One of the things that continues to amaze me in the debate about raw milk safety is how strong the opinions against raw milk can be in light of how little we know about its role in illness. More often than not, it seems, raw milk is blamed even when it isn’t necessarily the culprit. And when pathogens are detected in raw milk, there may not be illnesses. If there are illnesses, it’s not clear why those who became ill were the chosen few. As we have seen on this blog, the uncertainties about cause are terribly upsetting to those who experience illness.
(By the way, there’s an excellent, well balanced summary about raw milk safety and pasteurization’s impact at the Northeast Organic Farming Association site:)
That’s why stories like those related by Ken Conrad (following my Friday post) ring so true. And that’s why Miguel’s argument about “balance” and “natural laws” is so appealing–on an instinctive level. Let’s trust in nature, which tends to keep things in balance, and illness won’t be a problem, or at least won’t be the problem it is in much of our society. Then Elizabeth McInerney says, sounds great, but no E.coli around my kids.
I think this gets at much of the conflict around raw milk. There are lots of otherwise clear thinking people (and I’m not focusing on Elizabeth) who feel, “All that natural systems stuff is great, but when it comes to my family and me, just keep the bad stuff away.” They ignore the fact that re-jiggering natural systems has unforeseen ramifications, as Miguel and others describe well—most notably, that E.coli 0157:H7 is essentially a man-created pathogen, recently discovered, growing out of over-use of grains and antibiotics in cattle feedlots.
It all reminds me a little of the argument over group homes for retarded and disabled individuals. What a wonderful idea, most people say—to set up special supervised homes so such individuals can live more independent and satisfying lives. But then when the sponsors find a home, neighbors often object. Well, great idea, but not on our block.
I don’t pretend to be above all this. When I’ve had infections, like bronchitis, I’ve wanted nothing more than to receive my antibiotics (though interestingly, the issue hasn’t come up for a few years now).
The problem for many of us is that natural systems aren’t entirely predictable, and our society increasingly demands predictability, elimination of risk, convenience, and complete comfort. Hurricanes and tornadoes are just two obvious examples of the unpredictability. For a spectacular example of how nature can surprise: science texts and nature films teach us that when a group of lions attacks a herd of buffalo or zebras, and pulls out a slow-moving member for food, we are seeing survival of the fittest. But even this order of things isn’t inescapable. There is an amazing video on Youtube that vividly captures the unpredictable aspects of natural systems.
It’s so easy to mess with natural systems, even when we are well intentioned. As Mary McGonigle Martin points out, something as simple as chlorinating swimming pools upsets the balance (which as a swimmer I’ve always sensed, but preferred to ignore). Given the terrible repercussions we are witnessing every day of tampering with natural systems, increasing numbers of us are ever more willing to trust nature’s unpredictability versus man’s.
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Thanks to those who posted information about contributing to the legal defense fund involving Greg Niewendorp. I should have had that.
One of the challenges associated with gathering at Greg’s farm is that we don’t know exactly when the Michigan Department of Agriculture and associated law enforcement types will show up. (And you can be sure they want to maintain uncertainty over this.) I’ll try to stay with this and provide relevant information as I obtain it. These MDA types more than anything else (even having their authority challenged by a single principled farmer) hate the light of inquiry shining on their escapades. So nothing would surprise me–even if they showed up in the middle of the night!
I see that you mention Bronchitis in your post. Is that something that was chronic for you? I had Chronic Bronchitis through my 20s and was told by one of my doctors that I would grow out of it. When I hit my 30s, I made major changes to my diet, as I wrote to you previously, and noticed that not only do I not get sick as often, when I do, its very mild. I haven’t had Bronchitis in years.
While I may have grown out of it as my doctor put it, I believe it is because of the changes I have made to my diet.
The balance in natural systems is far from static, like the electron zipping around a nucleus, once youve stopped it to see it, its already moving on to something else. Maintaining balance takes constant readjustment. Mans attempt at control over natural systems has resulted in numerous failures, and obscured the better approach. Perceiving the subtleties of the natural systems, and encouraging the readjustments, rather than dictating them, is smarter. Going with nature rather than riding roughshod over her, makes balance more frequently achieved.
Germ extermination is roughshod. Seeking to control the whole, by wiping out everything, goes against the grain of Nature, and trivializes the wonder of her diversity. It is this diversity, that moderates the shifts of natural systems. Microbial diversity galvanizes the raw milk drinker and hardens the kids who grow up on farms (or swim in animal waterholes). Exposure and vitality is surely stronger than hiding and destruction (disinfectants cannot be construed as constructive). The most surefire way to keep negative organisms at bay is to create environments where good ones flourish. Stronger through diversity, its easier to keep the bad ones from gaining hold. Sterilization removes all the obstacles from the toughest survivors..
Diversity is the cornerstone of biological farming
The not in my kids gut reaction is to be expected. Fear of the germ makes great television, and even greater profits for P&G. Its what were inundated with everyday. Its a programmed response. Diverse intestinal flora is more worthy of energy and action, but love of microbes is an uphill pitch. It wont make good TV.
The risks involved with living food, far outweigh those from dead food..(especially if you know your farmer).
milkfarmer
I do think there are other ways to keep manage pool bacteria (UV & cultures?) but not being a swimming pool owner I haven’t paid sufficient attention, plus I’m sure the retrofitting of water treatment processes isn’t an inconsequential matter. But we do have a HOA neighborhood pool that we use (especially my son) so I guess I need to look into this more thoroughly.
I had also understood that lots of these water theme parks are sources of bacterial illnesses in kids.
I’m not sure I had chronic bronchitis, but about once every year to two years, I would get it, receive antibiotics, and live with a lingering cough for a few months. That pattern has persisted through my adult life…until 4-5 years ago, when I also made major changes in my diet (eliminating sugar, more veggies/juicing and, last year or so, raw milk/kefir). Then, like you, a couple of minor illnesses that I feared might develop into brochitis, but just passed.
Anna,
The chlorination relates to the bronchitis thing as well…About 20 years ago, during one of my bronchitis episodes, I had a chest X-ray for pneumonia, and while negative, the radiologist commented, "Your lungs look like smoker’s lungs." I had never smoked, but I did swim in an indoor pool 3-5 times a week. I immediately asked, "Gee, could it have something to do with swimming and breathing in chlorine fumes?" I remember the radiologist shaking his head, as if it was a silly question.
Some years later, when I had reduced my swimming (to 1-2 times/week), I had another chest X-ray, same reason, and inquired about looks of my lungs. "Look fine," my doctor said. But it wouldn’t surprise me at all that chlorine does a number in all kinds of ways we can’t anticipate.
Chlorinated chemicals, which took off following WWII, are one of the huge environmental burdens that we carry. CFC’s (chlorinated fluorocarbons) destroy the ozone. TCE (trichloroethylene) was used to remove oil in industrial processes and is a very mobile, persistent and nasty pollutant. The pungent smell of "perc" (perchloroethylene) is what comes back with your clothes from the dry cleaners (best to hang them out before wearing or storing). The list goes on and on.
These are some of the prices we pay for highly centralized, massive society, including water purification/distribution systems. Give me good old well water any day. As noted in one of the responses to Ken’s post, his twins’ being raised on well water probably contributed to the challenging of their immune systems, and their subsequent health. Hey, there’s a good reason for kids to eat dirt!
You may be referring to a post I made a few months back (July 10). I found it by using the blog search engine. Here’s the relevant paragraph:
There are many and myriad illustrations of unintended negative consequences from well-intentioned actions. Everyone can recite one or another. Heres one possible example indirectly related to our current discussion: Swimming pool chlorination. It’s a great idea, right? Chlorine pool disinfection is a virtually universal practice, and undoubtedly prevents some disease transmission. But chlorine is a xenoestrogen, and has been implicated as a cause of endometriosis, ectopic pregnancies, and early first menstruation (which in turn increases the risk of breast cancer). Breathing chlorine is apparently particularly risky, and since vaporized chlorine is most concentrated at the waters surface (along with swimmers noses) and can increase with splashing, well, you get the idea. The point is that we simply do not know, and often never even suspect, the damage we cause with our solutions. (By the way, despite widespread chlorine use there have been several episodes of pool-associated O157:H7 infection in the United States.)
Don’t know if that’s what you’re talking about, but maybe it will help.
Dave
I was taking off from your desire to do away with E.coli 0157:H7–suggesting that once you make "exceptions" to natural order, there are often unintended consequences.. Probably not the most elegant way for me to state it.
Of course, no one I have mentioned this to (other moms with swimming kids) has heard of problems with absorbing or breathing chlorine from swimming pools (I’m not surprised) and I get the "Anna’s crazy ideas" look again. Good thing I have a thick skin ;-).
1. I mix a probiotic in a little yogurt (a couple of tablespoons) Its easy for him to take.
2. Rinsing off before and after swimming, we do it with the hose. No rinsing, no swimming
3. The EBSOM salt cream is easy to applythey suggest the back or fatty areas on the body. A scoop is provided with the cream. I use a couple of scoops.
4. The EBSOM salt bathI have a T.V. in our master bedroom. He can see the TV from the bath tub. Hell sit in there for hour watching Cartoon Network.
Just curious, if you use city water, do you have a whole house water filter to remove the chlorine from your water? I’ve been thinking about looking into getting one. I ran across a recommendation for these filters when I was doing some water heater replacement research.