many of you have been safely producing raw milk for years longer than I have and your comments and advice is important. I am serious and I deeply value your thoughts on this subject.
Please send your email comments to me at this address:
http://www.mark@organicpastures.com
Leading up to this plan, I have already spoken with or consulted with Dr. Ron Hull, Dr. Ted Beals, Tim Wightman, Dr. Cat Berge DVM PhD, Mike Schmidt, Dr. Paul Fleiss ( president of AAMMC ), Steuves brothers ( Alta Dena ) reviewed NASA, FDA and USDA government HACCP standards, CDFA standards, Penn State standards, WA state standards, all other state standards for raw milk, screened all of the AAMMC standards and history, National Food Processors Standards for HACCP, reviewed the RAMP and OPDC history and data, and consulted many others.
Please contribute so that others ( small or large alike ) may produce safe raw milk like you do.
Mark
As a way to show that certain steps have been taken in the production of the milk, having the RAWMI thing is not neccessarily a bad thing. It is information, and I am of the personal opinion that you can never have too much information. What a person does with the information is often a different story entirely, but it is alawys a good thing to have it there.
It sounds like RAWMI is going to do for raw milk, what Certified Organic did for other foods – offer an option for people to use. This is not to say that Certified Organic is the end-all of vegetables, nor will RAWMI be the end-all for raw milk (I hope, anyway). It sounds like it will be a way to evaluate the product, just like all the other standards and certifications and marks and evaluations are.
Mark, thank you for the answer. I hope that having a straight answer will help keep things nice and cool in here. As someone that is adamantly about CHOICE in all things, I eagerly await the final publication of your work.
You made an absolutely beautiful point with this: …if we all sat down for dinner we would never speak this way to each other.
It is indeed face-to-face contact that keeps us polite, concerned, and frankly, loving. Face-to-face is what we were designed to do, and to be. Notably, the desire for human-scale, face-to-face contact is half the reason for the growth in small-farm, local food arrangements (the other half being quality concerns). Local food affiliations are therefore natural and wonderful; their growth is predictable given the endless push by big business and big government to prevent real, honest, human contact, and to substitute themselves for it.
Also notably, face-to-face human relationship is the very best way to guarantee quality—to, as Mary says, keep the s___ out of the milk. Is it a perfect system? Of course not. But it is far more perfect than the third-party-control method, which inevitably leads to the promotion of most anything at all that makes money. (That is precisely why our elephantine food safety bureaucracy merely stands by and watches as, for example, processed sugars invade every corner of our diet and cause widespread illness in the form of insulin resistance and frank diabetes.)
At this point in our history there is almost nobody left who has experienced true dependence on a neighbor, or been truly responsible for a neighbor. So we should not be surprised that a majority can envision no other partners in life but regulators, bureaucrats, and central controllers. MWs comment therefore, implying that the market, not government, is driving an expectation that producers should all follow a set of third-party rules, is at best an obfuscation. Hardly anyone anymore possesses a frame of reference that allows any other vision. (Not to mention that the market is already running full tilt from government inspectors and out of control tort lawyers.)
Lastly, there is the question of science, which has always been limited by paradigmatic thinking, and therefore subject to error not so much by the discovery of inaccurate results in designed experiments, but by an inability to ask the right questions. The big machines cannot escape the paradigm, but individuals surely can.
MW, I personally do not adhere to the germ theory, and believe that the environmental, soil, and food sanitizing that the germ theory promotes are harmful to my health. What am I to do about that? Rearrange my thinking?
I really would like to know what were the things about these farms that you were concerned/scared about.We should not be waiting for the rawmi to become reality before we begin to educate each other about the conditions we would like to find on the farms that produce our food.Others have brought up the frightening conditions on some farms.The farmers need feedback about what the consumers would like to see.Give me some concrete examples of practices on the farm that concern you.Most of the farmers will respond very positively to input from consumers.
We deliver to individual homes,CSAs,schools and even distribute food on the sidewalk in front of homes in the city.There is nothing secret or hidden about this.There is no "law" against it.Let's stop with the derogatory terms and start to talk specifically about the practices that you think need to be changed.
One of the first things I would say is that the cows should be moved onto fresh grass as often as possible. This is important not just for good pasture managament (as Joel Salatin would preach) but in our case of raw milk, to keep the cows in a clean green enviroment.
It is often pointed out by opponents of raw milk that when milk is secreted by a healthy mammary gland, it is virtually sterile (which is true), and that subsequent "contamination" comes as the milk moves down the teat canal and into the enviroment.
With this understanding, we now realize that the enviroment is critical, for both the milk harvest and for the composition of the few bacteria that colonize the teat canal.
So in a nutshell: Is the cows enviroment full of s**t or is it green? (excuse my French…)
Bill, I'm asking John M… not necessary to answer for him, thanks.
Dave, how do you define "germ theory?" Are you talking specifically about foodborne pathogens, or more generally about all infectious diseases? Are you saying that if a soldier was shot, there is no such thing as "germs" or infection that should be treated? If a mosquito transmits the maleria parasite into someone's bloodstream and the person develops an illness, does that mean the soil/environment was at fault? The anti-germ theory mantra makes no sense to me…would be glad to hear more from you to explain this concept. Moreover, if there are no germs and everything is natural, are you suggesting those that get sick should just die? Check out this book, and count the number of deaths from germs…
http://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Beauty-Memorial-Photography-America/dp/0942642325
MW
The above article includes a quote from the editor of the British Food Journal who states, A common misconception is that science and research are about facts.
I think the editors observation is more or less correct, which begs the question, what is science and research really about in todays world?
I believe Barry Whites statement is applicable and one which many of us can all relate to When I saw corruption, I was forced to find truth on my own. I couldn't swallow the hypocrisy.
The above isis article also states, The toxic strain O157:H7 emerged in the United States during the 1980s, and has since caused illness and death globally. Ten years ago, Mae-Wan Ho argued that genetic engineering may have contributed to the rapid evolution of E. coli 0157:H7, which has many genetic differences compared to the common harmless E. coli strain.
E. coli O104:H4 also contains an array of antibiotic resistance genes conferring resistance to ampicillin amoxicillin/clavulanic acid, piperacillin/sulbactam, apiperacillin/tazobactam, cefuroxim, cefuroxim-zxetil, cefoxitin, cefotaxim, cetfazidim, streptomycin, nalidixinsure, tetracyclin, trimethoprim and sulfamethoxazol, exceeding the numerous resistance genes found in previous lethal outbreaks. The antibiotics are predominantly available in medical applications. The convergence of multiple antibiotic resistance genes and novel toxins suggest that the lethal bacteria originated in a hospital or hospitals.
Is raw milk indeed the threat to our health as some would have us believe, or is it invasive toxic medicine and/or harebrained scientific schemes?
Will standards be able to mitigate the harmful effects of pervasive technologies used in this war against various organisms and pests?
I have my doubts, since most of us are preoccupied with controlling an organism that cannot be controlled and will always be one step ahead of us.
MW
I cant speak for Dave and I am certain he has sound reasons for his statement; however my issue with the germ theory is the destructive methodology it has spawned and although somewhat relevant it leaves us with many unanswered questions.
Ken Conrad
What will they charge her for, concealing a dangerous weapon.
Ken Conrad
A cornerstone of the Germ theory of disease is that we can divide micro-organisms into those that are disease causing and those that are not.Exposure to a pathogen must be avoided or illness will follow.Obviously this is not true.Biological context determines whether a particular micro-organism is considered a pathogen or not.And even then,is the micro-organism simply benefiting from an abundance of nutrients because something has upset the normal balance in the system?Isn't the answer to this imbalance to restore balance.Killing the organism that is labeled as a pathogen is not a very effective way to restore balance.There is usually a lot of unintended damage done that further upsets the balance we wish to restore.The Germ Theory of disease is far too simple.We need to look at the system as a whole.Luckily for us the body often manages to restore balance in spite of our attempts to "treat" the disease.If we seek to understand how the system maintains this balance ,then we will understand how to best assist the body in healing itself.
Im sure we can agree that all microorganisms are in continuous competition for survival, both against each other and against indigenous (host) immune systems. The question is what do we make of that competition?
I believe this: Healthy competitive balance prevents unilateral proliferation of a single organism. Imbalance, on the other hand, allows unilateral proliferation. Disease is the consequence of unilateral proliferation; the result of subsequent host/bacterium interplay. Thus to me the presence of health or disease is determined by the relative balance between competing systems, and not, as germ theory posits, mere pathogen exposure. (Why, for example, do different hosts handle bacterial exposure differently if a pathogen is, well, pathogenic?)
The practical application of germ theoryof believing in, as you say, death from germshas caused us to ignore the biologic context of competing systems. So we blithely use antibacterial soaps, drink chlorinated water, employ prophylactic antibiotics and broad spectrum antibiotics on the farm and in our own bodies. In so doing we increase, not decrease, disease potential both by predisposing hosts to acute infection, and from the greater environmental perspective, inducing bacterial pleomorphism and mutation (which further challenge the adaptability of host systems).
As far as treating acute illness, I am not opposed to judicious use of antibiotics, especially given our current, almost aggressively poor understanding of biologic context (which seriously limits our treatment tools). But I strongly suspect that if we were better at identifying imbalance factors, we could employ much more humane, much more effective, and far less dangerous therapies that, as miguel says, heal by restoring balance. Certainly now we ought to be able to recognize that our current paradigm and practice is causing long term trouble.
Some one decides to try drinking raw milk. How will they know if their gut health is balanced enough to handle a pathogen if it is in the milk?
Three things must happen for illness to occur.
There must be a pathogen present and it must be a virulent form of that pathogen
There must be a load of those pathogens present in high enough numbers to trigger ilness
There must be a host that is susespible to the pathogen ( weak immune system )
If those three stars fail to align….no illness. This means that if a person takes baby steps and drinks small amounts of raw milk or fermented raw milk Kefir, immunity is imparted to the potential host and the host will build immunity to the biodiversity present in the raw milk.
Like any biological system, adjustment and an evolution to a new bacterial sherrif in town takes time. Peer Borks work in EU showed this and he won a the Microsoft Science award in 2008 for his discovery that the first bacteria to colonize an area of the gut, tend to dominate and defend their positions. So be careful what you put in first….it tends to dominate and stick arround.
Hence the origins of our horrible childhood health situation….C-sections, no breast feeding, sterile baby foods, preservatives, antibiotic abuse by doctors, lack of biodiversity in the diet….bingo. You have America 2011.
You have moms going crazy for Safe Raw Milk ( with its oligosacharide sugars and 100 diverse good bacteria ) to rebuild gut flora…which is the seat of the healthy immune system.
Mark
Suppose someone drinks raw milk and follows it with a gulp of chlorinated water such as swimming pool water.As the chlorinated water travels through the digestive system it will do two things.It will kill or cause the protective lactic acid bacteria to become dormant(stop reproducing),and it will burn the very sensitive gut lining.It will also tip the balance in favor of those opportunistic bacteria that possess some resistance to chlorine or acid conditions.Now ,with the system thrown out of balance by the chlorine some bacteria will proliferate.Someone who believes in the germ theory might say that a germ contaminating the raw milk is the cause of the illness.I would doubt that the milk caused the illness unless it can be shown that the milk was contaminated with some chemical sanitizer that would do as the chlorinated swimming pool water would do.Lactic acid bacteria in milk will usually prevent the proliferation of the opportunistic bacteria.They are called opportunistic because they proliferate only in the absence of the systemic controlling lactic acid bacteria.In our guts lactic acid bacteria are the bacteria that normally dominate and so control the growth rate of the opportunistic bacteria and maintain the healthy balance in the system.It is of little importance which type of opportunistic bacteria proliferates after the balance is lost other than that the type may indicate what the toxin was that caused the imbalance to begin with.Obviously the bacteria that survive and proliferate are the ones that have some resistance to the toxin in this example, chlorine.
A weak immune system is one in which the normally dominating lactic acid bacteria are not present in sufficient numbers to dominate the system.Think of a healthy lawn.The grass represents the lactic acid bacteria in the system.The "weeds" represent the opportunistic bacteria.Even in a healthy lawn a few of these herbs can be found,but they are not doing very well because the competition from the grass keeps them in check.A well established stand of grass keeps the other plants in check and creates a stable system.The balance here is easily maintained unless I put something on the lawn that kills the grass.Then the other herbs will quickly spread into the spot cleared by the grass killer and the balance will be lost.The herbs are the first stage of the succession of plants that will eventually give way to a climax system of grass in which stability is restored to the system.It takes a certain amount of work to maintain this system such as mowing or grazing.Otherwise succession will continue till you have the climax system that you find in the wilderness areas in your climate.
Interesting that you mention oligosacharides.
There are numerous "sugar-like" amino acids in the final chain of Kappa-Casein. These are the water soluable portion of casein, which enables milk protein to exist in a colloidal solution (rather than as a solid, aka cheese)
Chymosin (the primary enzyme in rennet) is very specific to Kappa-Casein. When you coagulate milk with rennet, it cleaves off this portion of Kappa-Casein, causing the milk protein to flocculate and form a curd.
Anyways, a little milk chemistry lesson for today.
To have a realistic discussion about germ theory is very complex. I do not subscribe to the fundamentalists on either side.
For example, studies have shown that low levels of "shit bacteria" actually have a protective effect against pathogenic organisms in raw milk cheese:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1472-765X.1991.tb00605.x/abstract
Six strains of Enterococcus faecalis were tested for antimicrobial activity against Listeria monocytogenes. Using the agar spot test, E. faecalis NRIC 1143 and 1144 showed strong activity against all of five strains of L. monocytogenes tested. Antimicrobial activities of these strains were inhibited by some proteolytic enzymes.
http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(94)77055-7/abstract
Antilisterial Activity by Enterococci in a Model Predicting the Temperature Evolution of Taleggio, an Italian Soft Cheese
And there are many more studies than these…
This is a good argument for preferring raw milk cheese over fluid raw milk, as the most effecient means to deliver the delicious nutrients in raw milk to consumers. Cheese also leaves more opportunity for thorough laboratory testing prior to taking the product to market, where fluid raw milk (due to its perishability) is more of a hind-sight thing when looking at lab results. Good artisan cheese also has more flavor IMO.
Anyways, I'm getting off topic…
On the other hand, I think that Miguel is wrong that chemicals are usually the immediate cause of foodborne illness. Chlorine residues, for example, denature the "first contact" proteins, but is immediately neutralized by those proteins in the milk upon contact. There are no chlorine residues beyond that.
On the other hand, I think the skeptics of germ theory are right that the root causes of organisms like E. Coli O157:H7 and 0104:H4 rests squarely on the shoulders of industrialized agriculture and Monsanto/GMO.
It is still up to us to make sure our milk and cheese doesn't have those germs, though.
OPDC and Mike Hulme are negotiating the details of our future relationship.
I am going camping until Monday. Blessing to all.
I'm still getting my head around the idea that there is a potential for a protective effect of "shit" bacteria against pathogenic organisms in raw cheese. In the first abstract you cited, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1472-765X.1991.tb00605.x/abstract, they mention that 2 of the 6 strains of enterococci they tested showed strong activity against all five strains of listeria they tested. Since I don't have access to the full article, what happened with the other 4 strains? Did they have any anti-listeria effect at all?
The last sentence of the second article you cited, http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(94)77055-7/abstract, says:
"Overall, data suggested that a potential existed for use of the antagonistic activity from enterococci for protection of Taleggio cheese during ripening, when L. monocytogenes may often reach dangerous concentrations." Are the authors really suggesting that enterococci be added in to the Taleggio cheese production process during the ripening stage?
This seems to belie your last sentence "It is still up to us to make sure our milk and cheese doesn't [sic] have those germs, though."
French dairy companies actually produce commercial cheese cultures with non-pathogenic strains of enterococcus, as a way to add "raw milk flavor" back to cheese made from pasteurized milk. Unfortunately, US cheesemakers can't get these cultures because FDA will not allow them to be imported.
By my last sentence you quoted above, I was simply saying that it is our responsibility, as food producers, to ensure that our food is not making people sick. Having small amounts of fecal bacteria is not always a bad thing… in fact, it can enhance food safety. We just need to make sure we have the right kind of bacteria, not the wrong kind.
Here are more examples of studies showing how low levels of fecal bacteria actually have protective effects on food safety, and also enhance flavor:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/75/13/4273.pdf
"Enterococcus faecalis WHE 96, a strain isolated from soft cheese based on its anti-Listeria activity… Enterococcal bacteriocins, often termed enterocins, have been widely investigated, mainly because they are active against gram-positive food-borne pathogens, such as Listeria monocytogenes, Staphylococcus aureus, and Bacillus cereus."
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/short/68/7/3560
In the present study, an epidemiological approach with pulsed-field gel electrophoresis (PFGE) was used to type 646 Enterococcus strains which were isolated from a Cheddar-type cheese, the milk it was made from, the feces of cows and humans associated with the cheese-making unit, and the environment, including the milking equipment, the water used on the farm, and the cows' teats. Nine different PFGE patterns, three of Enterococcus casseliflavus, five of Enterococcus faecalis, and one of Enterococcus durans, were found. The same three clones, one of E. faecalis and two of E. casseliflavus, dominated almost all of the milk, cheese, and human fecal samples. The two E. casseliflavus clones were also found in the bulk tank and the milking machine even after chlorination, suggesting that a niche where enterococci could grow was present and that contamination with enterococci begins with the milking equipment.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WFP-4T8HHDC-C&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F28%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1528899845&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=f6b99affede00dc0b1c624973d23a926&searchtype=a
Enterococcus faecium WHE 81, a multi-bacteriocin producer, was tested for its antimicrobial activity on Listeria monocytogenes in Munster cheese, a red smear soft cheese. […] Although, in some instances, L. monocytogenes could survive (<50 CFU g?1) in the presence of E. faecium WHE 81, it was unable to initiate growth. In control samples however, L. monocytogenes counts often exceeded 104 CFU g?1
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf990277m
"Cheddar cheese has previously been shown to be an effective vehicle for delivery of viable cells of a probiotic Enterococcus faecium strain to the gastrointestinal tract…. repeated comments by the commercial grader consistently described the cheeses containing PR88 [enterococcus] as more advanced than the control' and as having better flavor'. These findings indicate that the presence of the PR88 adjunct strain in Cheddar cheese at levels of ?108 cfu/g may positively influence Cheddar flavor."
I agree with this lawyers constructive approach, he states in the above article, progress doesn't mean more and more exploitation and manipulation of nature through technology, it means more and more integrating the human into the entire natural context and learning to live within that context.
Ken Conrad
I appreciate Mary M's asking honest questions about immune systems, bacteria and the germ theory, and conversing calmly instead of simply shutting off or shouting over raw milk information as anti-raw milk proponents too often do.
Fecal material is not necessarily bad… doctors are now doing "fecal transplants" on patients who are extremely ill with ulcerative colitis or C. diff colitis, with complete reversal:
How Microbes Defend and Define Us:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/science/13micro.html?pagewanted=all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy
We all really need to move beyond the "All bacteria in shit is bad" meme. The Amish already know about protective bacteria in poop… when they get a cut, especially on a foot, they slather the cut with fresh cow poop, saying it heals much faster.
Since this seems gross even to me, I include myself in the needing to move beyond the "all bacteria in shit is bad" meme.
Goatmaid, would you also agree it is fair to say that we need to move beyond the "all regulation is bad" meme?
First, @ Sophie,
I was not calling anyone elitist and I doubt you would find anyone who would support that I endorse any sort of smear campaign against small real milk dairies – I am super grateful for the hard work many many many, both now known and many still unknown, have done to restore some real food to our nation. I was making a point that not everyone who wants to access nutrient dense foods has the time or finances to personally know and visit and pickup from their farmer all the time. To require that of people is wrong and reduces the possible supporters of real farms to very few, dependent upon geographic and other considerations
This is not about elitism, but accessibility and affordability. Real food already costs more than hitting the local Wally World mart. Then asking people to drive to a farm weekly or twice per month, when in many urban areas good farms are 90 miles away (With ever rising gas prices), etc. is foolish.
Second, @Milky way, (muddied by the fact that raw milk proponents won't talk about food safety science, and almost always change the subject to politics and conspiracy theories)
I think you have stated this before, and it doesnt become any less false by you reporting it time and time again. In the raw milk and farm circles I live in, and my dealings with WAPF, we are constantly talking about food safety science. Now, we just wont submit to the biased, agenda driven, industry funded pseudo-science that people like David G. have exposed for what it is propaganda. You ever look at the research on eggs, you know the food we ate forever then was demonized and made the cereal industry billions then wow, suddenly, is okay again? Sorry, if that is the science you want us to discuss, we have more important things to do with our time. But you can save your slandering comments for elsewhere.
Per RAWMI, I personally would like to see a voluntary system that was training oriented and state by state or regionally, especially for new farmers who want to get into real milk production and distribution. I also have not liked a great deal of what I have seen spoken of so far about it on here by Bill and a few other comments by Mark. But I also see the need and role for voluntary training and certification of real milk farmers, especially for any sort of wider distribution (beyond just on farm pickup) some readers may be against wider distribution, but then that is a separate issue to discuss
I hope we dont end up with 3 milks I hope we end up with tons of options, depending on the state, region, etc. I think people who have the means and time and desire should gladly be able to get real milk straight from a certified or uncertified farm. And people who want to be in clubs/groups that the farm drops to should have those options and if the clubs want their farmer certified by an outside group (I hope we end up with many RAWMIs personally, that work together with similar goals but decentralized yet united power and purpose), so be it.
And if people can push through an independent inspection program that allows for retail state sales in their state, so be it. I am all for choice and competition, as long as we keep the playing field fair and the information flowing and available I am even for the debate over the information; members of my club get a quarterly real milk email that includes WAPF, the FDA/USDA, Marler, and more, so they can evaluate and decide.
Farmers can choose the size and scale they want to aim for and know what tradeoffs that will involve, consumers can make similar choices.
Per what I have seen to answer the questions of others,
First, it is just a few farms and it is usually first timers. Mainly first timers to farming in general, people who want to get in on the local foods movement and the real milk market. These people dont have a dairy background normally, maybe not even a farming background (driving a combine is not a farming background, IMO, it is an industrial job, like flying an airplane…).
In my limited experience, about -1/2 of these folk worry me, and worry other real milk farmers whom I sent to visit with them and educated them after I was invited the first time.
Also, though, these people are generally very open to learning/being educated, so when my real milk farmer came by and talked about sanitation, safety, etc. they appeared to be open-minded these are people that if a state or region had a real milk course/apprenticeship program to take would be in it in a heartbeat, because contrary to all the maligning I see by some on here, they care deeply, deeply, deeply, about the safety of what they hope to produce.
But my farmer pointed out that being open-minded or educated or sincere isnt enough when it comes to real milk dairying and farming has a learning curve, so personally, I tell people they should never drink real milk from a farm that is in it first 12-18 months of real milk production (longer if the family is completely new to farming). You are dealing with people who dont know when something is wrong with a cow by nature, by just looking at the milk (one family gave us a quart of milk and I immediately knew that milk as NOT okay to drink, very very scary). But my views are informed by experience having visited dozens of farms and butchers and the like across multiple states over the past few years (not all real milk farms) in my work.
On occasion I have been around older dairy folk wanting to get into RM production, and my concerns there are the bad habits conventional dairying sets into them. They, again, merely in my limited experience and not always, dont see dirt the way I and my real milk farmers see it. The level of sanitation my two farms provide is pretty amazing, so amazing that a third generation dairyman went to visit my farmer and then told a friend of mine who took em, I could never be that clean. That is a third generation dairyman being awestruck by a first generation dairyman by my farmer has poured himself into the safety of what he produces in every possible way, and we have supported them financially to make it happen.
Also, since I sit in a unique place, between farmer and consumer (I fit both shoes myself currently, having a farm but not producing my own RM or many other items), I also see first hand how ill-informed or ignorant (in the traditional sense of the word, unknowing) many average people are who are getting into real foods. So both sides of the equation point me towards the value of voluntary programs that can benefit both the farmer and consumer and help take the beast (unfair, ridiculous govt actions) off both groups backs.
So, this is my take and experience and my advice to people and to those wanting to get into real milk production. It takes time to form the habits, build the infrastructure, etc. that is needed for safe real milk production it doesnt happen overnight, nor even in a few months. Now, I also say, if they do testing and results look good, you can visit the farm personally and it is consistently clean, etc. I would personally maybe drink from them sooner. But just like I personally would not hope into a jumbo jet with a first time pilot, I wouldnt do it with real milk. And as soon as you move to wider distribution (such as a club, drops, etc.), you have to have controls/etc. to ensure safety, proper handling, etc.
I think one issue to explore is how various contributors on this blog view real milk some appear to get upset by anyone who suggests real milk is unsafe. From my point of view, and how I handle people interested in real milk, or home birth, or not vaccinating, or ANYTHING all of life is unsafe. Every choice you make has up and down side risks. I make sure people have information from the various sides, tools to evaluate that information, a community to discuss it within, and are willing at the end of it to take responsibility for their choices, as as a wide author once wrote about the giving of advice or telling others what to do, any path may go awry. (Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the ring).
Sorry to be so long, but I have learned in the world of blogs/groups that comments are often easily abused/misconstrued, so I have tried to choose my words and the like carefully.
Your wide-ranging assessment does wonderful job of capturing the complexity and nuanced nature of the issues. I especially appreciate you observations about the nature of the commitment to safety by so many producers of raw dairy. I also think your ideas about the safety challenges facing newbie farmers is probably on target. There is a huge education challenge, as you suggest, and that's hopefully where RAWMI (and RAWMI-type organizations) can perform an important service. They are essential if we are to move past the propaganda and intimidation that are the hallmarks of the current regulatory and enforcement climate.
David
While its likely that you didnt mean to call anyone elitist, you effectively did. I responded to what you wrote:
Also, some of us want this kind of certification for our farms and the farms we want to support, or want to see it available because while romantic, the idea that every farm supporter can be intimately tied into the life of their farmers is a bit elitist.
The problem with a statement like that is that the intimate connection between farmer and consumer is exactly what started getting food back on the right track. Farmers wanted to grow the right things in the right ways and people wanted to eat those right things, so we bypassed the industrial/governmental food system and we got our healthy, safe, sane food back.
While it may seem romantic or elitist, its a pain in the ass to go out looking for food Im willing to eat (while everyone else is out playing or tending their own gardens). I do indeed want some standards BUT not at the expense of the people who have been doing the right thing all along and have brought us this far. I certainly dont want it to turn into a mini-me of the failed industrial/governmental food system and compromise my ability to get healthy, safe, sane food on my own. All I asked is that you (plural) ratchet down the rhetoric and be considerate of the people who have questions and concerns.
You also said:
I think one issue to explore is how various contributors on this blog view real milk some appear to get upset by anyone who suggests real milk is unsafe.
It may appear that way, but its not what Im seeing. I see people who get upset about the automatic assumption that raw milk is unsafe. (Using the word inherently will do that. I see people who get upset about assignment of blame before the facts are in. I see people who get upset about the double standards in dealing with different producers. When something bad happens in the food world, the first thing that is blamed is raw milk. If someone gets sick AND ever consumed raw milk, the investigation ends. It was the raw milk. Game over. The farm gets their assets seized and is effectively put out of business. Not like, for example, DeCoster, who was allowed to initiate a voluntary egg recall despite their aggregious history. Some call it a double standard, some call it a conspiracy. Whatever it is, it happens too often and its plain wrong. I am further asking that you (plural) not label anyone who happens to notice the times when government works in concert with big industry a conspiracy theorist.
I agree with many of the points you make and believe they can be made without using language that marginalizes the people who arent immediately enthusiastic about an idea they have been given little to no information about.
I just want to clarify where I stand on things here.
I agree with you that education is most important. I am a licensed Wisconsin cheese maker, which means that I have done an apprenticeship, have taken numerous courses on dairy safety, passed several exams, and now have continuing education requirements. In 10 years, if I wanted to, I could pursue a master cheese maker's certification.
Wisconsin is the only state in the US which requires cheese makers to undergo a training and licensing program, and the only state with a master cheese maker's certification. Wisconsin also has more dairy farms than any other state in the US, including more small and organic dairy farms, and also a considerable dairy processing infra-structure — mostly cheese-related (90% of Wisconsin milk goes into cheese and butter)
I don't want you to think I'm some kind of Nazi or evil conspirator to oppress dairy farmers. I drink raw milk, and I have sacrificed alot of time, energy, and even relationships in the dairy industry, fighting like h**l for the legalization of raw milk in Wisconsin.
However, as a Wisconsin cheese maker, if I were to take the incredibly ignorant, flippant, and hostile attitude towards food safety that I often see displayed by most on this forum (and in the raw milk movement in general) I would be out of business faster than a UHT system kills a lactococcus lactis bacteria.
FYI — I am writing a business plan right now, for my cheese business which I plan to start in full swing next year, distributing through vegetable CSA's in the Madison area. I am putting this business together on a shoe-string budget. Yet as a cheese maker in Southern Wisconsin, I am going to be subject to a more onerous regulatory burden than just about anyone else on this forum except for Mark McAfee. I simply cannot afford to not be on top of my game when it comes to understanding the scientific and the legal aspects of dairy regulation.
I believe that the complete hostility which is displayed here towards any kind of voluntary certification agency, is symptomatic of the deeper problems in American society — our obsession with individualism and consumerism, and an almost religious belief in the infallibility of the free market. We can see how this has done for us so far — FTCLDF keeps losing in court, and for good reason. Food safety is not something to be taken lightly.
We need to start learning to draw the distinction between GOOD regulation and BAD regulation. We are so often bombarded with examples of bad regulation, because of the hostility of the powers-that-be towards raw milk, that we forget there is such a thing as good, helpful, scale-appropriate regulation.
You'll have to excuse my frustration with most of the commenters on this blog. Clearly, there is a lot of education which needs to be done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunodeficiency
"a state in which the immune system's ability to fight infectious disease is compromised or entirely absent."
Some of the causes/contributions of weakened immune system:
poor diet , Overuse of antibiotics, Chronic infections, Lack of sleep, Heavy metal toxicity, Thimerosal/preservatives toxicity, Low hydrochloric acid (HCl), Chemical exposure, radiation exposure , Drug therapies, Blood transfusion, Organ transplant ,stress (chronic) etc.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barbara-kowalcyk/ecoli-germany-_b_886795.html
"Armchair Epidemiology: The How-To's of Solving a Foodborne Illness Outbreak"
While they are trying to figure out EXACTLY where the bug came from..will they also change the cause/effect–the way crops/animals are raised. Seems the system is broke and all the govt is doing is putting bandaids on that are slowly leaking blood…..
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kerry-trueman/whats-cooking-uncle-sam-n_b_888709.html
A bit of history…
Thomas Paine was an enemy of Christianity ..
between the devout Christian George Washington, who gave credit to the God of Israel for seeing America through its birth pangs, whom do you follow ?
like I said : educate yourself as to what those people were actually saying – versus the myths that have grown up since … fomented by the antichrists who hate the Republic –
in fact, the character of America was Christian from its inception. As even the Supreme Court of the US acknowledged
deny deny deny all you like : the Remnant remains who are sighing and crying all day long for Righteousness …
this Campaign for REAL MILK is an important front as America brings back to mind our heritage : the Bible. Starting with the agricultural and food laws.
the bigger geopolitical picture is that America is being forced to choose between the anti-christ globalist vision, or what suits this nation, the Daughter of Zion. Which side of that equation are you on?